Impact of Lions experience for England going forwards?

[Digby]

Hill is an odd one. He makes so many daft mistakes you'd think he's easily got so much improvement because to iron out those mistakes should basically take nothing, but he might just be a bit of a Jonny May in the forwards, so will it be space cadet and done or work with outstanding diligence to take advantage of some excellent physical gifts? Really no idea, but there is potential

[Scrumhead]

That’s fair. Even if all he did was cut out the dumb penalties and reckless clear outs, it would still be a significant improvement.

[Spiffy]

Well I don’t think it’s his fault he wasn’t picked for the tests. You could argue he didn’t show enough in training, but Gatland’s tactics were never going to lend themselves to the way Simmonds plays so to be honest, I don’t really know why he was picked in the first place? A number of us said at the time that it was at least partially motivated by the opportunity to troll Eddie and the way it worked out suggests there might be an element of truth to that.

As for yesterday’s game, I’m not really sure what Simmonds could have done really? His impact was reliant on him getting the ball and he just didn’t. There might be an argument to say he didn’t go looking for it enough, but I think that’s harsh. Let’s not forget that the Boks we’re trying to squeeze the life out of the game at that point and the Lions didn’t have the ball for a good chunk of the time he was on the pitch.

I’m a fan of Simmonds, but I’ve always questioned his effectiveness outside of the Exeter gameplan and I think he was always on a hiding to nothing here. I never thought he’d make the test team and his best shot was being a hero of the bench which was always fairly unlikely IMO.

TBH, his best moment was in the SA 22 when he combined with LCD's pick and go to go 5 hard metres forward in the Exeter fashion. Brought the Exeter gameplan in through just two players and it was highly effective - had no right to make those metres and it knocked the South Africans back far and fast enough that Mako was unlucky not to be held up. Unfortunately, then we had the comedy scrum where despite three consecutive SA offences, the ref gave reset, reset, penalty against Sinckler, and Simmonds didn't get the chance to do it again.

Puja

It sometimes feels like the metres that Simmonds regularly makes in close quarters around the ruck don't count in the same way as if others did it. Saying that, I do rate him as an option but I don't actually have much faith he'd be that effective in an Eddie team, rightly or wrongly.

I hadn't really thought about the impact of this tour on Eddie. What does he take from it in terms of his RWC PTSD?

I would say the tour will have little or no effect on Eddie Jones. He has always been a contrary little man and will continue to do just what he wants. The mediocre Faz will continue to rule the roost at 10 or 12 until he retires or Jones is fired. For Jones to do otherwise would be to admit he's been wrong. Don't be surprised to see Marcus Smith get the cold shoulder just because Gatland has shown he rates him highly.

[Danno]

[Digby]

That’s fair. Even if all he did was cut out the dumb penalties and reckless clear outs, it would still be a significant improvement.

He can also get confused as to which leg reaches back at a ruck to protect the 9, he can forget he needs to stay at a ruck and not run off for the next phase assuming the current phase is just over... it's really this sort of stuff that shouldn't take any extra effort which if done correctly would as whole make a big difference. And it seems like it should be possible, but I am reminded of a hooker I used to play with who on our scrum ball used to forget to indicate when he wanted the ball in, you could talk about it before the match, even before the scrum, and then down the scrum would go and white noise would descend and he'd forget

[Scrumhead]

Yep. Attention to detail stuff that is important if he wants to be an England regular.

[Danno]

You would hope that someone.... did wurzel gummidge have a mentor? Doesn't matter - you would hope that someone is pointing these things out

[Digby]

There is no way it isn't getting pointed out. Thus the wonder how much it simply goes in one ear and out the other

He less needs to be told and more needs a thinking process when under pressure, and one that doesn't slow him too much. It could be he's found his level with Exeter, which would be a shame

[jngf]

You would hope that someone.... did wurzel gummidge have a mentor? Doesn't matter - you would hope that someone is pointing these things out

That would be the crow man?

[FKAS]

TBH, his best moment was in the SA 22 when he combined with LCD's pick and go to go 5 hard metres forward in the Exeter fashion. Brought the Exeter gameplan in through just two players and it was highly effective - had no right to make those metres and it knocked the South Africans back far and fast enough that Mako was unlucky not to be held up. Unfortunately, then we had the comedy scrum where despite three consecutive SA offences, the ref gave reset, reset, penalty against Sinckler, and Simmonds didn't get the chance to do it again.

Puja

It sometimes feels like the metres that Simmonds regularly makes in close quarters around the ruck don't count in the same way as if others did it. Saying that, I do rate him as an option but I don't actually have much faith he'd be that effective in an Eddie team, rightly or wrongly.

I hadn't really thought about the impact of this tour on Eddie. What does he take from it in terms of his RWC PTSD?

I would say the tour will have little or no effect on Eddie Jones. He has always been a contrary little man and will continue to do just what he wants. The mediocre Faz will continue to rule the roost at 10 or 12 until he retires or Jones is fired. For Jones to do otherwise would be to admit he's been wrong. Don't be surprised to see Marcus Smith get the cold shoulder just because Gatland has shown he rates him highly.

Rated Smith so highly Gatland selected an 80% fit Biggar and chronically out of form Farrell over him. Smith played one mid week game and then was a body at training. Shame as we saw what Russell offered off the bench had Smith been there to come on off the bench in the second test we may have put up more of a fight.

[Danno]

It sometimes feels like the metres that Simmonds regularly makes in close quarters around the ruck don't count in the same way as if others did it. Saying that, I do rate him as an option but I don't actually have much faith he'd be that effective in an Eddie team, rightly or wrongly.

I hadn't really thought about the impact of this tour on Eddie. What does he take from it in terms of his RWC PTSD?

I would say the tour will have little or no effect on Eddie Jones. He has always been a contrary little man and will continue to do just what he wants. The mediocre Faz will continue to rule the roost at 10 or 12 until he retires or Jones is fired. For Jones to do otherwise would be to admit he's been wrong. Don't be surprised to see Marcus Smith get the cold shoulder just because Gatland has shown he rates him highly.

Rated Smith so highly Gatland selected an 80% fit Biggar and chronically out of form Farrell over him. Smith played one mid week game and then was a body at training. Shame as we saw what Russell offered off the bench had Smith been there to come on off the bench in the second test we may have put up more of a fight.

I think there's some degree of truth in the rumour that Finn was told to play his own game by Townsend as he went on, purely by dint of what happened between minute 10 and minute 40. Wouldn't mind seeing the alternate universe where Smith got a similar opportunity in the second test

[FKAS]

I would say the tour will have little or no effect on Eddie Jones. He has always been a contrary little man and will continue to do just what he wants. The mediocre Faz will continue to rule the roost at 10 or 12 until he retires or Jones is fired. For Jones to do otherwise would be to admit he's been wrong. Don't be surprised to see Marcus Smith get the cold shoulder just because Gatland has shown he rates him highly.

Rated Smith so highly Gatland selected an 80% fit Biggar and chronically out of form Farrell over him. Smith played one mid week game and then was a body at training. Shame as we saw what Russell offered off the bench had Smith been there to come on off the bench in the second test we may have put up more of a fight.

I think there's some degree of truth in the rumour that Finn was told to play his own game by Townsend as he went on, purely by dint of what happened between minute 10 and minute 40. Wouldn't mind seeing the alternate universe where Smith got a similar opportunity in the second test

I don't think Finn did play his own game. I think he played within the attacking structure that was there he just didn't allow the blitz defence to phase him. As soon as that first kick pass went in the Boks defensive line speed fell off a little as they started watching for the out the box thinking. Finn took the attacking structure and gave it some of his magic.