New Concussion report

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Oakboy
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Re: New Concussion report

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Which Tyler wrote:
Gloskarlos wrote:To be fair to the RFU - any course you go on, or have been on since around September last year has had a heavy Activate promotion. Been adopted pretty well as far as I can see around local clubs to me. The trick is to make the exercises a little more fun by incorporating them into a game or a competition, otherwise players can find them a little tedious.
At Tewkesbury, I've been banging my head against a brick wall for a couple of years now - Head Coach is of the "Shit happens, there's nothing you can do to reduce injuries" mindset, and has percolated that down.
I've got a couple of my patients doing it off their own bat, and my nephews have agreed to start as well, whilst my brother has agreed to bring it up at Kingsbridge.

As you say though, making it fun, and ideally, fin and slightly competitive is a huge factor in boosting participation.

Personal anecdote time - I used to treat, and play against a promising young squash player (England age-grades). When he was 12, I put him on an exercise programme that was pretty similar to Activate (and Pilates), in that it was a bunch of rehab exercises given before any injury, with the hope being that it would help reduce severity of any injuries, as he'd have a head-start on any rehab. He went from 12 to 20 without missing a single tournament due to injury and earned himself a reputation for being indestructible - despite being a bit of a sick=note pre-puberty (which is why I did it in the first place). N=1 and all that, and it went significantly further than Activate, and tailored to the individual, but still.

WT, some 10 or so years back when I was involved with training young squash players I became convinced by a guy who condemned stretching without warming up first. His background was football and he reckoned stretching cold muscles led to lots of pulls/tears. Is that still the modern thinking?
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Re: New Concussion report

Post by Puja »

Oakboy wrote:
Which Tyler wrote:
Gloskarlos wrote:To be fair to the RFU - any course you go on, or have been on since around September last year has had a heavy Activate promotion. Been adopted pretty well as far as I can see around local clubs to me. The trick is to make the exercises a little more fun by incorporating them into a game or a competition, otherwise players can find them a little tedious.
At Tewkesbury, I've been banging my head against a brick wall for a couple of years now - Head Coach is of the "Shit happens, there's nothing you can do to reduce injuries" mindset, and has percolated that down.
I've got a couple of my patients doing it off their own bat, and my nephews have agreed to start as well, whilst my brother has agreed to bring it up at Kingsbridge.

As you say though, making it fun, and ideally, fin and slightly competitive is a huge factor in boosting participation.

Personal anecdote time - I used to treat, and play against a promising young squash player (England age-grades). When he was 12, I put him on an exercise programme that was pretty similar to Activate (and Pilates), in that it was a bunch of rehab exercises given before any injury, with the hope being that it would help reduce severity of any injuries, as he'd have a head-start on any rehab. He went from 12 to 20 without missing a single tournament due to injury and earned himself a reputation for being indestructible - despite being a bit of a sick=note pre-puberty (which is why I did it in the first place). N=1 and all that, and it went significantly further than Activate, and tailored to the individual, but still.

WT, some 10 or so years back when I was involved with training young squash players I became convinced by a guy who condemned stretching without warming up first. His background was football and he reckoned stretching cold muscles led to lots of pulls/tears. Is that still the modern thinking?
I was always told that static stretching before exercise was bad because of the pulls/tears, but moving stretching where it's built into smooth movements was good. I don't know whether there is science behind that - my source was also "some guy from about 10 years ago" as well.

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Re: New Concussion report

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Mellsblue wrote:I have an end of season coaches meeting in a couple of weeks when I will have this on the agenda, and I’d like to be well prepared. What’s the science behind it, ie why does it reduce incidents of concussion?
Fundamentally, it's about both strength and control of muscles that can help limit injury.

Take an ankle, for example. Most common injury is a sprain caused by overstretching the ankle, or "turning it" / "going over it" in common speak.
If you train up the ankle's sense of where it is in space, and its internal stretch receptors, then it can detect that stretch before it's too late, and fire the protective muscles.
If those muscles are also strong enough, then it prevents the injury happening in the first place.

The muscles that control the ankle can be as strong as you like, but if you (for example) can't stand on one leg with your eyes closed for more than 10 seconds without falling over, there's no way in hell, you'll be able to use them in time (or in a proportionate manner) because the neurology just isn't there.

Now, for an ankle, pretty much everyone's muscles will be strong enough (though most in rugby could do with more training anyway - a stronger muscle has greater capacity, and typically has greater control at sub-maximal effort, with some nuance on how it's trained), but without that control, they can't prevent injuries.



For a neck, for example, the muscles probably aren't strong enough either - because, aside from professionals and some dedicated props - who the hell strength-trains their neck muscle regularly? Most people will also have poor control and knowledge of how stretched the joints all are (simple test is to strap a laser pointer to the head; individual centres it on a target on the wall, closes their eyes, looks left, looks right, and tries to find the same starting position before opening their eyes). The neck strength and co-ordination are the ones that can help reduce concussion, rather than ankle sprains, as the head is less likely to flop around uselessly in a whiplash manner after a tackle or head contact.



For the hamstring, for example (where the Nordic Curls Activate incorporates reduce hamstring strains by about 80% IIRC - I should be able to find the individual research if you want it) - most hamstring injuries occur when the muscle is controlling it's own lengthening (eccentric contraction), so learning to do that with better strength and better control, reduces those injuries massively.



TL:DR: You could always present it the same way I mentioned for my squash kid. These are (more or less) the exercises a physio would have you doing if injured. If you do them before the injury then A] you reduce your chance of being injured, and B] you boost your expected recovery, as you've had a head-start on the rehab.
You could also easily take that research I linked on page 1 showing 25% reduction in match-day injuries and 60% reduction in training injuries by doing Activate, typically once a week. Doing it more often had a bigger effect (though the numbers mean that that's a low-confidence statement)
Oakboy wrote:WT, some 10 or so years back when I was involved with training young squash players I became convinced by a guy who condemned stretching without warming up first. His background was football and he reckoned stretching cold muscles led to lots of pulls/tears. Is that still the modern thinking?
It's been a while since I looked into this specifically, but...

It used to be that "everyone knows" stretching before challenging prevents injury.
It was then found to be bullshit, and that it slightly increases the risk, for some injuries and some stretches in some circumstances.
So, in trying to counter the "everyone knows" narrative, people went OTT and laid into stretches, and the baby got thrown out with the bathwater (this sort of thing happens a lot, in all walks of life TBH - if you decide that your previous bias what wrong, humans have a tendency to become "reborn" in the opposite direction for a bit, and typically then mellow their response after a few years of that - and yes, I'm guilty of this myself).

In reality, and in my opinion... pre-event stretching is pretty much useless, you want repeated contraction in the muscle to activate it (both in general, and task-specific), speed up it's responses, and get the blood flowing to it a little more. Stretching in part changes the length of the muscle from what the brain thinks it is (which is kinda the point of stretching) meaning it doesn't have quite the same control, and predisposing to increased injury risk... if stretching is done as the only warm-up for that muscle.
However, the placebo effect is stronger, so if the individual believes that stretching is beneficial, it becomes (mildly) beneficial. If the individual believes that it is harmful, it becomes (slightly more) harmful. If the individual's belief is neutral, then it's a slight increase in injury risk... if the same muscle isn't then warmed up with activation exercises (preferably including all of isometric, concentric, eccentric, and plyometric - if they're going to be used that way in-event).




I hope that answers your questions guys. Though I do have a habit of answering different questions to the ones actually meant, especially if I get on a hobby-horse.
Last edited by Which Tyler on Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Gloskarlos
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Re: New Concussion report

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In essence, better cognitive preparation for bodies being in the right position, with the right muscle groups being engaged, and key joints/limbs warmed up properly, linked to real world rugby motions. The concussion element is not necessarily the lions share, equally high on the pro list are; ankles, knees, hips, neck and shoulders which are also targeted by Activate to ensure that players have good body positions and again are engaging the right muscle groups. As you coach the activate sessions there does need to be a bit of teaching that goes with it, so they are not just going through the motions. I.e. a zombie squat - just as important that the head chest and neck are aligned and upright as it is about the thigh workout. Bridge thrusts - making sure the push and extension comes from the Glutes and not the lower back etc. Plant and Cut exercise - aligning the body in a balanced, deliberately paused position before pushing off on one foot, ankle, knee and hip aligned.
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Re: New Concussion report

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Puja wrote:I was always told that static stretching before exercise was bad because of the pulls/tears, but moving stretching where it's built into smooth movements was good. I don't know whether there is science behind that - my source was also "some guy from about 10 years ago" as well.
Sorry, this came up whilst I was typing.

Yes... kinda... but it's more complicated than that.
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Re: New Concussion report

Post by Gloskarlos »

Which beat me to it - but this was in response to your post Mells
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Re: New Concussion report

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Gloskarlos wrote:In essence, better cognitive preparation for bodies being in the right position, with the right muscle groups being engaged, and key joints/limbs warmed up properly, linked to real world rugby motions. The concussion element is not necessarily the lions share, equally high on the pro list are; ankles, knees, hips, neck and shoulders which are also targeted by Activate to ensure that players have good body positions and again are engaging the right muscle groups. As you coach the activate sessions there does need to be a bit of teaching that goes with it, so they are not just going through the motions. I.e. a zombie squat - just as important that the head chest and neck are aligned and upright as it is about the thigh workout. Bridge thrusts - making sure the push and extension comes from the Glutes and not the lower back etc. Plant and Cut exercise - aligning the body in a balanced, deliberately paused position before pushing off on one foot, ankle, knee and hip aligned.
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Re: New Concussion report

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Great thread, thanks folks.
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Re: New Concussion report

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Which Tyler wrote:I hope that answers your questions guys. Though I do have a habit of answering different questions to the ones actually meant, especially if I get on a hobby-horse.
Don't apologise for giving us a screed - never sad to hear a long response from someone who knows what they're talking about.

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Re: New Concussion report

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Puja wrote:Don't apologise for giving us a screed - never sad to hear a long response from someone who knows what they're talking about.
No apologies offered - I've just learnt that when I find myself doing this, I need to check that I've actually answered the question, rather than gone off on a tangent.
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Re: New Concussion report

Post by Puja »

Which Tyler wrote:
Puja wrote:Don't apologise for giving us a screed - never sad to hear a long response from someone who knows what they're talking about.
No apologies offered - I've just learnt that when I find myself doing this, I need to check that I've actually answered the question, rather than gone off on a tangent.
Also helps if the person reading actually parses your sentences properly as well! Thank you for the info, basically.

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Re: New Concussion report

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Which Tyler wrote: Fundamentally, it's about both strength and control of muscles that can help limit injury.

Take an ankle, for example. Most common injury is a sprain caused by overstretching the ankle, or "turning it" / "going over it" in common speak.
If you train up the ankle's sense of where it is in space, and its internal stretch receptors, then it can detect that stretch before it's too late, and fire the protective muscles.
If those muscles are also strong enough, then it prevents the injury happening in the first place.

The muscles that control the ankle can be as strong as you like, but if you (for example) can't stand on one leg with your eyes closed for more than 10 seconds without falling over, there's no way in hell, you'll be able to use them in time (or in a proportionate manner) because the neurology just isn't there.

Now, for an ankle, pretty much everyone's muscles will be strong enough (though most in rugby could do with more training anyway - a stronger muscle has greater capacity, and typically has greater control at sub-maximal effort, with some nuance on how it's trained), but without that control, they can't prevent injuries.



For a neck, for example, the muscles probably aren't strong enough either - because, aside from professionals and some dedicated props - who the hell strength-trains their neck muscle regularly? Most people will also have poor control and knowledge of how stretched the joints all are (simple test is to strap a laser pointer to the head; individual centres it on a target on the wall, closes their eyes, looks left, looks right, and tries to find the same starting position before opening their eyes). The neck strength and co-ordination are the ones that can help reduce concussion, rather than ankle sprains, as the head is less likely to flop around uselessly in a whiplash manner after a tackle or head contact.



For the hamstring, for example (where the Nordic Curls Activate incorporates reduce hamstring strains by about 80% IIRC - I should be able to find the individual research if you want it) - most hamstring injuries occur when the muscle is controlling it's own lengthening (eccentric contraction), so learning to do that with better strength and better control, reduces those injuries massively.



TL:DR: You could always present it the same way I mentioned for my squash kid. These are (more or less) the exercises a physio would have you doing if injured. If you do them before the injury then A] you reduce your chance of being injured, and B] you boost your expected recovery, as you've had a head-start on the rehab.
You could also easily take that research I linked on page 1 showing 25% reduction in match-day injuries and 60% reduction in training injuries by doing Activate, typically once a week. Doing it more often had a bigger effect (though the numbers mean that that's a low-confidence statement)
Cheers.
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Re: New Concussion report

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I miss the like function. Thank you
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Re: New Concussion report

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They probably should’ve checked the fixture list before scheduling when this is aired but….

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Re: New Concussion report

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I've been following the Steve Thompson situation and it is fucking tragic. But it is also real, and not a one off. Public health data for professional sport is very difficult to come by but I'd really like to see how modern refereeing of collisions and injuries has impacted on long term cognitive health for players. That is the data that should be driving the rules, and hopefully is.
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Re: New Concussion report

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Re: New Concussion report

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-61269585

Website for the not-for-profit in the article:
https://loveofthegame.org/
Last edited by Mellsblue on Mon May 02, 2022 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Concussion report

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Re: New Concussion report

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So good it was worth posting twice.
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Re: New Concussion report

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Mellsblue wrote:So good it was worth posting twice.
Oops, sorry.
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Re: New Concussion report

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These are indeed useful metrics but one cannot help feeling they are designed to triage individuals at prior risk rather than addressing possible increased incidence of dementia as a result of trauma from your day job in pro rugby. Repeat trauma to individuals that have existing risk markers is going to result in a pretty predictable outcome. What we want to know is how increased is the risk for dementia in ostensibly healthy individuals within an age demographic. I'd like to add that any clinical study worth its salt needs to factor in gender, and if the generation of these metrics are not being applied to women also then the results will have an unintentional bias. Women are disproportionately represented in Alzheimer's, for example (women do live longer than men on average, but there is evidence for fundamental sex-specific metabolic factors at play). Most of the real time shear forces that those vids propose to collect data on are known quantities in neurology. Animal studies have absolutely validated this. There needs to be a treatment option for players that get their bell rung, and there needs to be longitudinal data on outcomes following that treatment. I don't have an answer to that but the cataloguing of exposure to risk in the absence of data quantifying the impact of treatment/mitigation of risk is going to become quickly redundant. Rugby needs effective treatment protocols to be coupled with the data collection process. Resveratrol, N-acetyl carnitine...whatever, but on the face of it, getting smashed in the head is bad is all this is going to state.
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Re: New Concussion report

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Which Tyler wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:So good it was worth posting twice.
Oops, sorry.
No worries. It’s pretty cool/exciting news….. or at least it was until the Kiwi killjoy weighed in :D
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Re: New Concussion report

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The IRB are extending the standdown period after failing an HIA to 12 days, which will rule out stupid situations like a player getting clearly knocked out one weekend and being allowed to play the next: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ons-change

About godsdamned time.

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