England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

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FKAS
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by FKAS »

Mellsblue wrote:Not sure I’m as hyped about Steward as everyone else. He’s world class under the high ball but not sure what else he currently brings to the party. Did he beat the first man at any point on Saturday? At this stage of his development, and he’s of an age where he clearly has plenty of room for improvement, he seems like a taller Mike Brown with better hands but less elusive. Let’s also not forget he was skinned by a singer from N-Dubz and had to be rescued by Lawes. I may be biased, but Furbank brings an awful lot more in attack than Steward, for me. It seems a bit like the Ford/Smith v Farrell debate but at 15 rather than 10. I’d argue that you could pick Steward if picking Smith but should pick Furbank if not.
The "Singer from N-Dubz" next carry after the near try left Underhill requiring medical attention. I don't think there's many better steps in rugby currently than Telusa Vienau. Underhill England's best tackle effectively got stepped in a space the size of a phone box and bounced his shoulder off TV's shoulder to add injury to embarrassment. TV had an age to size up Steward's covering tackle, I'd have like to see Steward get more purchase on the tackle but at least he slowed him down.

What Steward adds in attack is something we otherwise lack significantly in the back three, including if Furbank is there and that's the ability to straighten the line. What Steward does isn't flashy, he either straightens and moves the ball into space or he straightens and gives a target for the forwards to ruck and start the next phase with a bit of momentum. He might need to add more to his game but at 20 that will come.

Furbank for me is reminiscent of Daly, good all round footballer but not actually got an outstanding fullbacks skillset.
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Puja
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Puja »

Mellsblue wrote:Not sure I’m as hyped about Steward as everyone else. He’s world class under the high ball but not sure what else he currently brings to the party. Did he beat the first man at any point on Saturday? At this stage of his development, and he’s of an age where he clearly has plenty of room for improvement, he seems like a taller Mike Brown with better hands but less elusive. Let’s also not forget he was skinned by a singer from N-Dubz and had to be rescued by Lawes. I may be biased, but Furbank brings an awful lot more in attack than Steward, for me. It seems a bit like the Ford/Smith v Farrell debate but at 15 rather than 10. I’d argue that you could pick Steward if picking Smith but should pick Furbank if not.
I'll note that Telusa Veainu is one of the most elusive runners in world rugby. I'd've been happier if Steward had brought him down, but I don't think there's any shame in getting done by him when you're having to sprint full tilt to even reach him.

He's definitely not the finished article in attack, but he is a poweful, direct runner, who can pick a great line and, right now, I'll take that if we're playing Smith at 10. If we're playing Farrell, then we might need a bit of creativity at 15 instead, but I wouldn't undersell the value of being ridiculously domineering in the air. Just being able to entirely shut down a major part of an opposition game is a weapon in and of itself - I remember Kearney et al doing it to us and I'd quite like to experience it from the other side. Very keen to see him vs SA.

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FKAS
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by FKAS »

Puja wrote:
FKAS wrote:
Scrumhead wrote:
I’m curious to see if Curry showing he’s not an 8 coupled with the potential injury to a Underhill and the return of Simmonds and Chick actually means anything …

My preferred back row is Curry, Underhill and Dombrandt, but I wouldn’t actually mind seeing if Lawes, Curry and Simmonds could work.
It's not like Eddie has brought Chick and Simmonds into the team for the weekend it's just that they are still part of the 34 man squad for training. They'll be back at their clubs by Wednesday when the squad is streamlined for the weekend.

Only Lynagh I think is out and that's because he was injury cover for Farrell.

If Underhill is injured I'd like to see Martin given a go at 6 as he's a bit like a younger version of Lawes except without the rather old fashioned values.

Genge, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Lawes
Martin, Dombrandt, Curry

That should work, has the right balance.
Martin's way too green to be starting. He's promising, but he's not got the years of nous to be able to apply his skills properly -there's a reason he's behind Liebenberg for Leicester.

While I'm not usually a fan of Lawes at 6, nor am I a fan of Ewels or Hill at 5, Lawes has been playing blindside exclusively for Northampton for the past season and a half. At this point, it's true to say that having him at lock would be shifting him out of his club position. If Underhill's out, then he is the obvious choice to stay at 6.

Puja
Got to bring the youth in at some point. Having said that if Underhill is fit I'd go Underhill/Curry/Dombrandt. Australia don't have the biggest pack but it is mobile and the workrate and mobile physicality of Martin will fit this game. I'd want more weight in the row for South Africa the week after.

At the minute we are seeing some young backs get opportunity's but not much in the forwards. Dombrandt needs to get some starts and I'd like to see Blamire enter the fray no later than 60mins. The squad needs refreshing and these friendlies are the best chance to start that process.

I think last season Lawes played in the row for Saints as Isiekwe played 6. This season he has played 6 mainly because Saints struggle to recruit backrows but have a smorgasbord of lock talent to choose from somehow. He can do a job at 6 but I prefer what he brings at lock.
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Puja
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Puja »

FKAS wrote:
Puja wrote:
FKAS wrote:
It's not like Eddie has brought Chick and Simmonds into the team for the weekend it's just that they are still part of the 34 man squad for training. They'll be back at their clubs by Wednesday when the squad is streamlined for the weekend.

Only Lynagh I think is out and that's because he was injury cover for Farrell.

If Underhill is injured I'd like to see Martin given a go at 6 as he's a bit like a younger version of Lawes except without the rather old fashioned values.

Genge, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Lawes
Martin, Dombrandt, Curry

That should work, has the right balance.
Martin's way too green to be starting. He's promising, but he's not got the years of nous to be able to apply his skills properly -there's a reason he's behind Liebenberg for Leicester.

While I'm not usually a fan of Lawes at 6, nor am I a fan of Ewels or Hill at 5, Lawes has been playing blindside exclusively for Northampton for the past season and a half. At this point, it's true to say that having him at lock would be shifting him out of his club position. If Underhill's out, then he is the obvious choice to stay at 6.

Puja
Got to bring the youth in at some point. Having said that if Underhill is fit I'd go Underhill/Curry/Dombrandt. Australia don't have the biggest pack but it is mobile and the workrate and mobile physicality of Martin will fit this game. I'd want more weight in the row for South Africa the week after.

At the minute we are seeing some young backs get opportunity's but not much in the forwards. Dombrandt needs to get some starts and I'd like to see Blamire enter the fray no later than 60mins. The squad needs refreshing and these friendlies are the best chance to start that process.

I think last season Lawes played in the row for Saints as Isiekwe played 6. This season he has played 6 mainly because Saints struggle to recruit backrows but have a smorgasbord of lock talent to choose from somehow. He can do a job at 6 but I prefer what he brings at lock.
The difference is that I don't think the forwards are ready. The likes of Steward, Malins, Radwan, etc are all starting and excelling for their clubs, whereas Martin and Blamire are very definitely on the bench for their clubs (and there's argument that Martin wouldn't make it onto Leicester's bench if everyone was fit). That's not unreasonable, as backs tend to break through earlier than forwards (as playing in the backs is easier and you don't need to understand the game as much), but I'm not convinced either of them should be in the England squad right now and certainly not in the starting XV.

Why do we need to bring in the youth in the forwards anyway? George and LCD are 31 and 28, so they've got plenty of time left and Sam Underhill's the oldest of our flanker options at 25.

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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Danno »

Our first choice pack is very young* if it's
Genge-George-Sinkler
Itoje-Hill
Curry-Billy-Underhill

Swap Billy for an 8 in form that doesn’t have to find and break walls, and Hill for something 6'8" with cognitive power** and I'm happy

*compared to a lot of other packs although I am aware AWJ skews the average to a ridiculous degree
**some trees meet this criteria and that's ok

Median age of what, 27? Young , very young imo
FKAS
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by FKAS »

Puja wrote:
FKAS wrote:
Puja wrote:
Martin's way too green to be starting. He's promising, but he's not got the years of nous to be able to apply his skills properly -there's a reason he's behind Liebenberg for Leicester.

While I'm not usually a fan of Lawes at 6, nor am I a fan of Ewels or Hill at 5, Lawes has been playing blindside exclusively for Northampton for the past season and a half. At this point, it's true to say that having him at lock would be shifting him out of his club position. If Underhill's out, then he is the obvious choice to stay at 6.

Puja
Got to bring the youth in at some point. Having said that if Underhill is fit I'd go Underhill/Curry/Dombrandt. Australia don't have the biggest pack but it is mobile and the workrate and mobile physicality of Martin will fit this game. I'd want more weight in the row for South Africa the week after.

At the minute we are seeing some young backs get opportunity's but not much in the forwards. Dombrandt needs to get some starts and I'd like to see Blamire enter the fray no later than 60mins. The squad needs refreshing and these friendlies are the best chance to start that process.

I think last season Lawes played in the row for Saints as Isiekwe played 6. This season he has played 6 mainly because Saints struggle to recruit backrows but have a smorgasbord of lock talent to choose from somehow. He can do a job at 6 but I prefer what he brings at lock.
The difference is that I don't think the forwards are ready. The likes of Steward, Malins, Radwan, etc are all starting and excelling for their clubs, whereas Martin and Blamire are very definitely on the bench for their clubs (and there's argument that Martin wouldn't make it onto Leicester's bench if everyone was fit). That's not unreasonable, as backs tend to break through earlier than forwards (as playing in the backs is easier and you don't need to understand the game as much), but I'm not convinced either of them should be in the England squad right now and certainly not in the starting XV.

Why do we need to bring in the youth in the forwards anyway? George and LCD are 31 and 28, so they've got plenty of time left and Sam Underhill's the oldest of our flanker options at 25.

Puja
Two reasons, because injuries happen and because competition drives performance. There's also the third reason of plan ahead.

Granted Martin is a long term project but drip feeding him game time now will help bring forward his development and his potential ceiling is very high. Martin is probably the successor to Lawes, not soon but Lawes is getting no younger and has had no luck with injuries. Same with Blamire, continued game time off the bench brings on a young hooker who is similar in style to the two older ones we have. Don't wait for George to retire post RWC and then go "oh shit we have all our eggs in the LCD basket".

The forwards might not be ready for first team regular appearances now, bar maybe Dombrandt, but these friendlies whilst we have a largely fit squad are a good time to ease them in. Can't really ease them in during the 6N bar the Italy game.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Mellsblue »

It’s a low bar if we’re happy that Steward was beaten in his only one on one, straightens the line (which anyone can do) and rarely beats the first man but does always catch the high ball. Sounds like a poor man’s Mike Brown.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Mikey Brown »

Maybe it’s pedantic but calling it a 1 on 1 doesn’t seem quite fair. You watched Veianu in the premiership right? He was clean through.

He can definitely do more overall but he seems to have started from a very strong point. I’m just happy we can look at Malins (or Freeman or I guess Daly?) and have someone like Steward there setting the gold standard of fullback core skills to compete against.

Saying that ‘anyone can’ straighten the line seems a bit disingenuous too. It’s a thing people seek out for a reason. In a backline with the attacking talents we have, Steward currently looks like a nice fit. Maybe we’ll find over time that he’s too limited but I’m very happy he’s emerged.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Oakboy »

I wonder what were Jones's real, sructured goals for the AIs in terms of player development. The irony is that he is probably more interested in bedding in yet another coaching crew. The two issues coincide obviously to bring about the question of how much (if any) say his coaching assistants have in selection/playing style/player development. Which of them might be regarded as the expert in new player development? Presumably, all international coaching set-ups would include one such.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by fivepointer »

I'm not completely sold on Steward but he's certainly worth having a proper look at this season.

Hopefully we'll see more of him as an attacking threat as he establishes himself.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Digby »

I'm not sold on Steward either, but a lot of the problems might be the Leicester wingers, especially the big lad who (understandably) tries to avoid work off the ball, and too he simply lacks experience. I do like his attitude, especially his work off the ball on attack. Whether he's simply got the pace, agility and acceleration that repeats we'll have to wait and see
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by FKAS »

For those that don't remember the TV step from back in his Prem days.



Straightening the line is in theory simple but so few players do it effectively, particularly in this England backline. It was the glaring fault in the last 6N where the entire backline crabbed across the field leaving Ford desperately try to find a working pass whilst the opposition defence knew they could blitz him because of his lack of options. We had genuinely world class wingers getting hit by two or three tacklers in no room that competition.

Puja is correct, Steward isn't the eye catching member of the back three he's the glue that holds it together. Someone else might come through and offer the basics he does but with extra bells and whistles but right now they don't. Heading towards the 6N where the first couple of rounds tend to be played in bad weather conditions and having a fair bit of kicking he's the ideal candidate to bed in. Furbank looked frankly lost when he was in at 15 in the bad weather for England and has had a couple of wobbles for Saints when the weather has turned as well, Steward seems to relish it though.

Furbank I can see being a useful bench option, particularly if he can show he can cover wing in an emergency.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Mellsblue »

I just think we’re setting a low bar and I really disagree that straightening a line is difficult and few in the England team can do it. I’m also not sure he’s any better than other options. Like I said in my initial post, he’s a good young player with plenty of time to round out his game. We just seem to be getting overexcited because he is world class under the high ball. Take that away and I think he just a good young fullback who needs to add a lot to his game. I’m happy for him to have a good run in the side and given the correct mix in the rest of the backs he could, perhaps should, be England’s 15 for a long time. I see it a bit like the Nowell argument - some think he’s the best wing England have whilst others, me included, think he’s far too slow. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by twitchy »

What is the correct amount of excitement we are supposed to show? :?:

:|
:)
:D


I think we are a pretty sensible bunch on here.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Oakboy »

A FB who is solid in every aspect of defence but needs improvement in attack is alright with me. That is more likely to work at the top level long-term than doing it the other way round - bending an ultra-attacking player into being a top defender (such as was tried with Daly).

Steward needs a dozen sessions with Brown concentrating on beating the first defender and he could step up a level. From what I see his handling could quickly surpass Brown's too.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by p/d »

I am a huge fan of Mallins, a very intelligent player. That said Steward has definitely got the goods to nail down the spot. He looked very assured in our new American soccer kit and some of his play was top notch

Bigger challenges to come but nothing to suggest he won’t be up for it.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Mikey Brown »

Is anybody saying Steward is a fantastic international player right now? I'm not sure who/what exactly you're disagreeing with.

"a good young fullback who needs to add a lot to his game. I’m happy for him to have a good run in the side and given the correct mix in the rest of the backs he could, perhaps should, be England’s 15 for a long time" I thought this was pretty much the consensus anyway? I'm just much more interested in Steward and Malins (if he continues to be a 15) fighting it out than continuing with Daly there.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Mellsblue »

Nobody seemed to pointing out his many weaknesses so I thought I would. I’m able to do this and believe he should definitely be in the selection mix. Other than under the high ball I thought he had a very average game, pointing out he was beaten on a 1v1 and, from my recollection, failed to beat anyone with ball in hand. In response I’m told it was ok for him to be beaten as Veanui is really good and it’s not a worry that he didn’t beat any tacklers as he straightens the line.
I agree he’s a better long term bet than Daly but, again, it’s a low bar.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Digby »

Hard to know which if any of Malins, Steward or Freeman might push on to have good test careers. Right now they're all about as exciting as Nowell, any of them might be okay, but it's not as obvious as a young Anthony Watson

Why anyone would think Steward is solid in every aspect of defence I don't know, but that might just be Dors trolling. As Mells notes he looks good under the high ball, but there are other things to attend to
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Digby »

Mellsblue wrote:Nobody seemed to pointing out his many weaknesses so I thought I would. I’m able to do this and believe he should definitely be in the selection mix. Other than under the high ball I thought he had a very average game, pointing out he was beaten on a 1v1 and, from my recollection, failed to beat anyone with ball in hand. In response I’m told it was ok for him to be beaten as Veanui is really good and it’s not a worry that he didn’t beat any tacklers as he straightens the line.
I agree he’s a better long term bet than Daly but, again, it’s a low bar.
The bit which annoyed me from this game was his failure to look after the ball going into contact
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by twitchy »

Digby wrote:Hard to know which if any of Malins, Steward or Freeman might push on to have good test careers. Right now they're all about as exciting as Nowell, any of them might be okay, but it's not as obvious as a young Anthony Watson

Why anyone would think Steward is solid in every aspect of defence I don't know, but that might just be Dors trolling. As Mells notes he looks good under the high ball, but there are other things to attend to
Yeah I was more excited for the few minutes I thought tyrone green was a random english quins academy prospect (until I googled him) but I think steward is a solid addition.
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Mellsblue
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Mellsblue »

twitchy wrote:
Digby wrote:Hard to know which if any of Malins, Steward or Freeman might push on to have good test careers. Right now they're all about as exciting as Nowell, any of them might be okay, but it's not as obvious as a young Anthony Watson

Why anyone would think Steward is solid in every aspect of defence I don't know, but that might just be Dors trolling. As Mells notes he looks good under the high ball, but there are other things to attend to
Yeah I was more excited for the few minutes I thought tyrone green was a random english quins academy prospect (until I googled him) but I think steward is a solid addition.
Pretty much my thoughts…… in a lot less words. Solid is spot on, IMO.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Oakboy »

Digby wrote:Hard to know which if any of Malins, Steward or Freeman might push on to have good test careers. Right now they're all about as exciting as Nowell, any of them might be okay, but it's not as obvious as a young Anthony Watson

Why anyone would think Steward is solid in every aspect of defence I don't know, but that might just be Dors trolling. As Mells notes he looks good under the high ball, but there are other things to attend to
I did not say that Steward is solid in every aspect of defence although I can understand why you'd suggest that I implied it.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by Raggs »

Mellsblue wrote:Nobody seemed to pointing out his many weaknesses so I thought I would. I’m able to do this and believe he should definitely be in the selection mix. Other than under the high ball I thought he had a very average game, pointing out he was beaten on a 1v1 and, from my recollection, failed to beat anyone with ball in hand. In response I’m told it was ok for him to be beaten as Veanui is really good and it’s not a worry that he didn’t beat any tacklers as he straightens the line.
I agree he’s a better long term bet than Daly but, again, it’s a low bar.
Beats a couple of defenders 27 minutes in. Which gives the half break, which leads to quick ball getting us in position for the May try. The one on one is hardly a typical one on one fullback sitation either, he's chasing him back after an intercept, and despite a couple of steps by Veailanu (sp?) still gets enough on him to slow him down, without which Lawes wouldn't stop him.

Just noticing now that Dombrandt, in great English tradition, gives away a real clanger of a penalty. Completely abandons the scrum, to then still wait for the ball behind the back foot of the scrum. If you think the scrums over, go and get the ball, if you think it's still happening, you need to hold on...

57 minutes roughly, Steward does really well in my mind, taking the ball close to the line and giving a pass that cuts out 3 Tongan defenders to Slade, which leads to an easy 2 v 1 and a May break.

67 mins, why on earth didn't Dombrandt just back himself to score there? No one directly in front, only one defender realistically going to get him before he's at the line, 7 meters out and already going fast.

Ball just dies with Atkinson every time. At his age, if he's not international ready, I see no point in investing 10 caps in him to see if he can get upto speed, especially as he's going to be 3rd choice.

I'm excited to see Malins and Steward battling for the 15 shirt, with the possibility of Malins replacing May on a wing.
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Re: England v Australia, Sat 13 Nov KO 5.30pm

Post by 16th man »

Mellsblue wrote:. In response I’m told it was ok for him to be beaten as Veanui is really good.
I think people's point here might be more that, if you're going to set a standard for picking a full back as that they never get beaten one on one by an outside back, who has broken the line and has space to go on either side, your list of candidates is going to look pretty small.

What happens if he is in a club match against an England prospect back in a similar situation, who under a similar standard you would probably expect to be beatinng the full back every time under those circumstances? Is it whoever wins that one confrontation can be picked for England and the other one is rejected, or are we going to look at actual situational context.
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