RugbyRebels

He plays like a 13 really good carrier.

Tigersman wrote:Tigers discovering how important Kelly is to their attack.

The games Vs Quins and Leinster highlighted how important he was to our defence. He's quietly gone about making himself crucial to the side. Hopefully he can make it back for the play offs.

Just seen the Dolly injury that's a horror. I'd heard it was bad and it really is.

FKAS wrote:Just seen the Dolly injury that's a horror. I'd heard it was bad and it really is.

i gather it was another crocodkle roll a la many knee injuries. Makes me mad this sort of consequence for the injured player, and lack of for the offender.

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Just seen the Dolly injury that's a horror. I'd heard it was bad and it really is.

i gather it was another crocodkle roll a la many knee injuries. Makes me mad this sort of consequence for the injured player, and lack of for the offender.

What consequence should the offender get? It's not illegal, it's not intentional harm, it's an action that 99.99% of the time is completely harmless and this once the player had his leg trapped. It's not like he's Calum Clark.

Note - I have not specifically seen the Dolly incident as I cannot cope with seeing knee injuries, so I retract all of that if it was something other than a mundane crocodile roll.

Puja

It should be illegal. Too many of these happening. It’s the second high profile one since Willis vs Italy.

Agreed.

Jack Willis has been vocal about wanting to see crocodile rolls banned following his injury and it’s only a couple of months since Dan Leavy had to retire from something fairly similar.

I can only see positives if the crocodile roll is banned and I don’t understand the argument for keeping it legal?

It is illegal or the ref determined it to be so because he sin binned the player responsible. The issue was that the crocodile roll player didn't complete the roll and went past the player and landed onto Dolly's locked out leg, that much weight through a leg that couldn't give led to a rather nasty injury.

FKAS wrote:It is illegal or the ref determined it to be so because he sin binned the player responsible. The issue was that the crocodile roll player didn't complete the roll and went past the player and landed onto Dolly's locked out leg, that much weight through a leg that couldn't give led to a rather nasty injury.

The ref has, rightly, gone out on a limb (no pun intended) as it’s not illegal.

The ref mic wasn't working on the PRTV replay so I can only assume that Brocklebank got binned for diving off his feet as opposed to the roll as Mells said trying to roll someone off isn't illegal. Going off your feet past the ball is though Brocklebank certain does go past the ball and lands on Dolly), perhaps if that is more rigourously enforced it might change how crocodile rolls are targeted with more emphasis on the dragging them towards the attack side and away rather than the current steam in and roll with the forces then going through the jackling player.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Just seen the Dolly injury that's a horror. I'd heard it was bad and it really is.

i gather it was another crocodkle roll a la many knee injuries. Makes me mad this sort of consequence for the injured player, and lack of for the offender.

What consequence should the offender get? It's not illegal, it's not intentional harm, it's an action that 99.99% of the time is completely harmless and this once the player had his leg trapped. It's not like he's Calum Clark.

Note - I have not specifically seen the Dolly incident as I cannot cope with seeing knee injuries, so I retract all of that if it was something other than a mundane crocodile roll.

Puja

The 'offender' got a yellow, so something tells me the action was vaguely illegal. Dolly possibly gets a wrecked career. Its an action that if done recklessly has the propensity to seriously hurt, and imo is worse than the accidental head collisions that get many energised.

Nigel Owens, last year-

"The law is pretty simple. It is illegal to wilfully collapse a ruck and you must join no lower than your hip.

"You cannot target someone's knees. Teams have been using judo coaches to teach players how to roll people away from the contact area. That should not be allowed.

"It is similar to the scrum feed, they are worse than they have ever been but we let them go because that's how rugby is played and refereeing has to be consistent."

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: i gather it was another crocodkle roll a la many knee injuries. Makes me mad this sort of consequence for the injured player, and lack of for the offender.

What consequence should the offender get? It's not illegal, it's not intentional harm, it's an action that 99.99% of the time is completely harmless and this once the player had his leg trapped. It's not like he's Calum Clark.

Note - I have not specifically seen the Dolly incident as I cannot cope with seeing knee injuries, so I retract all of that if it was something other than a mundane crocodile roll.

Puja

The 'offender' got a yellow, so something tells me the action was vaguely illegal. Dolly possibly gets a wrecked career. Its an action that if done recklessly has the propensity to seriously hurt, and imo is worse than the accidental head collisions that get many energised.

Nigel Owens, last year-

"The law is pretty simple. It is illegal to wilfully collapse a ruck and you must join no lower than your hip.

"You cannot target someone's knees. Teams have been using judo coaches to teach players how to roll people away from the contact area. That should not be allowed.

"It is similar to the scrum feed, they are worse than they have ever been but we let them go because that's how rugby is played and refereeing has to be consistent."

I've not watched the Dolly incident and won't, so I think we must be talking about two separate things here. A crocodile roll to me is where someone is bent over jackalling and the defender bearhugs their upper body and rolls them sideways out of the ruck. It's not joining lower than the hip or targeting knees and I don't see how it could result in a yellow.

Has anyone actually seen the incident and can describe it to us? I suspect we're two blind men trying to describe an elephant here.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
What consequence should the offender get? It's not illegal, it's not intentional harm, it's an action that 99.99% of the time is completely harmless and this once the player had his leg trapped. It's not like he's Calum Clark.

Note - I have not specifically seen the Dolly incident as I cannot cope with seeing knee injuries, so I retract all of that if it was something other than a mundane crocodile roll.

Puja

The 'offender' got a yellow, so something tells me the action was vaguely illegal. Dolly possibly gets a wrecked career. Its an action that if done recklessly has the propensity to seriously hurt, and imo is worse than the accidental head collisions that get many energised.

Nigel Owens, last year-

"The law is pretty simple. It is illegal to wilfully collapse a ruck and you must join no lower than your hip.

"You cannot target someone's knees. Teams have been using judo coaches to teach players how to roll people away from the contact area. That should not be allowed.

"It is similar to the scrum feed, they are worse than they have ever been but we let them go because that's how rugby is played and refereeing has to be consistent."

I've not watched the Dolly incident and won't, so I think we must be talking about two separate things here. A crocodile roll to me is where someone is bent over jackalling and the defender bearhugs their upper body and rolls them sideways out of the ruck. It's not joining lower than the hip or targeting knees and I don't see how it could result in a yellow.

Has anyone actually seen the incident and can describe it to us? I suspect we're two blind men trying to describe an elephant here.

Puja

Not really, I think crocodile rolls should be illegal full stop tbh. I agree with Nigel

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
What consequence should the offender get? It's not illegal, it's not intentional harm, it's an action that 99.99% of the time is completely harmless and this once the player had his leg trapped. It's not like he's Calum Clark.

Note - I have not specifically seen the Dolly incident as I cannot cope with seeing knee injuries, so I retract all of that if it was something other than a mundane crocodile roll.

Puja

The 'offender' got a yellow, so something tells me the action was vaguely illegal. Dolly possibly gets a wrecked career. Its an action that if done recklessly has the propensity to seriously hurt, and imo is worse than the accidental head collisions that get many energised.

Nigel Owens, last year-

"The law is pretty simple. It is illegal to wilfully collapse a ruck and you must join no lower than your hip.

"You cannot target someone's knees. Teams have been using judo coaches to teach players how to roll people away from the contact area. That should not be allowed.

"It is similar to the scrum feed, they are worse than they have ever been but we let them go because that's how rugby is played and refereeing has to be consistent."

I've not watched the Dolly incident and won't, so I think we must be talking about two separate things here. A crocodile roll to me is where someone is bent over jackalling and the defender bearhugs their upper body and rolls them sideways out of the ruck. It's not joining lower than the hip or targeting knees and I don't see how it could result in a yellow.

Has anyone actually seen the incident and can describe it to us? I suspect we're two blind men trying to describe an elephant here.

Puja

Yes. Brocklebank arrives with a little momentum and goes for the crocodile roll. His position is crap, his technique poor and he's bigger than Dolly so gets no roll going and goes over Dolly and down to his right. This means he effectively goes over the ruck at an angle and lands on Dolly's left leg which is locked out and buckles under the 19 stone prop in a rather horrible way.

If he'd slowed the motion down; made contact, looped arms to gain proper purchase and then rolled Dolly back towards the Falcons try line he'd have ensured no injury and cleared him out. Crocodile rolls aren't bad on their own, the theory is sound but the execution of them is often and very much in this case reckless.

Surely, as Nigel Owens says, they are illegal as you can't deliberately collapse a ruck. Don't ask for a law reference and I know it is never enforced but I thought that was a rule.

It’s illegal to feed a scrum, it’s illegal not to bind when hitting a ruck etc, etc yet these are never/incredibly rarely enforced. Collapsing a ruck isn’t ever enforced and the crocodile roll isn’t specifically outlawed, which is what we are discussing.