Bristol vs Exter, Friday 19.45

[jimKRFC]

50 points at home is embarrassing... There seems to be a really fragile mentality in the team and has been for a while. If things don't change soon then questions need to start being asked at the top about Lam's future.

He's had the time, money and freedom to do what he wants and the side appear to not be getting better or learning from past mistakes.

[fivepointer]

That was a surprise. Didnt expect that kind of scoreline. In fairness, Exeter were very good, a bit more like they can be at their best. Plenty of good performances and much to enjoy.
Bristol looked every bit as flat as they did last week. Quite a concern. They are missing a few players but you would have expected a far better effort than that.

[Oakboy]

Genge and Sinckler at prop for a club team sounds awesome, bearing in mind that on top form they are England's best (arguably). So, what is going wrong? Yes, they won a scrum penalty or two and had a few good moments. Apart from that, both seemed petulant in attitude and unable to channel consistent commitment with much degree of intelligence.

Is it down to Bristol's coaching regime?

For an England match tomorrow, should either start? Let's face it, in terms of actual game-affecting performances overall they were outplayed by Hepburn and Williams (both significantly inferior players theoretically).

[Banquo]

When does Dayglo ever shut up? I wouldn't mind so much if he had a clue what he was gibbering about but for someone who played the game for so long he shows a surprising lack of insight. I get the impression he's one of those that's naturally good at sport and who took to rugby and has never really had to go away and analyse his own game.

Terrible pundit, but a great rugby player who was smart enough and worked hard enough to reinvent himself twice as a player, and was also a terrific skipper on the pitch. Just don't think he is super bright, but I'd think he spent a lot of time working on his own game tbh.

Yes. Big Lol is just a bit fick, innit. Despite being a great player, the subtleties of the game tend to bypass him, and quite often, so does the bleedin obvious. I've often wondered how he manages to hang on to that plum job with his rambling, meaningless comments and wooden delivery.

What's odd is that he was very adept at the subtleties of the game as a player, and at reading the game in play.

[FKAS]

Genge and Sinckler at prop for a club team sounds awesome, bearing in mind that on top form they are England's best (arguably). So, what is going wrong? Yes, they won a scrum penalty or two and had a few good moments. Apart from that, both seemed petulant in attitude and unable to channel consistent commitment with much degree of intelligence.

Is it down to Bristol's coaching regime?

I thought Sinckler and Genge were better than the Chiefs props by some distance in the first half. Chiefs won a scrum penalty but it was against the tide in that department. In the early exchanges both Sinckler and Genge looked fantastic. Sinckler tired early which is why he faded. Genge seemed to beat himself up over the yellow card and when he came back on chased the game far too hard and started making mistakes and getting on the wrong side of the ref. It looked like there was a fundamental lack of leadership, no one but their arm round Ellis and just calmed him down and got him back playing his game. At Tigers he would have had Montoya (Argentina international captain), Dan Cole, Hanro Liebenburg (Bok under 20 captain and Tigers VC), Youngs and Ford there to help him keep his head. Didn't appear to have that last night.

It seemed a problem last season that there was a lack of onfield leadership, loss of S Piatau still being felt perhaps. I presumed MacGinty would be helping with this but he's mainly watching from the sidelines and Luatua is a considerable loss in that department as well.

The tactics need some answers as well as the normal high tempo Pat Lam attack was MIA and Bristol played a lot of rugby around the halfway which piled a lot of pressure onto them if they made a mistake or got turned over.

[FKAS]

Terrible pundit, but a great rugby player who was smart enough and worked hard enough to reinvent himself twice as a player, and was also a terrific skipper on the pitch. Just don't think he is super bright, but I'd think he spent a lot of time working on his own game tbh.

Yes. Big Lol is just a bit fick, innit. Despite being a great player, the subtleties of the game tend to bypass him, and quite often, so does the bleedin obvious. I've often wondered how he manages to hang on to that plum job with his rambling, meaningless comments and wooden delivery.

What's odd is that he was very adept at the subtleties of the game as a player, and at reading the game in play.

Wasn't his nickname "70 minute Lol" due to his tendency to get binned? He was obviously a fantastic player but his attempts at commentary remind me of a story I was told about Julian White trying to scrum coach. Technically excellent and strong as a bull but when put in front of a struggling academy tighthead couldn't explain what he was doing wrong and just that he needed to sort it out and push harder. Sometimes sports people have natural instincts that you can't coach and that they can't explain.

[Banquo]

Yes. Big Lol is just a bit fick, innit. Despite being a great player, the subtleties of the game tend to bypass him, and quite often, so does the bleedin obvious. I've often wondered how he manages to hang on to that plum job with his rambling, meaningless comments and wooden delivery.

What's odd is that he was very adept at the subtleties of the game as a player, and at reading the game in play.

Wasn't his nickname "70 minute Lol" due to his tendency to get binned? He was obviously a fantastic player but his attempts at commentary remind me of a story I was told about Julian White trying to scrum coach. Technically excellent and strong as a bull but when put in front of a struggling academy tighthead couldn't explain what he was doing wrong and just that he needed to sort it out and push harder. Sometimes sports people have natural instincts that you can't coach and that they can't explain.

Never heard that one, and I don't think he got binned much- when he did, it was usually taking one for the team lying over the ball and getting a shoeing. Lol was also an excellent skipper, so I don't think he had any problem communicating with players. The absence of content in his commentary is odd, save perhaps the game has changed a lot since he stopped playing. Plus, not super bright.
I do agree that sometimes the very best sportspeople struggle to coach, partly because they can't work out why someone can't do something that is obvious to them.

[fivepointer]

Lawrence "look at that" Dallaglio is bloody awful Never says anything insightful or interesting. He's been trading on his name for years.

[Banquo]

Lawrence "look at that" Dallaglio is bloody awful Never says anything insightful or interesting. He's been trading on his name for years.

...see ....well nearly all rugby pundits tbh.

Flatman is good. Healey tho very irritating, can come up with some insight. There may be some other good ones, but most meh at best.

[Scrumhead]

Genge and Sinckler at prop for a club team sounds awesome, bearing in mind that on top form they are England's best (arguably). So, what is going wrong? Yes, they won a scrum penalty or two and had a few good moments. Apart from that, both seemed petulant in attitude and unable to channel consistent commitment with much degree of intelligence.

Is it down to Bristol's coaching regime?

I thought Sinckler and Genge were better than the Chiefs props by some distance in the first half. Chiefs won a scrum penalty but it was against the tide in that department. In the early exchanges both Sinckler and Genge looked fantastic. Sinckler tired early which is why he faded. Genge seemed to beat himself up over the yellow card and when he came back on chased the game far too hard and started making mistakes and getting on the wrong side of the ref. It looked like there was a fundamental lack of leadership, no one but their arm round Ellis and just calmed him down and got him back playing his game. At Tigers he would have had Montoya (Argentina international captain), Dan Cole, Hanro Liebenburg (Bok under 20 captain and Tigers VC), Youngs and Ford there to help him keep his head. Didn't appear to have that last night.

It seemed a problem last season that there was a lack of onfield leadership, loss of S Piatau still being felt perhaps. I presumed MacGinty would be helping with this but he's mainly watching from the sidelines and Luatua is a considerable loss in that department as well.

The tactics need some answers as well as the normal high tempo Pat Lam attack was MIA and Bristol played a lot of rugby around the halfway which piled a lot of pressure onto them if they made a mistake or got turned over.

Agreed. Genge is comfortably England’s best loosehead now and has had a very good start to his Bristol career … but, there is definitely a bit of an ego thing where he wants to be ‘the man’. On a good day when he’s at the top of his game (like in Round 1), that’s fine. On a not so good day, it manifests itself in him trying to do everything himself.

Sinckler’s form has been in a hole for a while now, but he did look a better in the first half yesterday.

On recent overall form, I’d start Genge and Stuart for England.

[Banquo]

Genge and Sinckler at prop for a club team sounds awesome, bearing in mind that on top form they are England's best (arguably). So, what is going wrong? Yes, they won a scrum penalty or two and had a few good moments. Apart from that, both seemed petulant in attitude and unable to channel consistent commitment with much degree of intelligence.

Is it down to Bristol's coaching regime?

I thought Sinckler and Genge were better than the Chiefs props by some distance in the first half. Chiefs won a scrum penalty but it was against the tide in that department. In the early exchanges both Sinckler and Genge looked fantastic. Sinckler tired early which is why he faded. Genge seemed to beat himself up over the yellow card and when he came back on chased the game far too hard and started making mistakes and getting on the wrong side of the ref. It looked like there was a fundamental lack of leadership, no one but their arm round Ellis and just calmed him down and got him back playing his game. At Tigers he would have had Montoya (Argentina international captain), Dan Cole, Hanro Liebenburg (Bok under 20 captain and Tigers VC), Youngs and Ford there to help him keep his head. Didn't appear to have that last night.

It seemed a problem last season that there was a lack of onfield leadership, loss of S Piatau still being felt perhaps. I presumed MacGinty would be helping with this but he's mainly watching from the sidelines and Luatua is a considerable loss in that department as well.

The tactics need some answers as well as the normal high tempo Pat Lam attack was MIA and Bristol played a lot of rugby around the halfway which piled a lot of pressure onto them if they made a mistake or got turned over.

Agreed. Genge is comfortably England’s best loosehead now and has had a very good start to his Bristol career … but, there is definitely a bit of an ego thing where he wants to be ‘the man’. On a good day when he’s at the top of his game (like in Round 1), that’s fine. On a not so good day, it manifests itself in him trying to do everything himself.

Sinckler’s form has been in a hole for a while now, but he did look a better in the first half yesterday.

On recent overall form, I’d start Genge and Stuart for England.

Genge's discipline was poor last night- like you say he tries to do too much and without much thought. Like you, I thought Sinckler was mostly ok.

[Mellsblue]

I think Genge was responsible for two different of being marched back 10 yards for arguing with the ref. Iirc, they were both in the 10 mins after halftime which, imo, was the period Bristol lost any chance of winning.

[Banquo]

I think Genge was responsible for two different of being marched back 10 yards for arguing with the ref. Iirc, they were both in the 10 mins after halftime which, imo, was the period Bristol lost any chance of winning.

....not to mention when he was binned for a dodgy clearout, and Chiefs scored two converted tries whilst he was off, the first of which iirc was from the lineout and phases after said penalty. 7-3 to 7-17 in the blink of a shoulder.

[Oakboy]

I think Genge was responsible for two different of being marched back 10 yards for arguing with the ref. Iirc, they were both in the 10 mins after halftime which, imo, was the period Bristol lost any chance of winning.

It's the 'no I in team' bit. I did not expect that degree of stupidity from Genge. Both instances did no good for the team. Once was daft. A second was just personal niggle which might be acceptable on a tennis court but has no place in a team game. Had he immediately apologised to the ref there would be some degree of mitigation but he just looked like a naughty child caught out. Strange. A foreign ref in an international match might well have waved red.

[Puja]

I think Genge was responsible for two different of being marched back 10 yards for arguing with the ref. Iirc, they were both in the 10 mins after halftime which, imo, was the period Bristol lost any chance of winning.

....not to mention when he was binned for a dodgy clearout, and Chiefs scored two converted tries whilst he was off, the first of which iirc was from the lineout and phases after said penalty. 7-3 to 7-17 in the blink of a shoulder.

I reiterate my point that he was hard done by and, because he was bent at the waist, his action was legal and thus it's not relevant whether there was head contact.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision, it changed the game - Genge was dominating before that and, as someone said, looked like he was frustrated and trying too hard when he came back on. Disappointing, cause I spent the first chunk of the match before the yellow thinking he should be England captain - changed my mind a bit over the rest of the game!

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Disappointing, cause I spent the first chunk of the match before the yellow thinking he should be England captain - changed my mind a bit over the rest of the game!

Puja

#justiceforcourtney

[Banquo]

I think Genge was responsible for two different of being marched back 10 yards for arguing with the ref. Iirc, they were both in the 10 mins after halftime which, imo, was the period Bristol lost any chance of winning.

....not to mention when he was binned for a dodgy clearout, and Chiefs scored two converted tries whilst he was off, the first of which iirc was from the lineout and phases after said penalty. 7-3 to 7-17 in the blink of a shoulder.

I reiterate my point that he was hard done by and, because he was bent at the waist, his action was legal and thus it's not relevant whether there was head contact.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision, it changed the game - Genge was dominating before that and, as someone said, looked like he was frustrated and trying too hard when he came back on. Disappointing, cause I spent the first chunk of the match before the yellow thinking he should be England captain - changed my mind a bit over the rest of the game!

Puja

It was just poor judgement from him, which was the fulcral point of the discussion. And I don't agree with your 'hard done by point either'- unless I'm mistaken the guidelines talk about dangerous play in a ruck in terms of both charging in and/or not making any contact above the line of the shoulders.

[twitchy]

I don't think that yellow changed the game when bris shipped that many points did it? Exe were very strong from the bench in the latter stages.

[Puja]

I don't think that yellow changed the game when bris shipped that many points did it? Exe were very strong from the bench in the latter stages.

Not in terms of "Bristol would've won otherwise", but it was a huge momentum swing and took the wind right out of Bristol's sails.

Puja

[Banquo]

I don't think that yellow changed the game when bris shipped that many points did it? Exe were very strong from the bench in the latter stages.

well it was 14 unanswred points that took chiefs from 4 downto 10 up, took some energy away and fored brizzle to chase a game they had control over, so....

[twitchy]

That is fair enough.

[Spiffy]

Terrible pundit, but a great rugby player who was smart enough and worked hard enough to reinvent himself twice as a player, and was also a terrific skipper on the pitch. Just don't think he is super bright, but I'd think he spent a lot of time working on his own game tbh.

Yes. Big Lol is just a bit fick, innit. Despite being a great player, the subtleties of the game tend to bypass him, and quite often, so does the bleedin obvious. I've often wondered how he manages to hang on to that plum job with his rambling, meaningless comments and wooden delivery.

What's odd is that he was very adept at the subtleties of the game as a player, and at reading the game in play.

This in not unusual in sport. Look at the number of soccer players who were ( and are) geniuses on the pitch and able to read the game instinctively with an intrinsic football intelligence, but were total dimwits off the field of play.

[Banquo]

Yes. Big Lol is just a bit fick, innit. Despite being a great player, the subtleties of the game tend to bypass him, and quite often, so does the bleedin obvious. I've often wondered how he manages to hang on to that plum job with his rambling, meaningless comments and wooden delivery.

What's odd is that he was very adept at the subtleties of the game as a player, and at reading the game in play.

This in not unusual in sport. Look at the number of soccer players who were ( and are) geniuses on the pitch and able to read the game instinctively with an intrinsic football intelligence, but were total dimwits off the field of play.

Yeah, said as much in a later post.

[Timbo]

Genge had Williams on toast at the scrum. Bizarre that Ridley fabricated a couple of scrum pens in Chiefs favour. The first Exe scrum pen was a ludicrous decision.

[Mr Mwenda]

Lawrence "look at that" Dallaglio is bloody awful Never says anything insightful or interesting. He's been trading on his name for years.

...see ....well nearly all rugby pundits tbh.

Flatman is good. Healey tho very irritating, can come up with some insight. There may be some other good ones, but most meh at best.

It's been 25 years since tv companies really started bidding for the rugby. To my memory, quality of commentary has nearly always been low. For whatever reason, TV directors don't prioritise insight. I suspect they concluded that what commentators do or say doesn't matter to most viewers. More important perhaps is having a familiar name, voice and style. Dalaglio ticks two of those boxes and can coast.