RugbyRebels

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:53 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:22 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:44 am

I mean, we do do this every time, but I'll go back to my standard response - I'm not talking fully professional as in "spend up to the Prem salary cap immediately" level, I'm talking about an evolution of teams who have ambitions to get there, complete with increased central funding. If you ringfence below, then there's no worry about relegation and failure. You'd've thought Doncaster, Jersey, Ealing, and Pirates would all be up for that kind of arrangement.

Puja

They might be but none of them look set up for 20k crowds, in a good quality stadium with the income from ancillary facilities that allow the likes of Exe to not lose money hand over fist.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here - I'm not talking about a revolution where these 5-7 clubs are supposed to be competing with Exeter's spending. I'm effectively talking about nothing much changing immediately, except they're in a smaller league, with better central funding, three bigger name opponents to drive crowds, and some form of intra-league cup competition to raise money, with the ambition for growth and development in the future.

Puja

Shrink both leagues and cut the dead wood at the bottom of the Champ? I’d agree but only to get the Prem down to a sensible size.
Those three clubs and whichever fourth yo-yos with them will be dead as pro entities within a few years, imo. We can’t even get half of the Prem clubs to break even when they play in the Champions Cup and have 11/12 other big name opponents.
To get 5-7 clubs up to pro standard with facilities on and off the field to man them a going concern is £100s million over decades. I’ve posted this before but:
Ealing: ok ground but attendances in three figures and bigger rival on their door step.
Jersey: small ground, finite population and already gone bust twice.
Nottingham: ground is two temp stands on a flood plain. Spent years in a football ground and didn’t attract enough fans. Gone bust once.
Doncaster: it’s a possibility but they don’t get anywhere near filling their already too small ground as it is.
Bedford: if their plans for a new stadium get the go ahead then it’s a possibility but with Sarries to the south and Northampton to the, erm, north could they grow their attendances on to five figs.
Cov: possibility if Wasps go back to where the belong.
Pirates: current ground is no better than my local club and new stad doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. Truro pop = 20,000.
Hartpury: it’s a university/college
Ampthill: tiny market town wedged between Bedford and Sarries. Currently play in a field.
Richmond: amateur and dont own their ground, afaik
Caldy: no idea. Only just come up. Amateur as far as I know with no idea on playing facilities.
London Scottish: borrow Richmonds ground and constantly flirting with going bust.

Peej wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:29 pm Wasps need to go into administration to be bought and saved.

Can anyone explain to me why that's the case? I don't understand why they can't just be bought?

Puja

My understanding is that by going into administration, any new buyer doesn't have to take on the debt of the previous owners

I think that English club rugby needs its traditions - including geographical locations and fan bases - to survive. Any alternative involving franchise compromises and artificial locations is probably doomed to fail. Welsh rugby has struggled with their version of the concept. I doubt many unconnected with Wasps will be shedding tears if the move to Coventry fails.

At this point, what damage will the demise of Wasps and Worcester do to the future of the game? Will concentrating players into fewer clubs improve the national team? The RFU need to do some deep-rooted research, I suspect. Filling Twickenham is insufficient on its own.

One aside: does a reduced number of fixtures break the contract with BT sport?

Full statement here: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport ... s-25243761

They're talking a good game about still expecting to find buyers, but not having the facility to fulfil a fixture (I'm assuming insurance would be the issue here?) is surely a very bad sign indeed.

Puja

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:26 pm I think that English club rugby needs its traditions - including geographical locations and fan bases - to survive. Any alternative involving franchise compromises and artificial locations is probably doomed to fail. Welsh rugby has struggled with their version of the concept. I doubt many unconnected with Wasps will be shedding tears if the move to Coventry fails.

At this point, what damage will the demise of Wasps and Worcester do to the future of the game? Will concentrating players into fewer clubs improve the national team? The RFU need to do some deep-rooted research, I suspect. Filling Twickenham is insufficient on its own.

One aside: does a reduced number of fixtures break the contract with BT sport?

I wouldn't've thought so this season, as there's the same number of game weekends and BT can still pick 3 fixtures each week, albeit with reduced options (they might have to put LIrish on television at this rate ). Next season and going forwards will be up for debate though.

Puja

Wasps now in administration & Exeter game off:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/players- ... istration/

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... looming%2F

Rumours also going round about Irish also being close to going under.

Peej wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:18 pm My understanding is that by going into administration, any new buyer doesn't have to take on the debt of the previous owners

This. You buy the assets from the administrators using a new co, who then distribute the sale proceeds to creditors in the statutory order: secured-preferential-prescribed part-unsecured. The asset sale proceeds won't cover everything so one or more class of creditor loses out.

Well, shit

Grim but not unexpected news.
The pro game is in disarray and there cannot be any excuse for those charged with running it to get together and work out where it goes from here.
Sitting on hands isnt an option. If ever there was a time for bold action, it is now.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:16 pm Grim but not unexpected news.
The pro game is in disarray and there cannot be any excuse for those charged with running it to get together and work out where it goes from here.
Sitting on hands isnt an option. If ever there was a time for bold action, it is now.

Genuine q- who? PRL plus RFU? What bold action though? This is cash short, medium and long term.

Alastair Eykyn - Miserable & desperate as it is for all concerned at Wasps & Worcester, this has to be a watershed moment for Premiership Rugby. Re-set the dial. Change the structure of governance. Transparency over club finances. Spend what you can afford. Collaborate.

Something has to change, surely?

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:24 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:16 pm Grim but not unexpected news.
The pro game is in disarray and there cannot be any excuse for those charged with running it to get together and work out where it goes from here.
Sitting on hands isnt an option. If ever there was a time for bold action, it is now.

Genuine q- who? PRL plus RFU? What bold action though? This is cash short, medium and long term.

Good question. Crises as extreme as this one are best dealt with by individuals, IMO. Committees talking are just circulated hot air. Maybe, the PRL and RFU chief execs should meet and agree to appoint one person to do a review and set out a route forward. Obviously, there needs to be a pooling of information from rugby, finance and PR backgrounds but there needs to be a dynamic thinker who assesses and then guides. Whether there is anybody that good within rugby boundaries I haven't a clue.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:04 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:24 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:16 pm Grim but not unexpected news.
The pro game is in disarray and there cannot be any excuse for those charged with running it to get together and work out where it goes from here.
Sitting on hands isnt an option. If ever there was a time for bold action, it is now.

Genuine q- who? PRL plus RFU? What bold action though? This is cash short, medium and long term.

Good question. Crises as extreme as this one are best dealt with by individuals, IMO. Committees talking are just circulated hot air. Maybe, the PRL and RFU chief execs should meet and agree to appoint one person to do a review and set out a route forward. Obviously, there needs to be a pooling of information from rugby, finance and PR backgrounds but there needs to be a dynamic thinker who assesses and then guides. Whether there is anybody that good within rugby boundaries I haven't a clue.

Isn't this kind of "Grand planning to increase revenue" the kind of thing that CVC were supposed to bring? We were all worried they'd screw things up by changing too much; I don't think anyone predicted they'd not do anything at all.

Puja

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:03 pm Alastair Eykyn - Miserable & desperate as it is for all concerned at Wasps & Worcester, this has to be a watershed moment for Premiership Rugby. Re-set the dial. Change the structure of governance. Transparency over club finances. Spend what you can afford. Collaborate.

Something has to change, surely?

Cliches tbh.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:06 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:04 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:24 pm

Genuine q- who? PRL plus RFU? What bold action though? This is cash short, medium and long term.

Good question. Crises as extreme as this one are best dealt with by individuals, IMO. Committees talking are just circulated hot air. Maybe, the PRL and RFU chief execs should meet and agree to appoint one person to do a review and set out a route forward. Obviously, there needs to be a pooling of information from rugby, finance and PR backgrounds but there needs to be a dynamic thinker who assesses and then guides. Whether there is anybody that good within rugby boundaries I haven't a clue.

Isn't this kind of "Grand planning to increase revenue" the kind of thing that CVC were supposed to bring? We were all worried they'd screw things up by changing too much; I don't think anyone predicted they'd not do anything at all.

Puja

….the clue is in VC ….

If Wasps aren't rescued quickly then Tigers only home game before the 27th November is a Wednesday night PRC game against Falcons. These cancelled games are going to be body blows for other teams in the league. Continuing the Tigers example it's a cost of around £400k cost to the club when a home game is cancelled. Like all other Prem Clubs they have either been or still are paying back deferred PAYE and VAT and have a DCMS loan (again like most other clubs).

Each club that cancels games makes it more likely others will. Dark days for rugby union in England.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:31 pm If Wasps aren't rescued quickly then Tigers only home game before the 27th November is a Wednesday night PRC game against Falcons. These cancelled games are going to be body blows for other teams in the league. Continuing the Tigers example it's a cost of around £400k cost to the club when a home game is cancelled. Like all other Prem Clubs they have either been or still are paying back deferred PAYE and VAT and have a DCMS loan (again like most other clubs).

Each club that cancels games makes it more likely others will. Dark days for rugby union in England.

Well that's just depressing.

Although, from a Leicester perspective, those two games against Worcester and Wasps are going to be when our players are away for the Autumn Internationals, so it's an ill-wind that blows no good. If Wasps are ruled out for the rest of the season, then there's got to be rearrangement of the back end of the fixture list to remove the international clashes, if for no other reason than because crowds tend to be depressed during the internationals and that'd be the cheapest place to take the pain of losing the home match.

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:31 pm If Wasps aren't rescued quickly then Tigers only home game before the 27th November is a Wednesday night PRC game against Falcons. These cancelled games are going to be body blows for other teams in the league. Continuing the Tigers example it's a cost of around £400k cost to the club when a home game is cancelled. Like all other Prem Clubs they have either been or still are paying back deferred PAYE and VAT and have a DCMS loan (again like most other clubs).

Each club that cancels games makes it more likely others will. Dark days for rugby union in England.

Falcons would be in the situation of their last home game of the season being in the middle of March (as their last two are Wuss and Wasps). Surely at the bare minimum a reshuffle of the calendar from when the fixtures aren’t fully confirmed onwards is needed? Create a bit of breathing room round the 6N, make sure all clubs have similar rest etc.

Oh wait this is Prem Rugby and that would be sensible…

I suppose we can only hope that Leicester use the fallow weeks to work on their attack and, given there’s no relegation, Newcastle’s season will be over by the end of Feb anyway…

Who cares about who plays whom when. The whole future of English club rugby is at stake here. If the RFU is genuinely interested in preserving the professional game in this country, it needs to act fast in constructing a financial solution (together with PRL +CVC). Gawd knows we're having enough problems on the international stage. The Prem problems could soon make these much worse...

Not sure the RFU will be that bothered. You could carve up Worcester’s and Wasps’ academy territory between Glos and Northampton (the latter are particularly hard done by due geography and the quantity, but not quality, of private schools in their patch), there would be less clubs to pay/bribe for player release and the EPS would probably play less games and be less likely to be injured for Eng training camps and matches. If LI go under then Quins will take their academy patch and Bath will have to produce their own.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:47 pm Not sure the RFU will be that bothered. You could carve up Worcester’s and Wasps’ academy territory between Glos and Northampton (the latter are particularly hard done by due geography and the quantity, but not quality, of private schools in their patch), there would be less clubs to pay/bribe for player release and the EPS would probably play less games and be less likely to be injured for Eng training camps and matches. If LI go under then Quins will take their academy patch and Bath will have to produce their own.

Financially and reputationally they absolutely NEED to be bothered. Not acting looks pathetic to every other league on the planet and there are another 10 clubs worrying about both TV and gate revenue via match cancellations. If the RFU do nothing then what is the point of them.

Shrinking the league: probably good. Failing to mitigate the fallout from this shitshow: not good.

This is a chance to get serious and start asking about central contracts, funding, other stuff I know nothing about.

Professionalism and corporatisation. It's an eventuality.
I warned you about this many years ago.

Harrow school could bail them out, if they gave a toss or wanted to be associated with the Wasps name. Seems unlikely.
Form a queue to transfer Launch' in his final few years.