RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:36 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:29 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:44 am As I’m in a cynical mood, all the quotes I’ve seen so far about a stronger second tier are based on having a decent playground for the 1/2/3 PRL clubs who have the misfortune to be there. I’m aware that improving the Champ whatever the motivation will help the league but surely an approach that involves a realisation that strong clubs, as well as a strong league, are needed, and that those clubs need £££ to help with wages in the short term and stadia etc in the long term. I dare not hope for any words on some equality of, let alone any, equity in this project/business.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong on PRL’s motivation.

How does the ££££ get generated without an influx of sugar daddies in it for at least 10 years.

No idea. Which is what I’ve argued for years!

I think that's what Massey-Taylor's arguing - if he can offer a product that has better regulation and a more stable structure and governance, then he reckons the appetite is there for investors. Which does make some sense - even with things in the absolute basket case that it is at the moment, there are people interested in buying Worcester and Wasps.

There may not currently be a sugar daddy willing to invest in Doncaster as things stand at the moment, with PRL as a mostly closed shop of P-shares and academy boundaries, the RFU ambivalent on promotion and MSC on wheels, and the season structure a mess with no intra-league cup and games clashing with internationals. However, if they can present it as an opportunity to own a franchise in the new Super 20 competition, with guaranteed promotion chances, no relegation trap door for X years, and investment/attention/marketing for their new acquisition, it's entirely possible there's going to be people wanting to put their pounds in.

Puja

I appreciate that thought process, I just don’t think it’ll happen for the reasons discussed previously a number of times.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:53 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:36 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:29 pm

How does the ££££ get generated without an influx of sugar daddies in it for at least 10 years.

No idea. Which is what I’ve argued for years!

I think that's what Massey-Taylor's arguing - if he can offer a product that has better regulation and a more stable structure and governance, then he reckons the appetite is there for investors. Which does make some sense - even with things in the absolute basket case that it is at the moment, there are people interested in buying Worcester and Wasps.

There may not currently be a sugar daddy willing to invest in Doncaster as things stand at the moment, with PRL as a mostly closed shop of P-shares and academy boundaries, the RFU ambivalent on promotion and MSC on wheels, and the season structure a mess with no intra-league cup and games clashing with internationals. However, if they can present it as an opportunity to own a franchise in the new Super 20 competition, with guaranteed promotion chances, no relegation trap door for X years, and investment/attention/marketing for their new acquisition, it's entirely possible there's going to be people wanting to put their pounds in.

Puja

Well all things are possible, but it'd be a triumph of hope over experience. I don't think governance is the key issue in generating revenues.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:42 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:53 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:36 pm
No idea. Which is what I’ve argued for years!

I think that's what Massey-Taylor's arguing - if he can offer a product that has better regulation and a more stable structure and governance, then he reckons the appetite is there for investors. Which does make some sense - even with things in the absolute basket case that it is at the moment, there are people interested in buying Worcester and Wasps.

There may not currently be a sugar daddy willing to invest in Doncaster as things stand at the moment, with PRL as a mostly closed shop of P-shares and academy boundaries, the RFU ambivalent on promotion and MSC on wheels, and the season structure a mess with no intra-league cup and games clashing with internationals. However, if they can present it as an opportunity to own a franchise in the new Super 20 competition, with guaranteed promotion chances, no relegation trap door for X years, and investment/attention/marketing for their new acquisition, it's entirely possible there's going to be people wanting to put their pounds in.

Puja

Well all things are possible, but it'd be a triumph of hope over experience. I don't think governance is the key issue in generating revenues.

It's definitely an issue in discouraging investors. Would you put your hard earneds into that sack of wet cats?

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:10 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:42 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:53 pm

I think that's what Massey-Taylor's arguing - if he can offer a product that has better regulation and a more stable structure and governance, then he reckons the appetite is there for investors. Which does make some sense - even with things in the absolute basket case that it is at the moment, there are people interested in buying Worcester and Wasps.

There may not currently be a sugar daddy willing to invest in Doncaster as things stand at the moment, with PRL as a mostly closed shop of P-shares and academy boundaries, the RFU ambivalent on promotion and MSC on wheels, and the season structure a mess with no intra-league cup and games clashing with internationals. However, if they can present it as an opportunity to own a franchise in the new Super 20 competition, with guaranteed promotion chances, no relegation trap door for X years, and investment/attention/marketing for their new acquisition, it's entirely possible there's going to be people wanting to put their pounds in.

Puja

Well all things are possible, but it'd be a triumph of hope over experience. I don't think governance is the key issue in generating revenues.

It's definitely an issue in discouraging investors. Would you put your hard earneds into that sack of wet cats?

Puja

Its not as much of, or any near as much of, the issue of seeing millions and millions per annum disappearing down a drain with zero prospect of any return, ad infinitum (good governance should be a given, natch ). 'investor' is a huge misnomer. The key issue is that not enough people will pay to watch rugby matches here . I'm afraid all the rest is lipstick on a pig.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:35 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:10 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:42 pm

Well all things are possible, but it'd be a triumph of hope over experience. I don't think governance is the key issue in generating revenues.

It's definitely an issue in discouraging investors. Would you put your hard earneds into that sack of wet cats?

Puja

Its not as much of, or any near as much of, the issue of seeing millions and millions per annum disappearing down a drain with zero prospect of any return, ad infinitum (good governance should be a given, natch ). 'investor' is a huge misnomer. The key issue is that not enough people will pay to watch rugby matches here . I'm afraid all the rest is lipstick on a pig.

And so, what, we give up and go home? This is not an immutable fact that we just have to learn to live with. Rugby has previously been more popular than it is now and it is perfectly possible to turn the slide around.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:05 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:35 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:10 pm

It's definitely an issue in discouraging investors. Would you put your hard earneds into that sack of wet cats?

Puja

Its not as much of, or any near as much of, the issue of seeing millions and millions per annum disappearing down a drain with zero prospect of any return, ad infinitum (good governance should be a given, natch ). 'investor' is a huge misnomer. The key issue is that not enough people will pay to watch rugby matches here . I'm afraid all the rest is lipstick on a pig.

And so, what, we give up and go home? This is not an immutable fact that we just have to learn to live with. Rugby has previously been more popular than it is now and it is perfectly possible to turn the slide around.

Puja

It's entirely possible to turn it around. Before the Brownlee Brothers started turning up and started winning Olympic medals who watched Triathlon? Huge growth in that sport over the last decade. Got a shot when it was made a Olympic sport and they capitalised on it. Always going to be a niche sport but the BBC has red button coverage and the number of events and clubs has multiplied because of how they approached it.

All about having a marketable product. England had a massive opportunity and blew it with Lancaster at the home world cup. The RFU were gearing up for a glut of new players joining amateur clubs on the back of it, never happened because England failed so spectacularly. Success and likeable role models followed by an obtainable regular product thereafter is the key.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:05 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:35 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:10 pm

It's definitely an issue in discouraging investors. Would you put your hard earneds into that sack of wet cats?

Puja

Its not as much of, or any near as much of, the issue of seeing millions and millions per annum disappearing down a drain with zero prospect of any return, ad infinitum (good governance should be a given, natch ). 'investor' is a huge misnomer. The key issue is that not enough people will pay to watch rugby matches here . I'm afraid all the rest is lipstick on a pig.

And so, what, we give up and go home? This is not an immutable fact that we just have to learn to live with. Rugby has previously been more popular than it is now and it is perfectly possible to turn the slide around.

Puja

No, just slim it (pro) down- and maybe then evolve. There are two distinct problems- lack of revenue to support a large pro club game that attracts top athletes; and a sharp decline in (male) adult participation, which is making really difficult for even sub champ clubs to keep going (which in turn will bleed into potl lack of numbers upwards, tho the two are drifting apart). Then you have the concussion issues alarming schools and clubs.

So its a thorny set of issues- and if anything, the attention needs to be on the participation end, and re growing the amateur end. For now prune the top end, rather than trying create new vehicles.....esp in the current economic picture.And tbh, in that context- taking time to sort it out, which started our chat, makes sense. But needs grounding in realism imo.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:52 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:05 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:35 pm
Its not as much of, or any near as much of, the issue of seeing millions and millions per annum disappearing down a drain with zero prospect of any return, ad infinitum (good governance should be a given, natch ). 'investor' is a huge misnomer. The key issue is that not enough people will pay to watch rugby matches here . I'm afraid all the rest is lipstick on a pig.

And so, what, we give up and go home? This is not an immutable fact that we just have to learn to live with. Rugby has previously been more popular than it is now and it is perfectly possible to turn the slide around.

Puja

It's entirely possible to turn it around. Before the Brownlee Brothers started turning up and started winning Olympic medals who watched Triathlon? Huge growth in that sport over the last decade. Got a shot when it was made a Olympic sport and they capitalised on it. Always going to be a niche sport but the BBC has red button coverage and the number of events and clubs has multiplied because of how they approached it.

All about having a marketable product. England had a massive opportunity and blew it with Lancaster at the home world cup. The RFU were gearing up for a glut of new players joining amateur clubs on the back of it, never happened because England failed so spectacularly. Success and likeable role models followed by an obtainable regular product thereafter is the key.

At its peak in 15/16, triathlon had 25000 participants in the UK- its now at c 15k. Its still a very small sport at the elite level, with limited spectator revenues and most triathletes needing personal sponsors- and there's hardly a massive spectator presence at most events. But I'm definitely no expert- background reading...

https://www.witsup.com/the-economics-of ... triathlon/

https://populous.com/is-this-what-the-f ... 20amateurs.

I get what you are saying (with a multiplier effect as rugby is more mainstream), but its a very different problem with hundreds of pro players to pay. The TV revenues are already there tbh (maybe securing cheaper access somehow would be helpful), and most clubs (my own relatively small one included) do a fantastic job with (local and national) sponsorships- its through the gate that is really needed. It maybe that winning a world cup (again) starts to elicit mass interest, but I think the focus (as above) is to get mass participation going again and retain the kids and their parents into adulthood. I think Mini and Youth and the women's game are still healthy/growing, so that's where the efforts needs to go imo, and its a long term strategy needed. Retaining players after m and y and colts has always been a chunky issue tbh.

I very much agree with grassroots and the drop over after colts.

Success and a good story around the players involved would generate more interest and a short term boost in through the gate numbers. It would then be up to the RFU to drive it on. It might be helpful with the tournament being in France as the times of the games will be more prime time as opposed to in the morning. The casual sports viewer is more likely to tune in and the neutral pub crowds etc.

There was a surge in numbers post 2003 but rugby is a niche sport so as with the triathlon example it will dip if you don't keep feeding it success.

One of the big issues is that most state schools just don't play rugby.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:06 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:05 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:35 pm
Its not as much of, or any near as much of, the issue of seeing millions and millions per annum disappearing down a drain with zero prospect of any return, ad infinitum (good governance should be a given, natch ). 'investor' is a huge misnomer. The key issue is that not enough people will pay to watch rugby matches here . I'm afraid all the rest is lipstick on a pig.

And so, what, we give up and go home? This is not an immutable fact that we just have to learn to live with. Rugby has previously been more popular than it is now and it is perfectly possible to turn the slide around.

Puja

No, just slim it (pro) down- and maybe then evolve. There are two distinct problems- lack of revenue to support a large pro club game that attracts top athletes; and a sharp decline in (male) adult participation, which is making really difficult for even sub champ clubs to keep going (which in turn will bleed into potl lack of numbers upwards, tho the two are drifting apart). Then you have the concussion issues alarming schools and clubs.

So its a thorny set of issues- and if anything, the attention needs to be on the participation end, and re growing the amateur end. For now prune the top end, rather than trying create new vehicles.....esp in the current economic picture.And tbh, in that context- taking time to sort it out, which started our chat, makes sense. But needs grounding in realism imo.

Slimming it down and concentrating the pro game hasn't been a huge success for Wales though.

I would disagree with your thesis that attention needs to be on the participation end. In schools, absolutely the fuck yes, but at adult level, participation is dropping in every sport and, while we do want to reverse that, it's not players that bring in the income.

What we need is more people like Bristol - we mocked when they brought out the branding and we mocked when they were going to be rattling around in a 27k stadium and we mocked them bringing in a few big ticket players like that would fix their team, but they're currently averaging 18k attendances (third highest in the league) and they're families and young children rather than rugby players and grizzled old ex-rugby players. And that's with them languishing in the wrong half of the table for a season and a half!

We need a bit of ambition and confidence. Act small time and we'll be small time. If rugby doesn't believe in itself as a product, why the hell should anyone else?

Puja

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:51 am I very much agree with grassroots and the drop over after colts.

Success and a good story around the players involved would generate more interest and a short term boost in through the gate numbers. It would then be up to the RFU to drive it on. It might be helpful with the tournament being in France as the times of the games will be more prime time as opposed to in the morning. The casual sports viewer is more likely to tune in and the neutral pub crowds etc.

There was a surge in numbers post 2003 but rugby is a niche sport so as with the triathlon example it will dip if you don't keep feeding it success.

One of the big issues is that most state schools just don't play rugby.

On the last point, there's a lot of clues about the issues the game faces. My club is doing a load of outreach type work in state schools- but Rugby Union requires a lot of effort to lay on,nquite chunky 'safeguarding' in its broadest sense, and there's increasing parental concern etc, such that even in rugby playing schools, heads are getting nervous. I'm genuinely concerned as you can tell- at my own club there's huge effort going in (as above) but its looking very challenging. There's a side issue in that amateur clubs were essentially run with goodwill and pretty much the same core people doing everything- when you then start to professionalise clubs, that goodwill evaporates quickly.

Maybe if we can get a strategic accord going between pro clubs, amateur clubs and RFU which focuses on the game end to end and has a ten year cycle with community at the heart and growth outwards from that ......it would be a good start at least . At the moment the game just feels very divided, which is understandable with most clubs in survival mode.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:00 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:06 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:05 pm

And so, what, we give up and go home? This is not an immutable fact that we just have to learn to live with. Rugby has previously been more popular than it is now and it is perfectly possible to turn the slide around.

Puja

No, just slim it (pro) down- and maybe then evolve. There are two distinct problems- lack of revenue to support a large pro club game that attracts top athletes; and a sharp decline in (male) adult participation, which is making really difficult for even sub champ clubs to keep going (which in turn will bleed into potl lack of numbers upwards, tho the two are drifting apart). Then you have the concussion issues alarming schools and clubs.

So its a thorny set of issues- and if anything, the attention needs to be on the participation end, and re growing the amateur end. For now prune the top end, rather than trying create new vehicles.....esp in the current economic picture.And tbh, in that context- taking time to sort it out, which started our chat, makes sense. But needs grounding in realism imo.

Slimming it down and concentrating the pro game hasn't been a huge success for Wales though.

I would disagree with your thesis that attention needs to be on the participation end. In schools, absolutely the fuck yes, but at adult level, participation is dropping in every sport and, while we do want to reverse that, it's not players that bring in the income.

What we need is more people like Bristol - we mocked when they brought out the branding and we mocked when they were going to be rattling around in a 27k stadium and we mocked them bringing in a few big ticket players like that would fix their team, but they're currently averaging 18k attendances (third highest in the league) and they're families and young children rather than rugby players and grizzled old ex-rugby players. And that's with them languishing in the wrong half of the table for a season and a half!

We need a bit of ambition and confidence. Act small time and we'll be small time. If rugby doesn't believe in itself as a product, why the hell should anyone else?

Puja

We will have to disagree then, participation has to be a key focus. Though I do agree we can learn from the likes of Sarries, Exeter and Brizz (until we look at their books ). I wouldn't use wales as my model either, rather Ireland (but they did start from having a strong provincial model) plus- I'm suggesting as per WTs proposal.

Ambition and confidence yes, but with a proper plan, rather the sort of thrashing around discussed before and only focusing on the pro game is short sighted.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:02 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:51 am I very much agree with grassroots and the drop over after colts.

Success and a good story around the players involved would generate more interest and a short term boost in through the gate numbers. It would then be up to the RFU to drive it on. It might be helpful with the tournament being in France as the times of the games will be more prime time as opposed to in the morning. The casual sports viewer is more likely to tune in and the neutral pub crowds etc.

There was a surge in numbers post 2003 but rugby is a niche sport so as with the triathlon example it will dip if you don't keep feeding it success.

One of the big issues is that most state schools just don't play rugby.

On the last point, there's a lot of clues about the issues the game faces. My club is doing a load of outreach type work in state schools- but Rugby Union requires a lot of effort to lay on,nquite chunky 'safeguarding' in its broadest sense, and there's increasing parental concern etc, such that even in rugby playing schools, heads are getting nervous. I'm genuinely concerned as you can tell- at my own club there's huge effort going in (as above) but its looking very challenging. There's a side issue in that amateur clubs were essentially run with goodwill and pretty much the same core people doing everything- when you then start to professionalise clubs, that goodwill evaporates quickly.

Maybe if we can get a strategic accord going between pro clubs, amateur clubs and RFU which focuses on the game end to end and has a ten year cycle with community at the heart and growth outwards from that ......it would be a good start at least . At the moment the game just feels very divided, which is understandable with most clubs in survival mode.

Fair points. I would be in favour of a separation of pro and amateur game - if we do this Ultra20 thing, then would it make sense to have one division of optionally semi-pro beneath that for sides that wish to build up to apply for franchises in the future, and then everything else should be amateur?

Puja

The Wales issue was just plonking franchises with no history on the paying public.
Stick Exeter, Bristol, Quins, Sarries, Leicester and Sale in a European and SA league, avoid clashes with internationals give them all a free 30,000 seater stadium and unlimited funds for marketing, and elite rugby in England is set.

Bristol would get a lot more fans in and fill more of that stadium if the price of the tickets wasn't so eye watering. Sorry somewhat off topic.

So Mells you're going to remove the big derby games from the English calendar and then ask Saints fans to support Tigers and Glaws/Bath to support Bristol? Would make the Welsh Regional system seem popular in comparison.

From bits I’ve picked up it’s clear there are lots of people at both the RFU, PRL and the clubs who favour a long term drift towards an Americanised, NFL-type model. A gradual death of adult amateur rugby, just schools and uni, with a bit of minis alongside.

I’ve actually been in the room a few years ago when the Newcastle owner said exactly this for how he sees the game going.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:54 am Bristol would get a lot more fans in and fill more of that stadium if the price of the tickets wasn't so eye watering. Sorry somewhat off topic.

So Mells you're going to remove the big derby games from the English calendar and then ask Saints fans to support Tigers and Glaws/Bath to support Bristol? Would make the Welsh Regional system seem popular in comparison.

Nope. Those clubs would still exist they’d just be on the wrong side of the fence in the second tier. They’d be allowed to join the big boys but would need said 30k seater stadium with no debt. Call it minimum standard criteria…
Though you’ve missed my flippant point that we’re farking miles away from a self-sustaining top tier, let alone have it thriving and expanding (not league size).

Puja, you deletey mcdeleteface you.

I do think that would work, or at least be close to elite pro rugby in England’s best chance, but it’ll never happen. To go back to a previous analogy of mine: I’d like a fortnight in the Maldives with Liz Hurley but a night in a boutique hotel with the long suffering Mrs Mellsblue is the realistic option.

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:01 am From bits I’ve picked up it’s clear there are lots of people at both the RFU, PRL and the clubs who favour a long term drift towards an Americanised, NFL-type model. A gradual death of adult amateur rugby, just schools and uni, with a bit of minis alongside.

I’ve actually been in the room a few years ago when the Newcastle owner said exactly this for how he sees the game going.

Be surprised if the RFU favoured that......but I can imagine PRL not giving a monkeys. Disastrous and sad if so. I remember a well known international player now educator speaking at our club dinner and saying be careful what you wish for if you want a professional England set up- he was right. We may have gained much in terms of skill and quality of rugby across the board, but we have also lost an awful lot.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:24 am Puja, you deletey mcdeleteface you.

I do think that would work, or at least be close to elite pro rugby in England’s best chance, but it’ll never happen. To go back to a previous analogy of mine: I’d like a fortnight in the Maldives with Liz Hurley but a night in a boutique hotel with the long suffering Mrs Mellsblue is the realistic option.

I couldn't work out how to make it funny, so I just binned it off!

Puja

To be honest, from my largely apathetic about club loyalty perspective it looks to me very much rugby is already Americanised - few top teams resemble clubs to me and when tradition is invoked for whatever idea is contrived (Anglo Welsh cup anyone?) I am left cold. I agree with the idea of separating pro and amateur rugby. The latter seems to be more about hordes if minis and juniors than senior teams anyway!

Still, let the saffas rot. Carbon footprints don't favour transcontinental club competitions.

Indeed, I even think we need to abandon the 6 nations and make a European cup frankly. Something needs to change it seems. It'll be interesting seeing the fall out now in the French club game...

Also, mellsblue, surely your imagination extends beyond Liz Hurley? It's nearly 2023 after all!

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:53 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:24 am Puja, you deletey mcdeleteface you.

I do think that would work, or at least be close to elite pro rugby in England’s best chance, but it’ll never happen. To go back to a previous analogy of mine: I’d like a fortnight in the Maldives with Liz Hurley but a night in a boutique hotel with the long suffering Mrs Mellsblue is the realistic option.

I couldn't work out how to make it funny, so I just binned it off!

Puja

I’ve assured that an analogy of glamorous location plus celebrity crush vs current partner and a non glamorous location is a timeless comedy classic.
Unless your name is Mr Mwenda…

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:57 pm Liz Hurley

Another example of a timeless classic.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:21 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:57 pm Liz Hurley

Another example of a timeless classic.

I just think like English rugby, we need to update things.

If you keep the Maldives the core of the old dream remains but we lose the upper class associations.