Munster vs Saints - Sat 5.30pm

[FKAS]

Smith had a poor first 20/25 mins but came good. Needs to add a running game and play a bit close to the line for me but he’s a good young player. He also needs to miss less tackles. I can see him being Sullen Barsteward’s type of flyhalf, ie a good game manager.

I think he plays what's on. The game Vs Glasgow was a great example of that. Fin Smith was running at the line throwing chicken wing offloads etc. Saints looks great this season with Fin happy to play whatever he feels the team needs instead of the high tempo always game that was leftover from the Boys regime.

It's why I prefer him to Marcus, he's happy to vary his game to whatever the team needs. Marcus always wants to run it, which is great for an entertainment factor but doesn't really fly at international level which we've seen with him not getting close to club form even with club mates at 8/9/13 and his club attack coach in place.

I'd give Fin the Italy game. If he impresses he stays in the shirt, if he doesn't then Marcus is sat waiting on the bench to takeover. Ford's form doesn't justify selection currently so let the young tyros battle it out. If we need him Ford can come back into the running later in the tournament. The 6N is somewhat kind as the difficulty level ramps as it goes on.

[Mellsblue]

Smith had a poor first 20/25 mins but came good. Needs to add a running game and play a bit close to the line for me but he’s a good young player. He also needs to miss less tackles. I can see him being Sullen Barsteward’s type of flyhalf, ie a good game manager.

I think he plays what's on. The game Vs Glasgow was a great example of that. Fin Smith was running at the line throwing chicken wing offloads etc. Saints looks great this season with Fin happy to play whatever he feels the team needs instead of the high tempo always game that was leftover from the Boys regime.

It's why I prefer him to Marcus, he's happy to vary his game to whatever the team needs. Marcus always wants to run it, which is great for an entertainment factor but doesn't really fly at international level which we've seen with him not getting close to club form even with club mates at 8/9/13 and his club attack coach in place.

I'd give Fin the Italy game. If he impresses he stays in the shirt, if he doesn't then Marcus is sat waiting on the bench to takeover. Ford's form doesn't justify selection currently so let the young tyros battle it out. If we need him Ford can come back into the running later in the tournament. The 6N is somewhat kind as the difficulty level ramps as it goes on.

I’ve also watched him more than once and my points still stand. I think your opinion on M Smith is wrong but I also think he has work ons, if it helps.
For the umpteenth time, having your club 8, 9 and 13 makes feck all difference if you play in a completely different shape/structure (especially when we’re repeatedly told how poorly the 8 played) which is what M Smith has had to deal with. Nick Evans turned down the gig for a reason…
It’s horses for courses. For example, some want Steward’s security under the high ball rather than someone more dangerous in attack.
Both Smiths are good players but I think Smith is the new hobby horse for those who want a Roundhead approach rather than a cavalier. In my opinion, F Smith looks no better in a top of the table team than Farrell looked in a top of the table team. F Smith is young and does look to have the natural skills of a higher ceiling, mind.

[FKAS]

I disagree Marcus has shown he can play in one system. Tactical fluency is still an issue, England aren't going to play like Quins. Quins stick to their game plan and that probably doesn't help Marcus. I'm still hoping he evolves into a more rounded player, certainly this year he looks better again than last season.

Evans didn't turn down a return to the England setup, Quins blocked it as the world cup clashed with the start of the new Prem season.

Fin Smith is the league's form 10 for me. He is reminiscent of a young Ford and for me deserves a shot at the shirt. With Italy first up it makes sense for that to the the game. Fin Smith is flourishing in one of (if not the) best attacks in the Prem and maybe Europe. One of the reasons for the increased Saints success is the better tactical kicking from Fin who's putting them in the right areas, last night Vs Munster being a prime example of a game Saints would have certainly lost in prior seasons.

I disagree it's either Roundheads or Cavaliers. It's not a choice between stodge or Baabaas rugby. France are the most kick happy team in international rugby but also have one of the most fun attacks. It's shades of grey and we're all hoping that the shade changes significantly this 6N though I'd imagine the kicking game will remain outside of the opposition half.

[paddy no 11]

No way that’s a red.

It’s bollox

Curtis done there

Bloody Donal Lenehan practically demanding he be hanged. I would have liked to have seen it in real time again before passing judgement.

Wow that was a cracker - thought Northampton were done and dusted. Lawes was immense and I really like the look of Finn Smith there.

That's a red, chaneced his luck with a cheapshot and got caught, no point critiscing refs for calling it right

[fivepointer]

Big statement win from Saints. Winning away with 14 is some going.

Fin Smith has matured at quite a rate. He's ready for England duty.

[Oakboy]

I disagree Marcus has shown he can play in one system. Tactical fluency is still an issue, England aren't going to play like Quins. Quins stick to their game plan and that probably doesn't help Marcus. I'm still hoping he evolves into a more rounded player, certainly this year he looks better again than last season.

Evans didn't turn down a return to the England setup, Quins blocked it as the world cup clashed with the start of the new Prem season.

Fin Smith is the league's form 10 for me. He is reminiscent of a young Ford and for me deserves a shot at the shirt. With Italy first up it makes sense for that to the the game. Fin Smith is flourishing in one of (if not the) best attacks in the Prem and maybe Europe. One of the reasons for the increased Saints success is the better tactical kicking from Fin who's putting them in the right areas, last night Vs Munster being a prime example of a game Saints would have certainly lost in prior seasons.

I disagree it's either Roundheads or Cavaliers. It's not a choice between stodge or Baabaas rugby. France are the most kick happy team in international rugby but also have one of the most fun attacks. It's shades of grey and we're all hoping that the shade changes significantly this 6N though I'd imagine the kicking game will remain outside of the opposition half.

Regardless of descriptive titles, I think MS can do everything that FS can do but has extra with his running game. Comparing Quins and Saints playing style is irrelevant to performing for England. Even thinking FS has an advantage because he plays club rugby with Mitchell matters little because Mitchell plays differently for England.

We are talking about Borthwick here. He is little different from Jones in demanding prescriptive rugby. Neither head coach can accept players adapting as they see fit to the game (would either pick Finn Russell if he was English?). My fear is that SB will pick FS as Farrell-esque i.e. will stick to script more. That effectively lowers the team's ceiling.

[Mellsblue]

I disagree Marcus has shown he can play in one system. Tactical fluency is still an issue, England aren't going to play like Quins. Quins stick to their game plan and that probably doesn't help Marcus. I'm still hoping he evolves into a more rounded player, certainly this year he looks better again than last season.

Evans didn't turn down a return to the England setup, Quins blocked it as the world cup clashed with the start of the new Prem season.

Fin Smith is the league's form 10 for me. He is reminiscent of a young Ford and for me deserves a shot at the shirt. With Italy first up it makes sense for that to the the game. Fin Smith is flourishing in one of (if not the) best attacks in the Prem and maybe Europe. One of the reasons for the increased Saints success is the better tactical kicking from Fin who's putting them in the right areas, last night Vs Munster being a prime example of a game Saints would have certainly lost in prior seasons.

I disagree it's either Roundheads or Cavaliers. It's not a choice between stodge or Baabaas rugby. France are the most kick happy team in international rugby but also have one of the most fun attacks. It's shades of grey and we're all hoping that the shade changes significantly this 6N though I'd imagine the kicking game will remain outside of the opposition half.

There’s so much missing the point in that.

Smith has actually played well for England but you seemingly don’t want to see it. And that is despite being in a completely dysfunctional setup. He does play what he sees. Everyone is lauding F Smith for the switch of direction and kick to touch, which was good, but then M Smith did pretty much the same for Quins earlier but he actually saw the space early enough that he took the ball after moving to the blindside and therefore created the ability to run the ball if it was on - it wasn’t so he kicked into touch from a very tight angle.

I concede Quins blocked Evans from returning. I was conflating the rumours that Evans didn’t enjoy working within SB’s strictures.

F Smith maybe the form 10, it’s obvs subjective, but, as you say yourself, he’s in one of the best attacks in Europe in the Prem’s form side and, as I stated earlier, Farrell has looked like a great Prem flyhalf in very similar circumstances… I agree that Saints would’ve probs lost that last season but they’re a different team this season so it’s moot. Even if it weren’t moot, I doubt you can put it all on the 10 and that’s before you remember who Saints’ 10 was last season.

The final para is really the biggest missing of the point. I’m aware there’s a place between stodge and BaaBaas - that’s not exactly ROG level analysis - but I’m not going produce a lengthy tome spelling out what I mean as I hoping all on here will understand without it being spelled out.

[Banquo]

BTW Pearson was an authentic lineout option today, which is another string to his bow. Downside was again spilling the ball in contact, albeit tricky conditions.

[Margin_Walker]

BTW Pearson was an authentic lineout option today, which is another string to his bow. Downside was again spilling the ball in contact, albeit tricky conditions.

Pearson's not being a lineout option was always overplayed a touch. He wasn't used much there for LI, as Gonzales and Rogerson has the role from 6, rather than him not being capable. Pearson played his whole BUCs career in the second row, so is an option at the back.

Bigger concern at the moment is despite the hat trick the other week, his all round form is a touch down on last season. He's not really standing out in the same way he was.

[FKAS]

I disagree Marcus has shown he can play in one system. Tactical fluency is still an issue, England aren't going to play like Quins. Quins stick to their game plan and that probably doesn't help Marcus. I'm still hoping he evolves into a more rounded player, certainly this year he looks better again than last season.

Evans didn't turn down a return to the England setup, Quins blocked it as the world cup clashed with the start of the new Prem season.

Fin Smith is the league's form 10 for me. He is reminiscent of a young Ford and for me deserves a shot at the shirt. With Italy first up it makes sense for that to the the game. Fin Smith is flourishing in one of (if not the) best attacks in the Prem and maybe Europe. One of the reasons for the increased Saints success is the better tactical kicking from Fin who's putting them in the right areas, last night Vs Munster being a prime example of a game Saints would have certainly lost in prior seasons.

I disagree it's either Roundheads or Cavaliers. It's not a choice between stodge or Baabaas rugby. France are the most kick happy team in international rugby but also have one of the most fun attacks. It's shades of grey and we're all hoping that the shade changes significantly this 6N though I'd imagine the kicking game will remain outside of the opposition half.

There’s so much missing the point in that.

Smith has actually played well for England but you seemingly don’t want to see it. And that is despite being in a completely dysfunctional setup. He does play what he sees. Everyone is lauding F Smith for the switch of direction and kick to touch, which was good, but then M Smith did pretty much the same for Quins earlier but he actually saw the space early enough that he took the ball after moving to the blindside and therefore created the ability to run the ball if it was on - it wasn’t so he kicked into touch from a very tight angle.

I concede Quins blocked Evans from returning. I was conflating the rumours that Evans didn’t enjoy working within SB’s strictures.

F Smith maybe the form 10, it’s obvs subjective, but, as you say yourself, he’s in one of the best attacks in Europe in the Prem’s form side and, as I stated earlier, Farrell has looked like a great Prem flyhalf in very similar circumstances… I agree that Saints would’ve probs lost that last season but they’re a different team this season so it’s moot. Even if it weren’t moot, I doubt you can put it all on the 10 and that’s before you remember who Saints’ 10 was last season.

The final para is really the biggest missing of the point. I’m aware there’s a place between stodge and BaaBaas - that’s not exactly ROG level analysis - but I’m not going produce a lengthy tome spelling out what I mean as I hoping all on here will understand without it being spelled out.

I'd love to see it but bar the game Vs South Africa when he first broke in and a couple of flashes from fullback he's shown very little in an England shirt.

He always plays well for Quins which is the frustration.

You're on the Marcus is the saviour bandwagon, that's fine but I don't see it, though I'd happily be proven wrong.

[Mellsblue]

I disagree Marcus has shown he can play in one system. Tactical fluency is still an issue, England aren't going to play like Quins. Quins stick to their game plan and that probably doesn't help Marcus. I'm still hoping he evolves into a more rounded player, certainly this year he looks better again than last season.

Evans didn't turn down a return to the England setup, Quins blocked it as the world cup clashed with the start of the new Prem season.

Fin Smith is the league's form 10 for me. He is reminiscent of a young Ford and for me deserves a shot at the shirt. With Italy first up it makes sense for that to the the game. Fin Smith is flourishing in one of (if not the) best attacks in the Prem and maybe Europe. One of the reasons for the increased Saints success is the better tactical kicking from Fin who's putting them in the right areas, last night Vs Munster being a prime example of a game Saints would have certainly lost in prior seasons.

I disagree it's either Roundheads or Cavaliers. It's not a choice between stodge or Baabaas rugby. France are the most kick happy team in international rugby but also have one of the most fun attacks. It's shades of grey and we're all hoping that the shade changes significantly this 6N though I'd imagine the kicking game will remain outside of the opposition half.

There’s so much missing the point in that.

Smith has actually played well for England but you seemingly don’t want to see it. And that is despite being in a completely dysfunctional setup. He does play what he sees. Everyone is lauding F Smith for the switch of direction and kick to touch, which was good, but then M Smith did pretty much the same for Quins earlier but he actually saw the space early enough that he took the ball after moving to the blindside and therefore created the ability to run the ball if it was on - it wasn’t so he kicked into touch from a very tight angle.

I concede Quins blocked Evans from returning. I was conflating the rumours that Evans didn’t enjoy working within SB’s strictures.

F Smith maybe the form 10, it’s obvs subjective, but, as you say yourself, he’s in one of the best attacks in Europe in the Prem’s form side and, as I stated earlier, Farrell has looked like a great Prem flyhalf in very similar circumstances… I agree that Saints would’ve probs lost that last season but they’re a different team this season so it’s moot. Even if it weren’t moot, I doubt you can put it all on the 10 and that’s before you remember who Saints’ 10 was last season.

The final para is really the biggest missing of the point. I’m aware there’s a place between stodge and BaaBaas - that’s not exactly ROG level analysis - but I’m not going produce a lengthy tome spelling out what I mean as I hoping all on here will understand without it being spelled out.

I'd love to see it but bar the game Vs South Africa when he first broke in and a couple of flashes from fullback he's shown very little in an England shirt.

He always plays well for Quins which is the frustration.

You're on the Marcus is the saviour bandwagon, that's fine but I don't see it, though I'd happily be proven wrong.

I’d suggest that you’re so dug in that you can’t see it. See blindness over Farrell , Benny, Steward etc etc You did change your mind eventually on the first two

Not on the Marcus is the saviour bandwagon - he’s got plenty to work on, as previously stated. I just think he’s a better player than F Smith, atm, and has a larger back catalogue of top level play - not surprising given their relative experience/age - and should be given first shot to nail the shirt in a team where he’s the fulcrum.
As you said, F Smith does play in a similar fashion to Ford, albeit nowhere near his class so far, and given I’d happily argue Ford has been the best 10 in the world in the past 6/7/8 years I’d happily have F Smith supplant M Smith if I believe he becomes the better player of the two.

[Mellsblue]

It’s bollox

Curtis done there

Bloody Donal Lenehan practically demanding he be hanged. I would have liked to have seen it in real time again before passing judgement.

Wow that was a cracker - thought Northampton were done and dusted. Lawes was immense and I really like the look of Finn Smith there.

That's a red, chaneced his luck with a cheapshot and got caught, no point critiscing refs for calling it right

I didn’t realise mind reading was a talent of yours… I’m assuming you read his mind as two yellows in his entire career would suggest he’s not a dirty player.

[paddy no 11]

Whataboutery- he's drawn his knee forward to strike a prone player, not the worst you'll ever see but it's a red all day

[Mellsblue]

Whataboutery- he's drawn his knee forward to strike a prone player, not the worst you'll ever see but it's a red all day

Not really whataboutery. Just some evidence to counter your mind reading.

[Banquo]

BTW Pearson was an authentic lineout option today, which is another string to his bow. Downside was again spilling the ball in contact, albeit tricky conditions.

so is an option at the back.

Bigger concern at the moment is despite the hat trick the other week, his all round form is a touch down on last season. He's not really standing out in the same way he was.

He was used at the front mostly so there is that....and as I said, rest of game, could be better

[Banquo]

Whataboutery- he's drawn his knee forward to strike a prone player, not the worst you'll ever see but it's a red all day

Looked accidental to me. Real time v slo mo.More remarkable was Munster choking.

[paddy no 11]

Whataboutery- he's drawn his knee forward to strike a prone player, not the worst you'll ever see but it's a red all day

Looked accidental to me. Real time v slo mo.More remarkable was Munster choking.

Not our 1st choke this season, we don't really have any topline frontrowers and it's really costing us

[Banquo]

Whataboutery- he's drawn his knee forward to strike a prone player, not the worst you'll ever see but it's a red all day

Looked accidental to me. Real time v slo mo.More remarkable was Munster choking.

Not our 1st choke this season, we don't really have any topline frontrowers and it's really costing us

fair

[paddy no 11]

Looks like they'll play again in R16

[FKAS]

There’s so much missing the point in that.

Smith has actually played well for England but you seemingly don’t want to see it. And that is despite being in a completely dysfunctional setup. He does play what he sees. Everyone is lauding F Smith for the switch of direction and kick to touch, which was good, but then M Smith did pretty much the same for Quins earlier but he actually saw the space early enough that he took the ball after moving to the blindside and therefore created the ability to run the ball if it was on - it wasn’t so he kicked into touch from a very tight angle.

I concede Quins blocked Evans from returning. I was conflating the rumours that Evans didn’t enjoy working within SB’s strictures.

F Smith maybe the form 10, it’s obvs subjective, but, as you say yourself, he’s in one of the best attacks in Europe in the Prem’s form side and, as I stated earlier, Farrell has looked like a great Prem flyhalf in very similar circumstances… I agree that Saints would’ve probs lost that last season but they’re a different team this season so it’s moot. Even if it weren’t moot, I doubt you can put it all on the 10 and that’s before you remember who Saints’ 10 was last season.

The final para is really the biggest missing of the point. I’m aware there’s a place between stodge and BaaBaas - that’s not exactly ROG level analysis - but I’m not going produce a lengthy tome spelling out what I mean as I hoping all on here will understand without it being spelled out.

I'd love to see it but bar the game Vs South Africa when he first broke in and a couple of flashes from fullback he's shown very little in an England shirt.

He always plays well for Quins which is the frustration.

You're on the Marcus is the saviour bandwagon, that's fine but I don't see it, though I'd happily be proven wrong.

I’d suggest that you’re so dug in that you can’t see it. See blindness over Farrell , Benny, Steward etc etc You did change your mind eventually on the first two

Ha, Farrell. I spent most of Eddie's years moaning about Farrell being an anchor around Ford's neck. Benny did a good job of playing the tactics for years but eventually age did catch up with him. I'm happy for form to be the basis for selection. Hence not minding Benny dropping out or advocating Ford dropping to third choice despite being in agreement with you over how good he's been for a number of years (a lot of tape on his knee today and he didn't seem to be moving that freely).

Steward is very good if you want your fullback to be secure and reliable. If you want explosive runs from the back then not so much. He's showing the Mike Brown beat the first man make a few metres and get tackled carrying efforts currently which is normally good enough to get some decent ball into the hands of his halfbacks though Tigers are excellent at ruining quick ball.

The main problem I see with Marcus is that whenever anyone defends him it's always that the system is wrong. Doesn't matter if it's the simple Borthwick game plan or Eddie's no position attack. Even when the backs kicking game is created by his club attack coach. It's always the wrong system. He needs to show that tactical versatility, we know he's fantastic playing for Quins in their gung ho style of play but England are unlikely to ever play that system.

[Mellsblue]

I'd love to see it but bar the game Vs South Africa when he first broke in and a couple of flashes from fullback he's shown very little in an England shirt.

He always plays well for Quins which is the frustration.

You're on the Marcus is the saviour bandwagon, that's fine but I don't see it, though I'd happily be proven wrong.

I’d suggest that you’re so dug in that you can’t see it. See blindness over Farrell , Benny, Steward etc etc You did change your mind eventually on the first two

Ha, Farrell. I spent most of Eddie's years moaning about Farrell being an anchor around Ford's neck. Benny did a good job of playing the tactics for years but eventually age did catch up with him. I'm happy for form to be the basis for selection. Hence not minding Benny dropping out or advocating Ford dropping to third choice despite being in agreement with you over how good he's been for a number of years (a lot of tape on his knee today and he didn't seem to be moving that freely).

Steward is very good if you want your fullback to be secure and reliable. If you want explosive runs from the back then not so much. He's showing the Mike Brown beat the first man make a few metres and get tackled carrying efforts currently which is normally good enough to get some decent ball into the hands of his halfbacks though Tigers are excellent at ruining quick ball.

The main problem I see with Marcus is that whenever anyone defends him it's always that the system is wrong. Doesn't matter if it's the simple Borthwick game plan or Eddie's no position attack. Even when the backs kicking game is created by his club attack coach. It's always the wrong system. He needs to show that tactical versatility, we know he's fantastic playing for Quins in their gung ho style of play but England are unlikely to ever play that system.

You stuck by Benny long after it was obvious he was done. Whilst your defence of Steward is well, we’ve been over it a number of times…

You have defended Farrell numerous times but let’s say you did spend ‘most of Eddie's years moaning about Farrell being an anchor around Ford's neck’ why do you not say the same about Smith having the same anchor whilst in the clusterfuck of numberless rugby or whatever Jones called his vanity driven bs. Surely Ford just needed to ‘show that tactical flexibility’…

We/they defend M Smith because Eddie’s system was chronically bad, everyone looked crap, and Borthwick’s was chronically stunted, everyone looked crap, and the results during those periods were chronically crap regardless of who played at 10 - please don’t tell me getting to a RWC semi and then losing to the only good team we played was a good set of results.

If Borthwick wants to keep with the stunted structure then he shouldn’t pick M Smith, he should pick Ford or F Smith. What we shouldn’t do is judge M Smith on having to play in that crap - just look at England’s results in the past couple of years regardless of who is at 10 - because his club attack coach has allegedly brought in a kicking game that bears no resemblance to that which he has at his club, ie I doubt it’s true. Even if it is true it’s such a tiny part of the plan it’s a bs argument. Given the other 98% of the game plan is completely alien to what Quins do it’s like asking Farrell to play like Beudan Barrett or Finn Russell to play like Pollard. This line that he has to be tactically flexible/play what’s in front of him is a red herring, if I’m being kind. What you are really saying is that he must play well in a system that is alien to his skill set, ie his coaches failed him. It’s not exactly rocket science to pick the correct playmaker to suit your system or if you pick a flyhalf to put in a system that maximises them.

Anyway, we’ve been over this a millions times and we don’t agree. I suspect the only time we would agree about it is if M Smith moved to play for Leicester…
I’ll leave it here.

[Timbo]

We had Ford-Farrell at 10/12 for years, time to go Smith-Smith. Everyone’s happy.

[Banquo]

We had Ford-Farrell at 10/12 for years, time to go Smith-Smith. Everyone’s happy.

[Puja]

Whataboutery- he's drawn his knee forward to strike a prone player, not the worst you'll ever see but it's a red all day

That's an incredibly ungenerous interpretation, drawn from incredibly slow slow-motion. He's not aiming or looking down, he's wrestling with the opposition at the ruck, he's driving forwards - at real speed, there's miliseconds between the Munster player falling onto his knee, hitting the floor, and then his knee hitting his face. If he's done that deliberately, then it's an incredible act of skill and reactions.

Thought it was a comedy decision by the ref myself - poor call to rule it deliberate in the first place, then to declare it a red because the player was injured when the contact that actually injured him was the first one. It'll 100% get overturned on the citing review.

To me, the only cheap shot in that game was the Munster player who slid feet first into Graham when he dived for his try.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

We had Ford-Farrell at 10/12 for years, time to go Smith-Smith. Everyone’s happy.

Finally a sensible suggestion.