England v Wales; Saturday, 4.45. ITV / S4C

[Which Tyler]

Barbeary be banned.

Unless I missed something, it was a two-week ban, which has been served (assuming he actually passed / attended tackle school)

[Banquo]

Why, when Dombrandt has been demonstrably the best 8 in the league this season, and is in the squad, are people ignoring him to play his understudy or someone outside the squad at 8?

Because non quins fans think he's a bit meh at intl level.

Not sure myself. Tho quoting league form is demonstrably not a good translation to intl level, as said a fair bit before. He has been selected when at the heady heights you describe previously.

[Banquo]

Barbeary be banned.

Unless I missed something, no, he isnt

should have said..been banned, and ergo not selected originally. Thanks for the polite edit (assume he did pass tackle school, tho one never knows)

[Stom]

Why, when Dombrandt has been demonstrably the best 8 in the league this season, and is in the squad, are people ignoring him to play his understudy or someone outside the squad at 8?

Because non quins fans think he's a bit meh at intl level.

Not sure myself. Tho quoting league form is demonstrably not a good translation to intl level, as said a fair bit before. He has been selected when at the heady heights you describe previously.

My point is that this England team, on the weekend's showing, is lacking several things, one of which can be solved with personnel - adding more dynamic carrying. Too often we weren't making the yards. Partly because only one of our backrows was actually carrying to any impact. Adding another carrying threat who isn't Will Stuart, is probably a good idea.

Sure, it won't correct the myriad of other issues, but it will help with a pretty major one.

And on the other hand, it's just like when Robshaw was ignored for years after he was "rubbish" in one match where the whole team around him was rubbish, and he worked his ass off for no reward. Sure, as players they're pretty opposites, but on the other hand...

The clamoring for Mercer, by me, too, who won player of the year in France...only to be comprehensively outplayed by Dombrandt (yes, caveat for settled team vs crap team)...and then completely ignored by SB.

I just don't trust SBs judgement when it comes to players. I don't trust that he's picking from the right PoV.

[p/d]

I just hope Martin is back asap.

Chessum to bench.

Would really like to see AD at 8 alongside Earl at 7.

and Steward at 12.

[Banquo]

Why, when Dombrandt has been demonstrably the best 8 in the league this season, and is in the squad, are people ignoring him to play his understudy or someone outside the squad at 8?

Because non quins fans think he's a bit meh at intl level.

Not sure myself. Tho quoting league form is demonstrably not a good translation to intl level, as said a fair bit before. He has been selected when at the heady heights you describe previously.

My point is that this England team, on the weekend's showing, is lacking several things, one of which can be solved with personnel - adding more dynamic carrying. Too often we weren't making the yards. Partly because only one of our backrows was actually carrying to any impact. Adding another carrying threat who isn't Will Stuart, is probably a good idea.

Sure, it won't correct the myriad of other issues, but it will help with a pretty major one.

And on the other hand, it's just like when Robshaw was ignored for years after he was "rubbish" in one match where the whole team around him was rubbish, and he worked his ass off for no reward. Sure, as players they're pretty opposites, but on the other hand...

The clamoring for Mercer, by me, too, who won player of the year in France...only to be comprehensively outplayed by Dombrandt (yes, caveat for settled team vs crap team)...and then completely ignored by SB.

I just don't trust SBs judgement when it comes to players. I don't trust that he's picking from the right PoV.

we`ve not had enough 'dynamism' in carrying for ages, inc yer mans caps.

[SixAndAHalf]

I'm not totally against Dombrandt but he did get an extended run in the team and failed to impress. I appreciate that his form may have improved since but I get the sense that his "super-strengths" at Prem level can be nullified a bit more easily at international level and also not sure if England suit how he wants to play.

I believe Barbeary has a higher ceiling and a more "international ready" game and Mercer offers a different level of athleticism, although admit England game plan may not suit him either.

[Spiffy]

I'm not totally against Dombrandt but he did get an extended run in the team and failed to impress. I appreciate that his form may have improved since but I get the sense that his "super-strengths" at Prem level can be nullified a bit more easily at international level and also not sure if England suit how he wants to play.

I believe Barbeary has a higher ceiling and a more "international ready" game and Mercer offers a different level of athleticism, although admit England game plan may not suit him either.

Since the England game plan does not seem to work that well, perhaps they should think of selecting a different roster of players and developing a new game plan around their strengths.

[Banquo]

I'm not totally against Dombrandt but he did get an extended run in the team and failed to impress. I appreciate that his form may have improved since but I get the sense that his "super-strengths" at Prem level can be nullified a bit more easily at international level and also not sure if England suit how he wants to play.

I believe Barbeary has a higher ceiling and a more "international ready" game and Mercer offers a different level of athleticism, although admit England game plan may not suit him either.

Since the England game plan does not seem to work that well, perhaps they should think of selecting a different roster of players and developing a new game plan around their strengths.

who and what......

i think we aren't far away from the best set of players, but i agree how (and how well) they play needs a look. And I'm not sure how often you can go down the 'its a new team/coaches' route tbh.

[Stom]

I'm not totally against Dombrandt but he did get an extended run in the team and failed to impress. I appreciate that his form may have improved since but I get the sense that his "super-strengths" at Prem level can be nullified a bit more easily at international level and also not sure if England suit how he wants to play.

I believe Barbeary has a higher ceiling and a more "international ready" game and Mercer offers a different level of athleticism, although admit England game plan may not suit him either.

Since the England game plan does not seem to work that well, perhaps they should think of selecting a different roster of players and developing a new game plan around their strengths.

Well indeed.

If the gameplan suits literally 2 or 3 of our players...it's not the right plan.

And it doesn't seem to suit anyone.

I know that moving toward what France and Ireland are doing is hard, and SOUTH AFRICA ARE DOUBLE WORLD CHAMPIONS SO WE MUST COPY THEM AT ALL COSTS, but if you start building toward it now, we can get there, and the rugby will be watchable.

[FKAS]

Well the game plan is changing and it's not a copy of South Africa. We saw less kicking, more use of the ball and the wingers coming looking for work Vs Italy. The new defensive system looked to be lacking cohesion but in attack their were signs we actually wanted to use the backs for more than a crash ball. Might just take a little while to bed in.

Borthwick knows the type of player he wants up front. Mobile, physical and with a high work rate on both sides of the ball. We should be able to accomplish that though some of the options might need to work on elements to make the cut. Mercer and Dombrant will have been told what they need to do.

[p/d]

Damn Tom Willis for getting injured. Instead of debating the 8 berth we could have focused on the wee head bandage Underhill took to the pitch with

[Oakboy]

I think the team will take time to throw off the shackles related to Farrell's domination: a 'kick as default' policy, safety-first on penalties to touch and 'nothing matters more than my feistiness'. There has to be doubt about whether Ford can free his brain and play it as he sees it - especially if it takes the nerve to do so when the game demands it but it is against coaching instruction.

Asking Fin Smith to re-define the approach is more demanding than asking Marcus.

I see it as a related issue with defence. It is not just alignment/system but improvisation. Improved attacking intent brings risks. Defending against the opposition possession from long-distance kicking is like a well-thrown safety blanket compared with defending against turnovers. Mike Davis used to preach about working on defending against cock-ups. That accounted for a lot of the time in training, he maintained. Communication was key.

[Mikey Brown]

I think the team will take time to throw off the shackles related to Farrell's domination: a 'kick as default' policy, safety-first on penalties to touch and 'nothing matters more than my feistiness'. There has to be doubt about whether Ford can free his brain and play it as he sees it - especially if it takes the nerve to do so when the game demands it but it is against coaching instruction.

Asking Fin Smith to re-define the approach is more demanding than asking Marcus.

I see it as a related issue with defence. It is not just alignment/system but improvisation. Improved attacking intent brings risks. Defending against the opposition possession from long-distance kicking is like a well-thrown safety blanket compared with defending against turnovers. Mike Davis used to preach about working on defending against cock-ups. That accounted for a lot of the time in training, he maintained. Communication was key.

I do find your comments about Farrell and his sway over the team to border on OTT quite regularly, but it's only really just dawned on me that our attack coach was a player who has spent a considerable amount of the last few years taking orders from Faz on the pitch.

I think there's a limit to how much Faz or Ford personally define the play style. I genuinely don't know at this point whether Borthwick even wants Ford to "free his brain". He is/was a great player, but I don't know that he really has that inclination much anymore, even if he were the type to go against the coaches orders in the first place.

I appreciate this post was jam packed with contradictions, but that's just where we are as a team right now. Let's get a shiny new thing in place please.

[twitchy]

Has there been any word on how serious marcus smith's injury is?

[Oakboy]

I think the team will take time to throw off the shackles related to Farrell's domination: a 'kick as default' policy, safety-first on penalties to touch and 'nothing matters more than my feistiness'. There has to be doubt about whether Ford can free his brain and play it as he sees it - especially if it takes the nerve to do so when the game demands it but it is against coaching instruction.

Asking Fin Smith to re-define the approach is more demanding than asking Marcus.

I see it as a related issue with defence. It is not just alignment/system but improvisation. Improved attacking intent brings risks. Defending against the opposition possession from long-distance kicking is like a well-thrown safety blanket compared with defending against turnovers. Mike Davis used to preach about working on defending against cock-ups. That accounted for a lot of the time in training, he maintained. Communication was key.

I do find your comments about Farrell and his sway over the team to border on OTT quite regularly, but it's only really just dawned on me that our attack coach was a player who has spent a considerable amount of the last few years taking orders from Faz on the pitch.

I think there's a limit to how much Faz or Ford personally define the play style. I genuinely don't know at this point whether Borthwick even wants Ford to "free his brain". He is/was a great player, but I don't know that he really has that inclination much anymore, even if he were the type to go against the coaches orders in the first place.

I appreciate this post was jam packed with contradictions, but that's just where we are as a team right now. Let's get a shiny new thing in place please.

Let's agree on that, certainly.

Farrell (and others, but him mainly) gave his all for his country but, whether you like what he offers or not, he had certainly reached his peak. The only way for the team to climb is without him. I think others need to follow him through the exit but I am resigned to it being a gradual process.

Your point about Wigglesworth is interesting. Does anybody but SB rate him as a coach?

[twitchy]

Just because a player played with a certain style it doesn't mean they will coach that. I can imagine wiggy being a sort of 'tactics nerd' equivalent of borthers for the backs.

[p/d]

I can imagine wiggy being a sort of 'tactics nerd' equivalent of borthers for the backs.

oh joy

[Oakboy]

Just because a player played with a certain style it doesn't mean they will coach that. I can imagine wiggy being a sort of 'tactics nerd' equivalent of borthers for the backs.

I would expect a quality international attack coach to be full of ideas and to love the challenge of out-thinking each opposition defence coach before every match. For all I know about him (as a coach), Wigglesworth may be capable of fulfilling that expectation but nothing about the team's play so far fills me with confidence.

[Banquo]

Borthwick knows the type of player he wants up front. Mobile, physical and with a high work rate on both sides of the ball.

I think pretty much every coach wants that, though usually with some skill and decision making capacity and set piece skills.

[Spiffy]

I'm not totally against Dombrandt but he did get an extended run in the team and failed to impress. I appreciate that his form may have improved since but I get the sense that his "super-strengths" at Prem level can be nullified a bit more easily at international level and also not sure if England suit how he wants to play.

I believe Barbeary has a higher ceiling and a more "international ready" game and Mercer offers a different level of athleticism, although admit England game plan may not suit him either.

Since the England game plan does not seem to work that well, perhaps they should think of selecting a different roster of players and developing a new game plan around their strengths.

who and what......

i think we aren't far away from the best set of players, but i agree how (and how well) they play needs a look. And I'm not sure how often you can go down the 'its a new team/coaches' route tbh.

Agree that there aren't too many alternative/better players out there, but feel that England could do better with the same bunch but a different approach. They are clearly playing too much formulaic rugby based on a kicking game and you feel the backs are not backed to express themselves and play more creatively/spontaneously. There were a few positive changes v. Italy, especially with the Freeman roving role. As many here have noted, the team needs a powerful, straight running 12 who can attract defenders and also offload when it's on. In the absence of an outstanding candidate, I think Lawrence could do a job, though he may be seen by many as a 13 and would need some bedding in.

[Banquo]

Since the England game plan does not seem to work that well, perhaps they should think of selecting a different roster of players and developing a new game plan around their strengths.

who and what......

i think we aren't far away from the best set of players, but i agree how (and how well) they play needs a look. And I'm not sure how often you can go down the 'its a new team/coaches' route tbh.

Agree that there aren't too many alternative/better players out there, but feel that England could do better with the same bunch but a different approach.

Totally agree.

[twitchy]

[FKAS]

First phase move George North runs down the 10/12 channel. Hope we've prepared for that better than last week.

[Banquo]

First phase move George North runs down the 10/12 channel. Hope we've prepared for that better than last week.

If selected, Underhill just needs to be awake if from 1st phase