Exeter v Bath

[Mikey Brown]

Last line made me lol. I wasn’t expecting that to be a part of your summary. I don’t disagree, he’s an oddly similar player to Grant Gilchrist who is somehow a sure starter for Scotland.

I think most of those players want a heftier tight-head lock alongside them and I’m not sure who does that best after Martin, who doesn’t seem to be able to stay fit for very long. Is Coles more that sort of player? He’s a big lad with good skills but not sure what he’s like in the scrum and maul.

[16th man]

It is to be hoped that Ewels really has now made the step up to being international quality, otherwise there are some questions about why the whole concept of coaching, and the impact of the fabled lists of "work ons", doesn't work for English players.

Ewels is desperately underrated in general - he's always been a much better player than we've given him credit for (not helped by being religiously picked for EPS squads at one point despite being terribly out of form). He does look a lot better after his recovery and South African adventure though. I wouldn't have him above Itoje/Chessum/Martin and, while they're very different players, I'd probably pick Coles over him too, but he's an excellent fifth choice who would probably make the Scotland XXIII on current form.

Puja

I think that the ambition of the pathway through academies, and evidence that its working, should be that "good premiership player" is absolutely of the level that the phrase can be taken as read to also mean capable of being 5th lock in an England squad, and able to fill in in extremis and not be found wanting.

Is it typical English arrogance to suggest that also should also mean "good enough to be in the Scottish matchday squad".

I think there were definitely some positions where we were starting to head that way following the Andrew intervention and before the Ryan interruption.

[Puja]

Last line made me lol. I wasn’t expecting that to be a part of your summary. I don’t disagree, he’s an oddly similar player to Grant Gilchrist who is somehow a sure starter for Scotland.

I think most of those players want a heftier tight-head lock alongside them and I’m not sure who does that best after Martin, who doesn’t seem to be able to stay fit for very long. Is Coles more that sort of player? He’s a big lad with good skills but not sure what he’s like in the scrum and maul.

Admittedly it's more of an inditement of your current locking reserves than necessarily boasting! I also wouldn't've said he was a worse player than Will Rowlands, who the Welsh rate so highly.

Coles did do an excellent job coming on in the scrums at the start of the 6N, but he's not exactly a hefty tight-head lock type! Itoje has the advantage of being good enough that he can cover both types - he can play alongside Martin as the looser option, or alongside Chessum or Coles as the tighter option. I think, if Itoje and Martin were unavailable, I'd probably pick Ewels over a Chessum/Coles partnership.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

It is to be hoped that Ewels really has now made the step up to being international quality, otherwise there are some questions about why the whole concept of coaching, and the impact of the fabled lists of "work ons", doesn't work for English players.

Ewels is desperately underrated in general - he's always been a much better player than we've given him credit for (not helped by being religiously picked for EPS squads at one point despite being terribly out of form). He does look a lot better after his recovery and South African adventure though. I wouldn't have him above Itoje/Chessum/Martin and, while they're very different players, I'd probably pick Coles over him too, but he's an excellent fifth choice who would probably make the Scotland XXIII on current form.

Puja

Are we saying that players can go abroad and come back improved and we should therefore relax the ‘exceptional circumstances’ rule. (Insert five tongue in cheek emojis here)

[Puja]

It is to be hoped that Ewels really has now made the step up to being international quality, otherwise there are some questions about why the whole concept of coaching, and the impact of the fabled lists of "work ons", doesn't work for English players.

Ewels is desperately underrated in general - he's always been a much better player than we've given him credit for (not helped by being religiously picked for EPS squads at one point despite being terribly out of form). He does look a lot better after his recovery and South African adventure though. I wouldn't have him above Itoje/Chessum/Martin and, while they're very different players, I'd probably pick Coles over him too, but he's an excellent fifth choice who would probably make the Scotland XXIII on current form.

Puja

Are we saying that players can go abroad and come back improved and we should therefore relax the ‘exceptional circumstances’ rule. (Insert five tongue in cheek emojis here)

Sure, I'm absolutely in favour of players taking a 6 month sabbatical inbetween international windows!

Puja

[Banquo]

My own little side issue was comparing Ojomoh (who others seem to rate) with Devoto (who rarely gets a mention these days). Having also watched Dingwall and Kelly earlier, I saw no reason to change my view that the best 12 from both matches was playing at 13 for Bath. The second best was playing at 13 for Exeter.

Having said that, Slade should be starting at 10. He would gel well with Devoto and Wimbush outside him. If funds are tight that solution might enable Exeter to concentrate on signing a quality SH.

Dingwall was absolutely outstanding at 12 so not quite sure what you were watching.

[FKAS]

My own little side issue was comparing Ojomoh (who others seem to rate) with Devoto (who rarely gets a mention these days). Having also watched Dingwall and Kelly earlier, I saw no reason to change my view that the best 12 from both matches was playing at 13 for Bath. The second best was playing at 13 for Exeter.

Having said that, Slade should be starting at 10. He would gel well with Devoto and Wimbush outside him. If funds are tight that solution might enable Exeter to concentrate on signing a quality SH.

Dingwall was absolutely outstanding at 12 so not quite sure what you were watching.

Not sure about that. His stats looked good by the end of the game but he conceded ground when making tackles and the Saints backline looked desperately short on leadership until Smith came on. Dingwall was a solid 7 out of 10 for me.

[Banquo]

My own little side issue was comparing Ojomoh (who others seem to rate) with Devoto (who rarely gets a mention these days). Having also watched Dingwall and Kelly earlier, I saw no reason to change my view that the best 12 from both matches was playing at 13 for Bath. The second best was playing at 13 for Exeter.

Having said that, Slade should be starting at 10. He would gel well with Devoto and Wimbush outside him. If funds are tight that solution might enable Exeter to concentrate on signing a quality SH.

Dingwall was absolutely outstanding at 12 so not quite sure what you were watching.

Not sure about that. His stats looked good by the end of the game but he conceded ground when making tackles and the Saints backline looked desperately short on leadership until Smith came on. Dingwall was a solid 7 out of 10 for me.

we'll have to disagree then, although that means me agreeing with Stuart Barnes. He was pretty pivotal (ha ha) in the second half demolition.

[FKAS]

Dingwall was absolutely outstanding at 12 so not quite sure what you were watching.

Not sure about that. His stats looked good by the end of the game but he conceded ground when making tackles and the Saints backline looked desperately short on leadership until Smith came on. Dingwall was a solid 7 out of 10 for me.

we'll have to disagree then, although that means me agreeing with Stuart Barnes. He was pretty pivotal (ha ha) in the second half demolition.

He looked good when his team was on top and a man up. When they were under the cosh in the first half he wasn't so good. When the backline needed organisation he didn't stand up, when Tigers were getting over the gain line in the first half he didn't make dominant hits. He didn't do much wrong but there were times where he could have really stood out and he didn't.

I thought young Litchfield carried well for Saints. Positionally not the best but he definitely made impact ball in hand. Kelly had a good game at 13 for Tigers, but if a rarity this season but made a mess of Saints attack in the first half and had some nice touches in attack. Could do much to stop us getting overrun in the second half though he was subbed for fresh legs after about an hour.

[Banquo]

Not sure about that. His stats looked good by the end of the game but he conceded ground when making tackles and the Saints backline looked desperately short on leadership until Smith came on. Dingwall was a solid 7 out of 10 for me.

we'll have to disagree then, although that means me agreeing with Stuart Barnes. He was pretty pivotal (ha ha) in the second half demolition.

He didn't do much wrong but there were times where he could have really stood out and he didn't.

Could say that about a lot of players in most games anyhow, of the 12's and 13's on show in the games Dors refers to, he was pretty influential...

[Oakboy]

we'll have to disagree then, although that means me agreeing with Stuart Barnes. He was pretty pivotal (ha ha) in the second half demolition.

He didn't do much wrong but there were times where he could have really stood out and he didn't.

Could say that about a lot of players in most games anyhow, of the 12's and 13's on show in the games Dors refers to, he was pretty influential...

I see Dingwall as an excellent club player with good hands and a fine all-round game at that level. IMO, though, he lacks a yard of pace for international rugby. That might be accepted in these days of physicality-worship if he had another two or three stones of edge. I suspect (guess) that he does not compare well in England training camps with others.

[FKAS]

we'll have to disagree then, although that means me agreeing with Stuart Barnes. He was pretty pivotal (ha ha) in the second half demolition.

He didn't do much wrong but there were times where he could have really stood out and he didn't.

Could say that about a lot of players in most games anyhow, of the 12's and 13's on show in the games Dors refers to, he was pretty influential...

He was certainly better than Kata.

Problem with Dingwall is that he's not particularly physical but his in game intelligence and leadership makes up for it. First half I didn't see much if any of that.

Kelly showing a bit form made a nice change this season, I wonder if roles were reversed and he'd been in a team than had a man advantage for the second period in an attack purring nicely whether his stats would have look as good. As it was their stats were pretty similar bar metres made where Dingwall unsurprisingly made a lot more. Kelly didn't miss a tackle which is impressive Vs that Saints attack.

[Banquo]

He didn't do much wrong but there were times where he could have really stood out and he didn't.

Could say that about a lot of players in most games anyhow, of the 12's and 13's on show in the games Dors refers to, he was pretty influential...

I see Dingwall as an excellent club player with good hands and a fine all-round game at that level. IMO, though, he lacks a yard of pace for international rugby. That might be accepted in these days of physicality-worship if he had another two or three stones of edge. I suspect (guess) that he does not compare well in England training camps with others.

He's third choice (now Manu gone)and close to usurping Slade from what I hear (with Lawrence playing in his best position at 13) . I do agree on yard of pace/size tbh, but the same was said about Conrad Smith . I'm quite surprised you have now decided that skill is optional in centres

[Banquo]

He didn't do much wrong but there were times where he could have really stood out and he didn't.

Could say that about a lot of players in most games anyhow, of the 12's and 13's on show in the games Dors refers to, he was pretty influential...

He was certainly better than Kata.

Problem with Dingwall is that he's not particularly physical but his in game intelligence and leadership makes up for it. First half I didn't see much if any of that.

I think its fair to say that he's not quite big enough to impose physically in defence (but reads attacks well, which is why he's often at 13 in D) and agree with the rest. First half as a whole, Saints weren't as impressive as when they brought the first team on. Good old rope a dope . Their revised backline had better shape in all seriousness.

[Oakboy]

I'm quite surprised you have now decided that skill is optional in centres

Hence, my decade+ support for Slade! It's the fashion for bulk, that I was referring to. IMO, Lawrence gives the right balance of skill/penetration at 12.

Out of interest, would you pick Ford/Dingwall at 10/12? That pairing would provide handling and all-round rugby skill but it would be under-powered perhaps?

[FKAS]

Could say that about a lot of players in most games anyhow, of the 12's and 13's on show in the games Dors refers to, he was pretty influential...

He was certainly better than Kata.

Problem with Dingwall is that he's not particularly physical but his in game intelligence and leadership makes up for it. First half I didn't see much if any of that.

I think its fair to say that he's not quite big enough to impose physically in defence (but reads attacks well, which is why he's often at 13 in D) and agree with the rest. First half as a whole, Saints weren't as impressive as when they brought the first team on. Good old rope a dope . Their revised backline had better shape in all seriousness.

I thought it was testament to Fin Smith to be honest. The level of game management he brought into the game as a 21 year old was very impressive. Saints attack was very narrow in the first half and whilst good runners and slick hands got them some metres Tigers were able to beat them back and put some big hits on Mitchell (he's tough). Second half with Fin in at 10 there was so much more width to attack, Tigers couldn't narrow up and just smash. Add into that the poor discipline and being down to 14 and it gave Saints momentum, by the end Tigers were out on their feet. I suspect Saints were hoping not to need Fin Smith and wanted to wrap him in cotton wool ahead of some big games.

[Banquo]

He was certainly better than Kata.

Problem with Dingwall is that he's not particularly physical but his in game intelligence and leadership makes up for it. First half I didn't see much if any of that.

I think its fair to say that he's not quite big enough to impose physically in defence (but reads attacks well, which is why he's often at 13 in D) and agree with the rest. First half as a whole, Saints weren't as impressive as when they brought the first team on. Good old rope a dope . Their revised backline had better shape in all seriousness.

I thought it was testament to Fin Smith to be honest. The level of game management he brought into the game as a 21 year old was very impressive. Saints attack was very narrow in the first half and whilst good runners and slick hands got them some metres Tigers were able to beat them back and put some big hits on Mitchell (he's tough). Second half with Fin in at 10 there was so much more width to attack, Tigers couldn't narrow up and just smash. Add into that the poor discipline and being down to 14 and it gave Saints momentum, by the end Tigers were out on their feet. I suspect Saints were hoping not to need Fin Smith and wanted to wrap him in cotton wool ahead of some big games.

Yes, having a full time flyhalf at 10 was magically different!

[Banquo]

I'm quite surprised you have now decided that skill is optional in centres

Hence, my decade+ support for Slade! It's the fashion for bulk, that I was referring to. IMO, Lawrence gives the right balance of skill/penetration at 12.

Out of interest, would you pick Ford/Dingwall at 10/12? That pairing would provide handling and all-round rugby skill but it would be under-powered perhaps?

I don’t think Lawrence is at all happy at 12 tbh. I’d be happy with Ford Dingwall and Lawrence, as can mix up in attack and defence, Dingwall being happy in either position in midfield.

[FKAS]

I'm quite surprised you have now decided that skill is optional in centres

Hence, my decade+ support for Slade! It's the fashion for bulk, that I was referring to. IMO, Lawrence gives the right balance of skill/penetration at 12.

Out of interest, would you pick Ford/Dingwall at 10/12? That pairing would provide handling and all-round rugby skill but it would be under-powered perhaps?

I don’t think Lawrence is at all happy at 12 tbh. I’d be happy with Ford Dingwall and Lawrence, as can mix up in attack and defence, Dingwall being happy in either position in midfield.

Not sure I'd back either to lead the defence from the 13 channel in the Felix Jones system though.

[Banquo]

Hence, my decade+ support for Slade! It's the fashion for bulk, that I was referring to. IMO, Lawrence gives the right balance of skill/penetration at 12.

Out of interest, would you pick Ford/Dingwall at 10/12? That pairing would provide handling and all-round rugby skill but it would be under-powered perhaps?

I don’t think Lawrence is at all happy at 12 tbh. I’d be happy with Ford Dingwall and Lawrence, as can mix up in attack and defence, Dingwall being happy in either position in midfield.

Not sure I'd back either to lead the defence from the 13 channel in the Felix Jones system though.

Dingwall more than capable- reads the game really well, he’d be as good as Slade imo. It’s where he defends a lot at Saints, albeit a different system (and much more effective than last season)

[FKAS]

I don’t think Lawrence is at all happy at 12 tbh. I’d be happy with Ford Dingwall and Lawrence, as can mix up in attack and defence, Dingwall being happy in either position in midfield.

Not sure I'd back either to lead the defence from the 13 channel in the Felix Jones system though.

Dingwall more than capable- reads the game really well, he’d be as good as Slade imo. It’s where he defends a lot at Saints, albeit a different system (and much more effective than last season)

He reads the game brilliantly but I'd not back him to fly out the line and make the hit.

[Banquo]

Not sure I'd back either to lead the defence from the 13 channel in the Felix Jones system though.

Dingwall more than capable- reads the game really well, he’d be as good as Slade imo. It’s where he defends a lot at Saints, albeit a different system (and much more effective than last season)

He reads the game brilliantly but I'd not back him to fly out the line and make the hit.

Why?

[FKAS]

Dingwall more than capable- reads the game really well, he’d be as good as Slade imo. It’s where he defends a lot at Saints, albeit a different system (and much more effective than last season)

He reads the game brilliantly but I'd not back him to fly out the line and make the hit.

Why?

Because it's not how he favours tackling. Rarely do you see him coming aggressively off the line and making a dominant hit which is what is going to be required in the Jones defence. Slade isn't ideal because he's not the biggest tackler but he tends to make them stick. Dingwall appears happier defending at 12, even when wearing 13, and making chop style tackles on the gain line.

I'm maybe being clouded because of that red card he picked up last season racing out the line against La Rochelle.

[Banquo]

He reads the game brilliantly but I'd not back him to fly out the line and make the hit.

Why?

Because it's not how he favours tackling. Rarely do you see him coming aggressively off the line and making a dominant hit which is what is going to be required in the Jones defence. Slade isn't ideal because he's not the biggest tackler but he tends to make them stick. Dingwall appears happier defending at 12, even when wearing 13, and making chop style tackles on the gain line.

I'm maybe being clouded because of that red card he picked up last season racing out the line against La Rochelle.

I don’t agree with most of that tbh.

[Mellsblue]

Does anyone know how old Jacques Vermeulen is and when he’d qualify to play for England etc etc