What next for 24/25?

[Oakboy]

I think Fisilau has a high ceiling. Obviously, that is judgement/guesswork - call it what you like. You say 'all-rounder' but I say a rounded skill-set. He has good hands, pace and he punches well above his weight in carrying. He rarely gets turned over and he offloads well. IMO, there is more to come. He is not limited by a lack of a rugby brain and he seems to have the right mind-set to learn - sort of humble not arrogant.

It's a subjective view but I just think he will be a natural 'up a level'. He needs to get a chance. I'd have the 8 ranking as Earl, Willis, Fisilau, Barbeary.

[Which Tyler]

Here’s the depth chart/pecking order as I’d like to see it:

Dammit, I was planning on doing this when the insomnia kicks in this week!

[Puja]

The Top14 is unquestionably (in my opinion) of a higher standard than the Premiership, so if a player like Mercer excelled in this tough competition then one would rightly assume that he has what it takes to shine in the Premiership. Did Eddie dangle a juicy carrot in front of Mercer’s nose? We may never know. Was going to Gloucester the right choice? Would he have fared better elsewhere. Again, we don’t know. I watched some of his games with Montpellier and he was exceptionally good but I haven’t seen him play in any games for Gloucester. Is he still in Stevie Blunder’s plans? Sadly, it would appear not and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he went back to the Top14. A shame as I believe that he could have been England’s regular 8.

The Top 14 is of a higher standard than the Prem, but that's also why players can look better than they are there - an expensively assembled side can cover for inadequacies in a player's game, in order to get his USPs. It's the whole, "Can he do it on a rainy evening at Stoke?" quip, but actually serious.

Mercer also suffers from a ridiculous amount of competition - Earl is the man in possession and kne of our best players, and Dombrandt and Fisilau both had better seasons than Mercer. It's not that he's being ignored or overlooked - right now, he's not good enough.

Puja

[fivepointer]

I think Fisilau has a high ceiling. Obviously, that is judgement/guesswork - call it what you like. You say 'all-rounder' but I say a rounded skill-set. He has good hands, pace and he punches well above his weight in carrying. He rarely gets turned over and he offloads well. IMO, there is more to come. He is not limited by a lack of a rugby brain and he seems to have the right mind-set to learn - sort of humble not arrogant.

It's a subjective view but I just think he will be a natural 'up a level'. He needs to get a chance. I'd have the 8 ranking as Earl, Willis, Fisilau, Barbeary.

Fisilau makes a lot of positive interventions in a game. A lot. Rarely makes an error and has the smarts to do the right thing at the right time. Next season will see how much he's developed but his all round play is of a very consistent and high level.

[Scrumhead]

For avoidance of doubt, I’m not questioning whether Fisilau is good or worth investing in. I wanted @Oakboy to qualify what he rates so highly about him.

Being a good all-rounder wasn’t intended to be a criticism. I just don’t see the outstanding quality that is going to push him ahead of his competition. Maybe it is the ‘game sense’. I’m just yet to see that to the extent others seem to have.

[Oakboy]

I don't think Fisilau is today's man - yet. But, I think he is more worthy of time investment than others for what he might be 'tomorrow'. He is a regular starter at 8 for Exeter and I'd rate him as good there as CCS is at 6. He might have to wait for an injury created opportunity and he would vie with Tom Willis for first go. I only suggest he should definitely be ahead of Dombrandt and Mercer. I also think he has a better total skill-set than Barbeary. So, 3rd in the ranking for me.

[Scrumhead]

Just seen Slade has had shoulder surgery. I imagine that puts him out of the AIs.

Dingwall is probably favourite to come in but it’ll be interesting to see how we re-shuffle - does Lawrence move to 13 for example?

[FKAS]

Just seen Slade has had shoulder surgery. I imagine that puts him out of the AIs.

Dingwall is probably favourite to come in but it’ll be interesting to see how we re-shuffle - does Lawrence move to 13 for example?

Not sure Dingwall has the physicality to play 12 at international level without us changing quite a bit of how our midfield operates. He could possibly fill the Slade role at 13. He's definitely got the rugby brain to read the game and lead the defence, might need a touch of work on his tackling coming out the line at pace but doable.

[Oakboy]

I'd leave Lawrence at 12 and move Freeman to 13.

Slade gets all sorts of criticism including a lack of pace. That has always seemed strange to me and I suspect that it is based on a misunderstanding of his running style. He has shown excellent pace off the mark to 'rush-up' within his role in the latest defence system. Whoever replaces him at 13 needs similar acceleration prowess and tackling impact. I suspect that Freeman could handle the physical demands of the role well - better than Lawrence or Dingwall. He may not have Dingwall's rugby intelligence but I'd give him first go, especially since there are so many good wing replacements for him.

[FKAS]

I'd like to see Freeman get more game time at 13 for Saints before shoving him into the 13 shirt for the AIs. Particularly as he's done such a good job on the wing for us, maybe not had the highlights reel moments he'd have liked but his kick chase and defensive positioning at the back have been excellent for us.

[Mikey Brown]

I've noticed Slade zooming around in defence a lot but I'm not sure about pace or tackling impact. The system seems largely effective though so he's clearly been doing something right. Still having games where his skillset completely abandons him is quite a big problem though. Without being fast, powerful or evasive enough I think our attack suffers a lot when he suddenly can't move the ball effectively.

I like Freeman as a 13 in theory too, but yeah needs to play there more consistently for Saints which seems unlikely if Odendaal is fit. Dingwall feels somewhat like an answer to a question that isn't being asked, but maybe him and Lawrence could do a job as a pairing.

[Puja]

I've noticed Slade zooming around in defence a lot but I'm not sure about pace or tackling impact. The system seems largely effective though so he's clearly been doing something right. Still having games where his skillset completely abandons him is quite a big problem though. Without being fast, powerful or evasive enough I think our attack suffers a lot when he suddenly can't move the ball effectively.

I like Freeman as a 13 in theory too, but yeah needs to play there more consistently for Saints which seems unlikely if Odendaal is fit. Dingwall feels somewhat like an answer to a question that isn't being asked, but maybe him and Lawrence could do a job as a pairing.

Odendaal is missing the start of the season with recovering from knee surgery, IIRC, so it's an opportunity for Freeman to put down a marker.

Puja

[FKAS]

I've noticed Slade zooming around in defence a lot but I'm not sure about pace or tackling impact. The system seems largely effective though so he's clearly been doing something right. Still having games where his skillset completely abandons him is quite a big problem though. Without being fast, powerful or evasive enough I think our attack suffers a lot when he suddenly can't move the ball effectively.

I like Freeman as a 13 in theory too, but yeah needs to play there more consistently for Saints which seems unlikely if Odendaal is fit. Dingwall feels somewhat like an answer to a question that isn't being asked, but maybe him and Lawrence could do a job as a pairing.

Odendaal is missing the start of the season with recovering from knee surgery, IIRC, so it's an opportunity for Freeman to put down a marker.

Puja

Unless Saints revert to Dingwall/Hutchinson or give youngster Litchfield a go at 13. Given Saints ample back three resources you'd hope it would mean a chance for Freeman to step into midfield though.

Slade feels like a solid short term option for the England midfield. He can do a bit of everything but maybe lacks the top edge to become a longer term answer. Not sure we have an obvious answer currently. Hopefully once the season starts we see one or more of the many young centre prospects we have really put their hand up and demand consideration.

[Oakboy]

I doubt that anybody, SB included, sees Slade as a likely occupier of the 13 shirt at the next RWC. If fit (and with Marchant in France), his club form puts him ahead of his rivals. As ever, someone has to play better than him to push him out and nobody is doing so - yet. I've always thought that Freeman was his most likely successor. His spells in the 13 shirt for Saints have coincided with some of their best performances. I don't think Dingwall is quite up to international stuff but it could still be that he succeeds. His best chance, IMO, is at 12 with club colleagues at 9, 10 and 13. It could still happen if Fin can get past Marcus (or gets an injury-related run). Meanwhile, Mitchell, Marcus, Lawrence and Freeman could click.

[Scrumhead]

Slade hasn’t fired in attack for a good while but the role he plays in the defensive system is under appreciated IMO.

If Freeman is playing 13 for Saints, I’d be happy to take a look, but I would assume that Dingwall has had a good introduction to both the 12 and 13 role in the system which would put him in the box seat. The question for me is which way round he and Lawrence are deployed. I can see a case for both options but I’d probably lean towards leaving Lawrence at 12 and have Dingwall come in to the Slade role at 13.

Maybe it opens up an opportunity for Dan Kelly given he has switched between 12 and 13 in recent times?

[Banquo]

Slade hasn’t fired in attack for a good while but the role he plays in the defensive system is under appreciated IMO.

It’s the prime reason he is in the team, and it’s generally what is commented on, so not sure he’s under appreciated in D tbh, at least by those that matter.

I’d also say that Lawrence looks far happier at 13 generally.

[Scrumhead]

Yes, more of a general statement re. Slade being under appreciated rather than it being anyone on this board.

Re. Lawrence, I agree he’s better at 13 in general, but given that it’s the defensive leader role in England’s system, I’m not totally sure he’s up to it?

[FKAS]

Maybe it opens up an opportunity for Dan Kelly given he has switched between 12 and 13 in recent times?

Not if you saw how he played at 13.

He's a much better 12, particularly in defence. With Perese arriving at Tigers he's more likely to be in the 12 shirt this season. Scott and Porter being injured for large parts of last season limited McKellar's midfield options.

[Banquo]

Yes, more of a general statement re. Slade being under appreciated rather than it being anyone on this board.

Re. Lawrence, I agree he’s better at 13 in general, but given that it’s the defensive leader role in England’s system, I’m not totally sure he’s up to it?

I didn’t mean the board tbh, I think his defence is the prime reason Borthers et al pick him. Ie those that matter rate his defence very highly.

You are probably right on Lawrences D- so that makes him not great in either position….. so…

[Timbo]

Post Scotland, where he was quite poor after returning from injury, Lawrence has been solid-good in each of his last 5 tests. Bit rusty against Japan. Definitely some work-ons, but he plays like an effective modern day hard running/3rd flanker type 12. Certainly listening to the Kiwi pundits & analysis they were impressed with him.

[Scrumhead]

Lawrence is decent. He’s not helped by having to play a different role for England to the one he plays with Bath.

He is better at 13. However, that’s mostly from an attacking POV and also playing in an entirely different set up. Given how key the 13 role is in England’s defensive system, I think moving him would be setting him up to fail. He’s less exposed at 12 so that’s where I’d prefer to leave him. Even more so if he’s playing with an inexperienced partner in midfield.

[Oakboy]

Lawrence is decent. He’s not helped by having to play a different role for England to the one he plays with Bath.

He is better at 13. However, that’s mostly from an attacking POV and also playing in an entirely different set up. Given how key the 13 role is in England’s defensive system, I think moving him would be setting him up to fail. He’s less exposed at 12 so that’s where I’d prefer to leave him. Even more so if he’s playing with an inexperienced partner in midfield.

Agreed. Lawrence is an example of what I was spouting about on the other thread. He's good - decent to use your word. But, he's not outstanding (yet?). If a better prospect comes on the scene it would be tough for him in some ways but there is no doubt that two top standard centres would transform the team. For now, SB must see him as a work in progress. There's more to come but he could well be overtaken.

[Banquo]

Post Scotland, where he was quite poor after returning from injury, Lawrence has been solid-good in each of his last 5 tests. Bit rusty against Japan. Definitely some work-ons, but he plays like an effective modern day hard running/3rd flanker type 12. Certainly listening to the Kiwi pundits & analysis they were impressed with him.

I’m surprised. His skill levels aren’t what a kiwi would accept generally. That role would seem the natural one for him at 12, and one that would suit this England ( and frankly many teams) but he looks pretty uncomfortable there to me.

[Banquo]

Lawrence is decent. He’s not helped by having to play a different role for England to the one he plays with Bath.

He is better at 13. However, that’s mostly from an attacking POV and also playing in an entirely different set up. Given how key the 13 role is in England’s defensive system, I think moving him would be setting him up to fail. He’s less exposed at 12 so that’s where I’d prefer to leave him. Even more so if he’s playing with an inexperienced partner in midfield.

Agreed. Lawrence is an example of what I was spouting about on the other thread. He's good - decent to use your word. But, he's not outstanding (yet?). If a better prospect comes on the scene it would be tough for him in some ways but there is no doubt that two top standard centres would transform the team. For now, SB must see him as a work in progress. There's more to come but he could well be overtaken.

Kin ell, been crying out for a top centre pairing for decades. Even a couple of complimentary players with rounded skill sets would be nice.

[Puja]

Post Scotland, where he was quite poor after returning from injury, Lawrence has been solid-good in each of his last 5 tests. Bit rusty against Japan. Definitely some work-ons, but he plays like an effective modern day hard running/3rd flanker type 12. Certainly listening to the Kiwi pundits & analysis they were impressed with him.

I’m surprised. His skill levels aren’t what a kiwi would accept generally. That role would seem the natural one for him at 12, and one that would suit this England ( and frankly many teams) but he looks pretty uncomfortable there to me.

He's not a 12. He's got the frame to do a crash ball into traffic, but he hasn't got the ball retention skills or tight carrying style to make it work consistently. The best use we've got out of him there has been from pretending he's going on the crash and passing the ball behind him, aided by NZ failing to do their homework and believing every time that he was going to get the ball because he looked big and scary.

To my mind, he would actually be a better winger than he is a 12 - his best skills are based around using his pace to attack gaps and power through arm tackles.

Puja

[Edited for clarity]