RugbyRebels

Not too much to get excited about there but pleased for Itoje. Just hope he sees some meaningful time on the pitch rather than the last 5-10 minutes when/if we're ahead by a score or two.

Would be nice to see Itoje, Clifford and Vunipola at 6,7 and 8 for a bit too but I can't see that happening. Would've been even better to see Itoje, Kvesic and Vunipola but perhaps it'll happen one day.

The backrow looks like it will struggle as a unit although I'm sure all three will put a shift in, make plenty of tackles, Vunipola will make some metres and Robshaw and Haskell may win a turnover.

Farrell at 12 is continuing to annoy me. It's almost as if his selection in the team was a pre-requisite for Jones to get the job. Why not try Devoto or Hill?

Very strange selection, especially the bench. I thought EJ wanted to be brave. He's looking very conservative to me.

If Daly had been picked instead of Goode, and Kvesic instead of one of the back-rowers - I'd probably be applauding this selection… As it is, our backs cover is terrible and our lack of open-side hasn't changed.

If Eddie can make it that our forwards can start dominating games, I'll be quite happy…

Just hope they've been working on kicking from hand after last week

Hooky wrote:Very strange selection, especially the bench. I thought EJ wanted to be brave. He's looking very conservative to me.

Don't think he's ever said he'd be brave tbh; he's said he wants to win/develop a winning style. He's taking stock, and aiming to win whilst doing so (probably an obvious thing, but there you are).

But the way he's doing it is imo missing some tricks and creating some potentially difficult scenarios

Which Tyler wrote:Ahhh, that brings back memories.
Good to see you again Jammy.
There is not, and never has been an anti-Glaws conspiracy.
Except at Bath, but that's a battle-plan, not a conspiracy.

Yeah, how's that worked out for you this year?

Puja

Banquo wrote:

Hooky wrote:Very strange selection, especially the bench. I thought EJ wanted to be brave. He's looking very conservative to me.

Don't think he's ever said he'd be brave tbh; he's said he wants to win/develop a winning style. He's taking stock, and aiming to win whilst doing so (probably an obvious thing, but there you are).

But the way he's doing it is imo missing some tricks and creating some potentially difficult scenarios

I think "brave" is my interpretation of what I expected from him - trying some different players, opting for creativity and perhaps a 7 at 7 and a 12 at 12. This all looks very similar to what England coaches have done since Woodward.

Hooky wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Hooky wrote:Very strange selection, especially the bench. I thought EJ wanted to be brave. He's looking very conservative to me.

Don't think he's ever said he'd be brave tbh; he's said he wants to win/develop a winning style. He's taking stock, and aiming to win whilst doing so (probably an obvious thing, but there you are).

But the way he's doing it is imo missing some tricks and creating some potentially difficult scenarios

I think "brave" is my interpretation of what I expected from him - trying some different players, opting for creativity and perhaps a 7 at 7 and a 12 at 12. This all looks very similar to what England coaches have done since Woodward.

Yeah its interesting what folks expectations were of Jones, mostly based on the perception of how Japan played. He's an analyst and pragmatist and wants to win; what will be different imo will be that he will be looking to improve individuals (fitness, skills etc etc) more precisely, based on what he sees as the 'gap'. I think he wants to optimise all that, and I don't think has seen what he wants to see in 'new' candidates for 7 or 12 (yet)...and wants to settle the front five options first before 'gambling' on 7 and having the current style of play. On the 12, I think he wants Slade and Tuilagi around to experiment with, and sounds like he doesn't quite want Devoto yet. All speculation, as he is laying false trails!

It's a slightly disappointing selection. For me the main bugbears are:

- The backrow - Haskell and Robshaw does not work so pick one (at most) and dump the other.
- Lawes - I don't think he is fully fit and I haven't seen him play well for a long while - he has a lot of potential but is 26 now so in my view can't be selected on that any more - he needs to be on form and proving himself.
- Goode - I don't understand the love for Goode nor see the value of him on the bench - it leaves us without sufficient cover if there was an injury in the first minute. He's a good club level full back but is barely adequate there at international level and does not cover any other position effectively - this has been established over numerous opportunities so why do we need to establish it again? Daly needs a chance asap.

I don't understand the widespread dislike for Youngs / Care - for me their problems stem from a lack of carriers in the pack (improved to some extent this week), meaning the runners are often ponderous, and the awful breakdown skills of the back row, meaning the ball is often slow. There aren't many 9s out there who would do much better with the quality of ball provided.

On Kvesic - I don't think EJ rates him that highly and I can see why. It may be harsh of me as admittedly he is good at club level but I just don't see him making an impact at international level. Something that strikes me from when EJ was first appointed is that he said he feels he can help young players develop the breakdown skills - I feel this is what he is trying to do with Clifford, who is a very high quality player in my opinion.

Hmmmm......er......interesting selection.

Backrow yes agreed with all that's been said, same with backline and definitely on the 6:2 split. It's crying out for Daly. Let's hope there's not an outside backs injury and certainly not two!!!! Or at 12 for that matter and that's saying something!!!

I've a feeling Itoje will come on at 6 and Clifford at 8. Hopefully 7 alongside Vunipola and Itoje. Robshaw and Haskell is superbly meh! Here's hoping he's deciding which one to jettison.

Good to see Mako start and Brookes not be rushed back. Hopefully Hill will get on and have a decent taste of test rugby.

APR wrote:I see nothing's changed on here!
Listen to what jones has been saying, folks. His overall philosophy that England shouldn't try to be NZ/Oz/SA-lite, but England. Establish a dominant, powerful pack, then build from that. Clearly that's exactly what he's concentrating on, particularly as what are generally considered potential key back players (Tuilagi, Slade, Simpson, Foden, yes and Ashton too, plus the Daly/Wades etc) are currently unfit or unavailable, a bit too raw yet or off-form. So he's concentrating on the pack, looking at the options in terms of the future, whilst keeping a relatively settled back line that'll do the job for the time being. Make sure that the pack can deliver plenty of go-forward ball from the tight and loose first.

That makes sense*, and fits in with the gen that I got from a friend that Eddie isn't looking to do anything with the backs until he knows if Tuilagi can be his 12. However, if he's focussing just on the forwards, I don't understand why he wouldn't a) use Clifford from the start to get his "faster pack", b) have Beaumont on the bench to see how he goes and c) have Itoje over Lawes.

Puja

*The unquoted bit of your post is still bananacakes though, for the usual reasons. Good to have you back Andy.

Puja wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Ahhh, that brings back memories.
Good to see you again Jammy.
There is not, and never has been an anti-Glaws conspiracy.
Except at Bath, but that's a battle-plan, not a conspiracy.

Yeah, how's that worked out for you this year?

Puja

Meaney - I'm telling teacher on you.
Who's teacher around these parts?


Oh, ok then <sulks>

Blimey.

Not sure why he can't sort the backs whilst also sorting the forwards.

Not sure what Haskell or Robshaw will prove in another 80mins that he doesn't already know.

Goode is Baade.

I need a beer.

SixAndAHalf wrote:
On Kvesic - I don't think EJ rates him that highly and I can see why. It may be harsh of me as admittedly he is good at club level but I just don't see him making an impact at international level. Something that strikes me from when EJ was first appointed is that he said he feels he can help young players develop the breakdown skills - I feel this is what he is trying to do with Clifford, who is a very high quality player in my opinion.

It'd be nice if he gave Kvesic a shot, though. He seems to be giving plenty of experienced players time to prove they're up to it. Players who we know what they are capable of. Why not extend the same courtesy to players who haven't had a chance to prove the are, at best, decent internationals?
He sees Clifford as an 8 long term so I can't see the point of him having a runout at 7, other than as a short term fix to get some pace into the backrow.

I told you he was a nutter, but nobody believes me. You will have a different opinion by the end of the 6N's, although the opposition is sufficiently dire that he could even win the thing.

Mellsblue wrote:Blimey.

Not sure why he can't sort the backs whilst also sorting the forwards.

Not sure what Haskell or Robshaw will prove in another 80mins that he doesn't already know.

Goode is Baade.

I need a beer.

I agree, I see what he's trying to do but don't agree with the execution. And its only a couple of things that would make it feel a lot better.

Jones all talk no trousers.

Should never have been appointed.

Mellsblue wrote:

SixAndAHalf wrote:
On Kvesic - I don't think EJ rates him that highly and I can see why. It may be harsh of me as admittedly he is good at club level but I just don't see him making an impact at international level. Something that strikes me from when EJ was first appointed is that he said he feels he can help young players develop the breakdown skills - I feel this is what he is trying to do with Clifford, who is a very high quality player in my opinion.

It'd be nice if he gave Kvesic a shot, though. He seems to be giving plenty of experienced players time to prove they're up to it. Players who we know what they are capable of. Why not extend the same courtesy to players who haven't had a chance to prove the are, at best, decent internationals?
He sees Clifford as an 8 long term so I can't see the point of him having a runout at 7, other than as a short term fix to get some pace into the backrow.

I have heard a few people say that but haven't seen the quote myself (not questioning it's true but just hadn't seen it!) My comments above were on the assumption that EJ sees him as a 7. If not, then go with the next in line who at the moment appears to be Kvesic (I prefer Fraser personally and think Underhill could overtake both). I agree there is no point in proceeding with two from Hask/Robshaw/Wood.

SixAndAHalf wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

SixAndAHalf wrote:
On Kvesic - I don't think EJ rates him that highly and I can see why. It may be harsh of me as admittedly he is good at club level but I just don't see him making an impact at international level. Something that strikes me from when EJ was first appointed is that he said he feels he can help young players develop the breakdown skills - I feel this is what he is trying to do with Clifford, who is a very high quality player in my opinion.

It'd be nice if he gave Kvesic a shot, though. He seems to be giving plenty of experienced players time to prove they're up to it. Players who we know what they are capable of. Why not extend the same courtesy to players who haven't had a chance to prove the are, at best, decent internationals?
He sees Clifford as an 8 long term so I can't see the point of him having a runout at 7, other than as a short term fix to get some pace into the backrow.

I have heard a few people say that but haven't seen the quote myself (not questioning it's true but just hadn't seen it!) My comments above were on the assumption that EJ sees him as a 7. If not, then go with the next in line who at the moment appears to be Kvesic (I prefer Fraser personally and think Underhill could overtake both). I agree there is no point in proceeding with two from Hask/Robshaw/Wood.

It was Gustard who said it I believe. I'll try and find it

I have to say Convex raises a very possible and ghastly outcome. The standard of the 6N does not look great this year and the fixtures are stacked our way. A Grand Slam could happen, even with a team like this, even without them being any good; would Jones decide he's got his men then?

I'm more apathetic than puzzled/dismayed at this stage. I can't work out what he's up to, but until there's proof of the possibility of exciting successful rugby, I'm not interested.

Again, we have to wait and see. EJ has no choice but to take on NH competition and his first goal has to be to beat them all. Will any of us be whingeing so much about the back-row if Clifford and Itoje come on after 50 min and turn it on? It was always going to be the selection for the 3rd match that was the most significant.

Peat wrote:I have to say Convex raises a very possible and ghastly outcome. The standard of the 6N does not look great this year and the fixtures are stacked our way. A Grand Slam could happen, even with a team like this, even without them being any good; would Jones decide he's got his men then

I think that's the major advantage of having an overseas coach, especially one as arrogant as Jones. An English coach would look at a Grand Slam and pat themselves on the back for a job well done. Jones is here as a vanity project, for his own self-aggrandisement, and to do that, he needs to beat Australia and New Zealand. As such, I'm not sure he cares about the 6N, because it won't bring him the glory he wants.

Puja

Its far too early to pass judgment. The selection doesn't make much sense to me but lets see how things pan out.

And as far as winning a GS is concerned, I'd be very pleased thanks very much irrespective of how poor the standard is! That at least is a major advance on what we've had over the last dozen seasons.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

SixAndAHalf wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:
It'd be nice if he gave Kvesic a shot, though. He seems to be giving plenty of experienced players time to prove they're up to it. Players who we know what they are capable of. Why not extend the same courtesy to players who haven't had a chance to prove the are, at best, decent internationals?
He sees Clifford as an 8 long term so I can't see the point of him having a runout at 7, other than as a short term fix to get some pace into the backrow.

I have heard a few people say that but haven't seen the quote myself (not questioning it's true but just hadn't seen it!) My comments above were on the assumption that EJ sees him as a 7. If not, then go with the next in line who at the moment appears to be Kvesic (I prefer Fraser personally and think Underhill could overtake both). I agree there is no point in proceeding with two from Hask/Robshaw/Wood.

It was Gustard who said it I believe. I'll try and find it

'Slowing down opposition ball is already one of Jones’s more urgent priorities: “There are a couple of blokes in the squad who we think can do it on a short-term basis. Haskell might be one of them. Clifford’s best position is definitely going to be No8 but he might have to start off as a seven"'

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/j ... ert-kitson

Lawes in for a full game perplexes me greatly, especially if Itoje only gets a few mins at the end. 6/2 bench also perplexes me greatly. Goode to cover at all perplexes me greatly. No Devoto at all is just plain bonkers.

I am shocked at the team selections so far considering the EPS squad. And is it really beyond a proven experienced international coach to concentrate on more than one area of a team at a time? Uuuurgh.