Gloucester Vs Sale

[FKAS]

I did specifically say not the first game for Ford, he wasn't fit Vs NZ and that was obvious. Having Randall being capable of throwing him a pass not over his left shoulder so he has to rush the final drop goal would have also helped but he shouldn't have been in that squad.

Against Australia we were brilliant for the first 15-20 mins and then played stupid headless chicken rugby for the next 40 mins until Ford came on. We then managed to stuff it up in an entirely different way but Ford at 10 and Smith at 15 looked more cohesive as a unit as Furbank had largely been anonymous. Similar against South Africa though in a game we were always going to struggle with.

Fin Smith added quite a lot in his brief cameo Vs Japan, bringing width to the attack. We need to see whether he can replicate Vs better opposition.

I agree the start of the 6N is brutal. I don't think necessarily picking Ford is a backward step as he's head and shoulder above the others in terms of game management and that's an area we need to improve. Mitchell returning will also help that. My concern over Ford is that he's clearly playing with an injury and has been doing most of the season and Sale seem keen to manage that out for as long as possible. A fit Ford probably walks into the side currently, the difference to Sale being very good with him in to being mediocre without him speaks volumes. Issue is he isn't fit.

I'm 50/50 on whether Marcus goes with the Lions. It's very much in his hands. Next summer has to be the time to give Fin Smith the 10 shirt and see what he can do either way. Need to build up the experience we have in the 10 shirt.

[Mellsblue]

I'm yet to see any defensive frailties by Smith at 15. Seems to be good at positioning in the backfield and he's certainly better than Steward is at one-on-ones. What's alleged to be the problem?

Puja

The change in law interpretation that stops the blockers on a kick chase has largely negated taking the high ball as a strength. Steward is easily the best in the Prem and he's finding it tough currently because the chaser can just jump there and look to spoil one handed. The defender has to attempt the catch so it becomes a crap shoot most the time.

Marcus created tries through some individual brilliance but also failed miserably to give our attack any width outside of the crossfield kick. Individually excellent but as the general of our attack very poor. We looked more cohesive with Ford (outside the first game where he blatantly wasn't fit) and Fin.

I'm not entirely convinced that Smith is bossing the Quins attack particularly well, they look far more dangerous on the counter attack or from first phase than they do going through multiple phases. Fin and Ford give the impression that they are using the phases to probe and move the defence around, Smith doesn't seem to have that patience and just seems to be looking for the next chance to go all or nothing as soon as possible.

I think having him at 15 gives us more in attack. I doubt Marcus will be happy about it but his form isn't exactly making a case for him being the 10 shirt without question.

Really 50:50 on this post. On the bolded section - sorry but, what? I’ll preface this by saying that I do regard both Ford and Fin as better game managers than Marcus, but to suggest we looked ‘more cohesive’ in the final quarter vs. NZ or Australia is pretty wild revisionism. Sure, Fin looked good against a poor and well beaten Japan side, but I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison. Ford had two shockers. As you say, he clearly wasn’t fit, but come on now … it might fit the narrative that Ford is a better game manager, but those two games are particularly poor examples to cite.

Personally, I thought we looked most cohesive in the first 20 against NZ. We were doing well playing flat to the line (with Marcus at the heart of this) to the extent that they gave up a yellow trying to defend our attack. Then it felt like we abandoned it. NZ definitely adapted but I don’t know why we stopped playing. Something similar happened vs. Australia. It feels like this is a pattern as we regularly go quiet in the middle two quarters of games regardless of who plays 10.

Re. The third paragraph, I think you’re absolutely correct. The Quins attack has really fallen off this season and Marcus isn’t ’bossing’ it the way he should. He is our key man but it doesn’t feel like he’s really taking charge. I’m not sure why that is, but I suspect he may not buy in to Wilson’s gameplan so is kind of doing his own thing with mixed results.

The bottom line for me is that we have a very difficult sequence of 6N games coming up. Picking Ford would be a backwards step, while picking Fin largely off the back of a 20min cameo vs. Japan (the only real glimpse of his club form seen at test level) to start in Dublin is a risk. I get some of the arguments against Marcus and I think it’s fair to say he didn’t get the attack firing in the AIs, but I think it was decent at the end of the last 6N and over the summer. but IMO, he’s proved he can do it against the best sides and I think we have to back him. If Marcus goes with the Lions (as he should), then I’d be looking at Fin to lay down a marker in Argentina.

@Puja feel free to move all this if you feel the need.

As pointed out to me when questioning Wigglesworth’s abilities as attack coach, Eng scored a shed load of points given our attack allegedly wasn’t functioning correctly. That we’re now looking to change the fulcrum of that attack doesn’t seem overly logical to me, albeit I can see arguments for the change. I can’t agree with the argument that he’s not getting the best out of the centres given I’ve never actually seen either of centres look truly test standard (harsh on Lawrence given caps and being played out of position but he makes far too many individual errors, imo). I do agree that M Smith is flawed in a number of areas but so are the alternative options. Stubbornly Backshisplayers and the Wiggler need to pick their poison - pick the mercurial talent and build around him or pick a more traditional 10 and play in a more traditional structure. I can see arguments for both but, obvs, think we need to give M Smith the chance. My one big worry, to go back to the start of this ramble, is whether the coaching setup is good enough and willing enough to do that.

Welcome back, btw.

[Scrumhead]

Thanks @Mellsblue

In fairness to Borthwick, he has backed Marcus post RWC. The speculation around who plays 10 has come more from the media/pundits than it has from the England camp, but with the 15 shirt being available, I can see why he could be tempted to play both Smiths.

[Oakboy]

I'd start Marcus at 10 in Dublin. I would not consider him at 15. The Ford/Farrell at 10/12 option was a historical error. Why repeat it? Pick our best 10 and our best 15. If it consigns good players to the bench, tough titty.

I think Marcus's difficulties at 10 in the AIs were down to the coaching.

[Mellsblue]

@ Scrumhead

My point re good enough and willing enough to commit to Smith goes beyond just picking him, ie can Wigglesworth get the most out of an unconventional 10 (I don’t think he can get the most out of any test 10 but that’s moot) and will Silted Backline fully back going all out in attack. Granted he moved to Furbank at 15 but I’d want him him to move off Slade and pick a runner to be truly convinced. If the, now universally assumed to be true, rumour that F Jones resigned as he was asked to rein in the more balls out part of his defence despite it coming v close to getting wins in NZ will the same be true in attack unless we start winning against the big boys. Who knows!

[Mellsblue]

I'd start Marcus at 10 in Dublin. I would not consider him at 15. The Ford/Farrell at 10/12 option was a historical error. Why repeat it? Pick our best 10 and our best 15. If it consigns good players to the bench, tough titty.

I think Marcus's difficulties at 10 in the AIs were down to the coaching.

I think coaching is an issue but I’d guess it’s also a familiarity thing. Lawrence plays with a mecurial 10 at Bath, albeit in a different fashion, but at 13 whilst Slade isn’t used to playing with a good flyhalf (!) and Smith certainly isn’t used to playing with a ball playing 13. Add in the chopping and changing at 15, whether M Smith to 15 or the back and forth between two very different players in Furbank and Steward and the revolving door at 9, and it’s not a very settled backline in what is essentially a new team as of Feb 2024.

That said, and to your point, get a world class backs coach in and I reckon a lot of the issues go away.

[Scrumhead]

I'd start Marcus at 10 in Dublin. I would not consider him at 15. The Ford/Farrell at 10/12 option was a historical error. Why repeat it? Pick our best 10 and our best 15. If it consigns good players to the bench, tough titty.

I think Marcus's difficulties at 10 in the AIs were down to the coaching.

Oh 100%. I’m totally on the same page. I wasn’t advocating that we pick Marcus at 15 - simply acknowledging that Borthwick might see it as an option.

[FKAS]

I'd start Marcus at 10 in Dublin. I would not consider him at 15. The Ford/Farrell at 10/12 option was a historical error. Why repeat it? Pick our best 10 and our best 15. If it consigns good players to the bench, tough titty.

I think Marcus's difficulties at 10 in the AIs were down to the coaching.

On form I don't think Marcus is our best 10. He's our most skillful and eye catching player but not our best 10. Much of the issues seen his play during the AIs have been there for Quins and some of his best moments have been counter attacking from deep like erm a fullback. Quins have also used the Evans to 10 and Smith to 15 tactic a few times this season so him slotting in at 15 isn't unusual either.

There's plenty of issues other than him for England, not least questions over why the attacking structure regressed at a worrying rate of knots in the Autumn.

[Mellsblue]

I'd start Marcus at 10 in Dublin. I would not consider him at 15. The Ford/Farrell at 10/12 option was a historical error. Why repeat it? Pick our best 10 and our best 15. If it consigns good players to the bench, tough titty.

I think Marcus's difficulties at 10 in the AIs were down to the coaching.

Quins have also used the Evans to 10 and Smith to 15 tactic a few times this season so him slotting in at 15 isn't unusual either.

They’ve done it once from the start and, going by the replacements, it was in extremis. Playing 10/15/20 mins at 15 for your club is wholly different to playing 80mins there against France and Ireland.

[FKAS]

I'd start Marcus at 10 in Dublin. I would not consider him at 15. The Ford/Farrell at 10/12 option was a historical error. Why repeat it? Pick our best 10 and our best 15. If it consigns good players to the bench, tough titty.

I think Marcus's difficulties at 10 in the AIs were down to the coaching.

Quins have also used the Evans to 10 and Smith to 15 tactic a few times this season so him slotting in at 15 isn't unusual either.

They’ve done it once from the start and, going by the replacements, it was in extremis. Playing 10/15/20 mins at 15 for your club is wholly different to playing 80mins there against France and Ireland.

Not sure about in extremis. More like a tactic towards the end of games when the opposition are flagging and there's a bit more open space to exploit from the back.

The positional awareness will be coming to him more. England sit their 10s in the backfield a fair bit as it is. The only issue for him would be contestable but they are a crap shoot now as the chaser nearly always connects with the defender first and then looks to slap the ball back as opposed to it being a contest anyway.

[Mellsblue]

Quins have also used the Evans to 10 and Smith to 15 tactic a few times this season so him slotting in at 15 isn't unusual either.

They’ve done it once from the start and, going by the replacements, it was in extremis. Playing 10/15/20 mins at 15 for your club is wholly different to playing 80mins there against France and Ireland.

Not sure about in extremis. More like a tactic towards the end of games when the opposition are flagging and there's a bit more open space to exploit from the back.

The positional awareness will be coming to him more. England sit their 10s in the backfield a fair bit as it is. The only issue for him would be contestable but they are a crap shoot now as the chaser nearly always connects with the defender first and then looks to slap the ball back as opposed to it being a contest anyway.

In extremis was in reference to the match he started at 15. How many times has he shifted to 15 for Quins?
If the positional awareness is only coming to him then he’s not ready for test rugby. He also needs the positional awareness to communicate with the rest of the back three etc etc whilst thinking where he needs to be and the positional awareness to deal with the likes of Ntamack, Russell, DuPont moving him around.

[Scrumhead]

Marcus did move to 15 last Friday but that was due to the injury to Isgro - it wasn’t a tactical ploy.

Typically, we have done it to cover in-game injuries. I can only think of two or three occasions where it’s been a deliberate attacking choice.

As @Mellsblue said - doing it in the Premiership is fine and dandy but when England are going to facing world class kickers, it’s a very different scenario.

[Mikey Brown]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gloucest ... sian-flag/

Gloucester Rugby have removed international flags from capped players’ shirts moving forward following complaints from some fans and the Ukranian community.

The Gallagher Premiership club received criticism for printing the Russian flag on the back of Kirill Gotovtsev’s shirt in contravention of the country’s widespread ostracism from international sport.

In addition to Gotovtsev, Gloucester’s starting XV against the Sharks included eight other internationals, with the flags of Wales (Freddie Thomas, Tomos Williams, Gareth Anscombe, Max Llewellyn and Josh Hathaway), Argentina (Mayco Vivas and Santi Carreras) and Chris Harris (Scotland) also on show.

This seems idiotic to me. Are people inferring support for Putin's actions just from displaying that Gotovstev has played for Russia?

I can't say I'd noticed whether other teams show any recognition of their international caps.

[oldbackrow]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gloucest ... sian-flag/

Gloucester Rugby have removed international flags from capped players’ shirts moving forward following complaints from some fans and the Ukranian community.

The Gallagher Premiership club received criticism for printing the Russian flag on the back of Kirill Gotovtsev’s shirt in contravention of the country’s widespread ostracism from international sport.

In addition to Gotovtsev, Gloucester’s starting XV against the Sharks included eight other internationals, with the flags of Wales (Freddie Thomas, Tomos Williams, Gareth Anscombe, Max Llewellyn and Josh Hathaway), Argentina (Mayco Vivas and Santi Carreras) and Chris Harris (Scotland) also on show.

This seems idiotic to me. Are people inferring support for Putin's actions just from displaying that Gotovstev has played for Russia?

I can't say I'd noticed whether other teams show any recognition of their international caps.

Agree that it seems a bit OTT not celebrating his international caps and I think most teams do don't they?

[Puja]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gloucest ... sian-flag/

Gloucester Rugby have removed international flags from capped players’ shirts moving forward following complaints from some fans and the Ukranian community.

The Gallagher Premiership club received criticism for printing the Russian flag on the back of Kirill Gotovtsev’s shirt in contravention of the country’s widespread ostracism from international sport.

In addition to Gotovtsev, Gloucester’s starting XV against the Sharks included eight other internationals, with the flags of Wales (Freddie Thomas, Tomos Williams, Gareth Anscombe, Max Llewellyn and Josh Hathaway), Argentina (Mayco Vivas and Santi Carreras) and Chris Harris (Scotland) also on show.

This seems idiotic to me. Are people inferring support for Putin's actions just from displaying that Gotovstev has played for Russia?

I can't say I'd noticed whether other teams show any recognition of their international caps.

Agree that it seems a bit OTT not celebrating his international caps and I think most teams do don't they?

Part of the sanctions on Russia is not recognising their sporting achievements and teams. It's unfair to the athletes who have no part in the war, but it is a way of putting pressure on Putin, who does care very much about sporting glory.

It may seem petty to complain about a tiny flag on someone's collar, but a tiny crack in the wall is still a crack in the wall. I understand that it has now been decided that, at Gotovtsev's request, his flag will be removed until the end of sanctions but the rest of the Glaws internationals will keep them.

Puja