Tigers Vs Sale - Friday Night

[Beasties]

That was a good watch with plenty of ebb and flow.

Sale were cruising at one stage but the wheels came off quite spectacularly in the last half an hour when they lost all composure.

Ford simply majestic at times. Sale's starting props were very good. OHC did well. Ilione put in a terrific cameo. High time this guy started a game or two.

Heyes was struggling a bit with Rodd, in spite of Kay’s "expert" analysis. Smith made absolutely no dent whatsoever on AOF. With him and Fasogbon we’re looking well sorted at TH for years to come.

[FKAS]

Am I the only one who can't get his head around why Ford runs with the ball so rarely? It's not like he's bad at it.

He's excellent at it; but he took A LOT of flack early in his career for being small, which means that if he runs with the ball and gets caught, he gets ragdolled until backup arrives. Specifically "unlike St Owen"
He's also lost a yard of pace over the last decade or so.

As above - he's never going to make a dent with physical force so any run only ends well if he makes at least a half-break. Plus the main virtue of his game is managing and directing the attack, so being buried at the bottom of a ruck is the worst result for him.

On Jonny Hill, I'm still unconvinced. He'll have games where he looks a worldbeater but it's not consistent. Add that to the occasional bouts of incredible stupidity and he's not worth crying over. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have him back in the England squad if he weren't going to France, but he's behind Chessum and, while he'd be ahead of Martin now, he'd be behind a fit and in form Martin.

Puja

Thought Hill had a good game for about an hour and then faded badly. His yellow card came as his wheels came off and the Sale pack looked cream crackers at the end. Chessum was a beast from start to finish. I do like Hill for his size and work rate but his discipline isn't the best and for a guy his size he doesn't make the dents you'd expect him to. I'd rather have Ribbans back from France and as fourth choice than Hill.

It's worth noting that Ford has had a couple of achillies injuries and that has knocked his confidence and ability to keep attacking ball in hand. Now he seems fully fit and bang in form we're seeing him at his best. I do agree though, I like having a flyhalf that attacks gaps in order to create space for others more than I do a flyhalf who likes to go himself, get tackled and then miss a phase or two because he's buried and then inevitably held in at the bottom of a ruck. You want your general leading. Pollard got away with it a couple of times for Tigers because Woodward just stepped in.

[FKAS]

That was a good watch with plenty of ebb and flow.

Sale were cruising at one stage but the wheels came off quite spectacularly in the last half an hour when they lost all composure.

Ford simply majestic at times. Sale's starting props were very good. OHC did well. Ilione put in a terrific cameo. High time this guy started a game or two.

Heyes was struggling a bit with Rodd, in spite of Kay’s "expert" analysis. Smith made absolutely no dent whatsoever on AOF. With him and Fasogbon we’re looking well sorted at TH for years to come.

Rodd had the nudge in early doors but thought Heyes came back at him well and just milked penalties out of Rodd really well. Heyes ability to just drop his weight onto Rodd and force him into hinging before he could get a nudge on and then step out and drive in changed the scrum battle notably and helped Tigers win more scrum pens. Good signs from both before the summer tour in my opinion as they both were getting stuck in, in the loose as well (Rodd played quite on the edge at the breakdown in the first half to decent effect).

AOF was quiet to the point of anonymous. He and Smith had a stalemate at scrum time but Smith was more visible in the loose.

[Puja]

That was a good watch with plenty of ebb and flow.

Sale were cruising at one stage but the wheels came off quite spectacularly in the last half an hour when they lost all composure.

Ford simply majestic at times. Sale's starting props were very good. OHC did well. Ilione put in a terrific cameo. High time this guy started a game or two.

Heyes was struggling a bit with Rodd, in spite of Kay’s "expert" analysis. Smith made absolutely no dent whatsoever on AOF. With him and Fasogbon we’re looking well sorted at TH for years to come.

Rodd had the nudge in early doors but thought Heyes came back at him well and just milked penalties out of Rodd really well. Heyes ability to just drop his weight onto Rodd and force him into hinging before he could get a nudge on and then step out and drive in changed the scrum battle notably and helped Tigers win more scrum pens. Good signs from both before the summer tour in my opinion as they both were getting stuck in, in the loose as well (Rodd played quite on the edge at the breakdown in the first half to decent effect).

AOF was quiet to the point of anonymous. He and Smith had a stalemate at scrum time but Smith was more visible in the loose.

I think Rodd definitely had the wood on Heyes through the whole match, but Heyes managed to work around it and cheat the referee to get away from contests he was losing, which tbh is possibly a more useful skill than direct scrummaging power!

You're very harsh on AOF, to my mind - it was a close battle between him and Smith at scrumtime, but he had the edge (that first scrum where he absorbed the initial drive and then came back afterwards was *chef's kiss*) and I noticed him a fair bit carrying and linking for Sale. Wasn't a highlights reel performance, but he was a big part of why we were struggling to contain them first half.

As you all say, we're discussing from a position of real strength. To have Rodd/Baxter and Heyes/AOF/Fasogbon all coming through together is a real collection of riches that'll hopefully not take too long to come to full bloom. And that's not to mention that Genge and Stuart are only 30 and 28 respectively themselves.

Puja

[Puja]

On a separate note, I was a bit disappointed by JVP last night. Thought his passing accuracy was much lower than I'm used to seeing from him - too many passes were dipping and dying on people - and I still don't like his front-on box-kick technique as it looks an invitation to a charge-down unless he's perfectly set. He also looked rattled after Hill did charge him, and a good few of his following kicks went very high without going as far as he'd've liked. Challenging night, and hopefully one he'll be learning from.

Come to think of it, wasn't it against Sale where he has his Prem debut and had that absolute nightmare where he was charged down almost every other kick? He's improved out of sight and grown up quite a bit since that day, but I wonder if it was still a little bit of nerves and ingrained trauma that caused his standards to drop?

Puja

[fivepointer]

Think Rodd is playing that well it wouldnt surprise me if he started in Argentina. AOF is simply remarkable. He's 20. He came up against a highly competent seasoned LH who is in great form and more than held his own. I've not seen anyone get into this kid and give him a working over.

[Oakboy]

On a separate note, I was a bit disappointed by JVP last night. Thought his passing accuracy was much lower than I'm used to seeing from him - too many passes were dipping and dying on people - and I still don't like his front-on box-kick technique as it looks an invitation to a charge-down unless he's perfectly set. He also looked rattled after Hill did charge him, and a good few of his following kicks went very high without going as far as he'd've liked. Challenging night, and hopefully one he'll be learning from.

Come to think of it, wasn't it against Sale where he has his Prem debut and had that absolute nightmare where he was charged down almost every other kick? He's improved out of sight and grown up quite a bit since that day, but I wonder if it was still a little bit of nerves and ingrained trauma that caused his standards to drop?

Puja

Simple solution - stop/reduce box-kicking, especially while he's got such a good FH partner.

[Mikey Brown]

In a one off game, sure, but I don’t imagine Borthwick will be keen on him saying he’s sworn off kicking.

[Oakboy]

In a one off game, sure, but I don’t imagine Borthwick will be keen on him saying he’s sworn off kicking.

You're right. It could start a trend. That would never do!

[FKAS]

On a separate note, I was a bit disappointed by JVP last night. Thought his passing accuracy was much lower than I'm used to seeing from him - too many passes were dipping and dying on people - and I still don't like his front-on box-kick technique as it looks an invitation to a charge-down unless he's perfectly set. He also looked rattled after Hill did charge him, and a good few of his following kicks went very high without going as far as he'd've liked. Challenging night, and hopefully one he'll be learning from.

Come to think of it, wasn't it against Sale where he has his Prem debut and had that absolute nightmare where he was charged down almost every other kick? He's improved out of sight and grown up quite a bit since that day, but I wonder if it was still a little bit of nerves and ingrained trauma that caused his standards to drop?

Puja

Simple solution - stop/reduce box-kicking, especially while he's got such a good FH partner.

Pollard's clearing kicks weren't reliably finding touch and Sale were wise to the spin it across the backline to Steward so he can smash it long approach. Led to JVP having to take most of the kicking on. He looked tired.

To Puja's point it was an away day when iirc a 17 year old JVP got trotted out to try and lead an abject Tigers team away at Sale. Poor sod had no protection nor momentum to play with.

JVP's style is a bit risky but he does get a lot of length and height.

[FKAS]

Think Rodd is playing that well it wouldnt surprise me if he started in Argentina. AOF is simply remarkable. He's 20. He came up against a highly competent seasoned LH who is in great form and more than held his own. I've not seen anyone get into this kid and give him a working over.

Rodd is in good form and should be competing with Baxter for the starting job. He's still only 24, so should be just coming into his prime despite it seeming like he's been around for ages already. AOF is quality, being so compact and explosive it's very difficult for LHs to get underneath him or just bully their way past him. Does help that for Sale they've got the best part of 40 stone worth of locks behind them.

[francoisfou]

Think Rodd is playing that well it wouldnt surprise me if he started in Argentina. AOF is simply remarkable. He's 20. He came up against a highly competent seasoned LH who is in great form and more than held his own. I've not seen anyone get into this kid and give him a working over.

Rodd is in good form and should be competing with Baxter for the starting job. He's still only 24, so should be just coming into his prime despite it seeming like he's been around for ages already. AOF is quality, being so compact and explosive it's very difficult for LHs to get underneath him or just bully their way past him. Does help that for Sale they've got the best part of 40 stone worth of locks behind them.

Yes, most certainly!
Dominating props are significantly helped by the grunt coming from behind them.

[Puja]

To Puja's point it was an away day when iirc a 17 year old JVP got trotted out to try and lead an abject Tigers team away at Sale. Poor sod had no protection nor momentum to play with.

Oh yeah, absolutely not blaming him. Poor little sod got chucked in at the very deep end in the worst of circumstances and unfortunately the rest of the team stood and watched as he sank to the very bottom. Just wondering if he might be still a touch traumatised.

Puja

[Beasties]

That was a good watch with plenty of ebb and flow.

Sale were cruising at one stage but the wheels came off quite spectacularly in the last half an hour when they lost all composure.

Ford simply majestic at times. Sale's starting props were very good. OHC did well. Ilione put in a terrific cameo. High time this guy started a game or two.

Heyes was struggling a bit with Rodd, in spite of Kay’s "expert" analysis. Smith made absolutely no dent whatsoever on AOF. With him and Fasogbon we’re looking well sorted at TH for years to come.

Rodd had the nudge in early doors but thought Heyes came back at him well and just milked penalties out of Rodd really well. Heyes ability to just drop his weight onto Rodd and force him into hinging before he could get a nudge on and then step out and drive in changed the scrum battle notably and helped Tigers win more scrum pens. Good signs from both before the summer tour in my opinion as they both were getting stuck in, in the loose as well (Rodd played quite on the edge at the breakdown in the first half to decent effect).

AOF was quiet to the point of anonymous. He and Smith had a stalemate at scrum time but Smith was more visible in the loose.

Don’t agree at all. Heyes kept getting long-legged because he was under pressure. He couldn’t keep his weight up and collapsed. Not Rodd’s fault the ref and touchjudge interpreted it wrongly.

[FKAS]

Heyes was struggling a bit with Rodd, in spite of Kay’s "expert" analysis. Smith made absolutely no dent whatsoever on AOF. With him and Fasogbon we’re looking well sorted at TH for years to come.

Rodd had the nudge in early doors but thought Heyes came back at him well and just milked penalties out of Rodd really well. Heyes ability to just drop his weight onto Rodd and force him into hinging before he could get a nudge on and then step out and drive in changed the scrum battle notably and helped Tigers win more scrum pens. Good signs from both before the summer tour in my opinion as they both were getting stuck in, in the loose as well (Rodd played quite on the edge at the breakdown in the first half to decent effect).

AOF was quiet to the point of anonymous. He and Smith had a stalemate at scrum time but Smith was more visible in the loose.

Don’t agree at all. Heyes kept getting long-legged because he was under pressure. He couldn’t keep his weight up and collapsed. Not Rodd’s fault the ref and touchjudge interpreted it wrongly.

Rodd also didn't scrummage straight, as soon as he got a nudge on, he'd swing out and drive in. Lots of cheating from both sides, Heyes just found a way to cheat before the Sale weight came into play. Rodd couldn't take Heyes bulk on set and hinged. Heyes had no intention of pushing, you're not wrong there but Rodd had to take the weight and ease Heyes down rather than just folding.

[FKAS]

To Puja's point it was an away day when iirc a 17 year old JVP got trotted out to try and lead an abject Tigers team away at Sale. Poor sod had no protection nor momentum to play with.

Oh yeah, absolutely not blaming him. Poor little sod got chucked in at the very deep end in the worst of circumstances and unfortunately the rest of the team stood and watched as he sank to the very bottom. Just wondering if he might be still a touch traumatised.

Puja

He's improved his box kicking but he's quite long legged for a 9 and his tendency to kick high and long does open him up for charge downs. The Boks also targeted him (with some questionable onside calls) the other AIs with success. He should be used to it by now.

[Beasties]

Rodd had the nudge in early doors but thought Heyes came back at him well and just milked penalties out of Rodd really well. Heyes ability to just drop his weight onto Rodd and force him into hinging before he could get a nudge on and then step out and drive in changed the scrum battle notably and helped Tigers win more scrum pens. Good signs from both before the summer tour in my opinion as they both were getting stuck in, in the loose as well (Rodd played quite on the edge at the breakdown in the first half to decent effect).

AOF was quiet to the point of anonymous. He and Smith had a stalemate at scrum time but Smith was more visible in the loose.

Don’t agree at all. Heyes kept getting long-legged because he was under pressure. He couldn’t keep his weight up and collapsed. Not Rodd’s fault the ref and touchjudge interpreted it wrongly.

Rodd also didn't scrummage straight, as soon as he got a nudge on, he'd swing out and drive in. Lots of cheating from both sides, Heyes just found a way to cheat before the Sale weight came into play. Rodd couldn't take Heyes bulk on set and hinged. Heyes had no intention of pushing, you're not wrong there but Rodd had to take the weight and ease Heyes down rather than just folding.

When your TH’s pulling you down because he can’t hold his own weight it looks like the LH’s hinging, but there’s fekk all the LH can do. There are so many pens given for exactly this, doesn’t remotely make it right. It prob evens out over a season but it always boils my piss.

[FKAS]

Don’t agree at all. Heyes kept getting long-legged because he was under pressure. He couldn’t keep his weight up and collapsed. Not Rodd’s fault the ref and touchjudge interpreted it wrongly.

Rodd also didn't scrummage straight, as soon as he got a nudge on, he'd swing out and drive in. Lots of cheating from both sides, Heyes just found a way to cheat before the Sale weight came into play. Rodd couldn't take Heyes bulk on set and hinged. Heyes had no intention of pushing, you're not wrong there but Rodd had to take the weight and ease Heyes down rather than just folding.

When your TH’s pulling you down because he can’t hold his own weight it looks like the LH’s hinging, but there’s fekk all the LH can do. There are so many pens given for exactly this, doesn’t remotely make it right. It prob evens out over a season but it always boils my piss.

Only when your loosehead can't take the weight. More powerful looseheads hold their shape and lower the over extended tighthead to the floor. Nicky Smith giving Heyes that treatment was a key audition in Tigers deciding they needed to bring him onboard.

[Beasties]

Rodd also didn't scrummage straight, as soon as he got a nudge on, he'd swing out and drive in. Lots of cheating from both sides, Heyes just found a way to cheat before the Sale weight came into play. Rodd couldn't take Heyes bulk on set and hinged. Heyes had no intention of pushing, you're not wrong there but Rodd had to take the weight and ease Heyes down rather than just folding.

When your TH’s pulling you down because he can’t hold his own weight it looks like the LH’s hinging, but there’s fekk all the LH can do. There are so many pens given for exactly this, doesn’t remotely make it right. It prob evens out over a season but it always boils my piss.

Only when your loosehead can't take the weight. More powerful looseheads hold their shape and lower the over extended tighthead to the floor. Nicky Smith giving Heyes that treatment was a key audition in Tigers deciding they needed to bring him onboard.

We’re not going to agree on this so let's park it.