Big D wrote:
To be fair to Gatland, and I know it is hard to, he goes onto talk about someone knowing the players character etc to help on 50/50 calls which isn't unreasonable to be fair. There is no way Gatland should be allowed into team sessions to get to know players that closely so he will be relying on those around the selection table helping out. And to his credit he has tried to get multi-national representation. That's where the credit ends.
I can understand the nations not letting him near their session, the other 40 odd weeks that he will be employed I can't see teams not inviting him in to do guest training sessions and see what players respond to his methods.
For the second time running the Lions have picked the wrong man for the NZ tour and it will come back to bite him
I don't think so many coaches have ever turned down the Lions
Eddie Jones
Toonie
oHallaran
Schmit
To be honest asking Townsend to be asst to Howley was a f**king joke and should be called out for it
I thought Townsend was offered the attack coach, if not then he was 100% right to say no.
One or two sessions isn't enough to really know a players character or how responsive they are to methods though. It is a shame that the choice between Gatland and Schmit had to made so early in the year. Jones had always said he wouldn't take the Lions job.
Have they not got a laptop between them? Can they not ask for footage of matches? Does nobody have an email account? Can nobody ask the players club/country coaches specific questions?
Big D wrote:
To be fair to Gatland, and I know it is hard to, he goes onto talk about someone knowing the players character etc to help on 50/50 calls which isn't unreasonable to be fair. There is no way Gatland should be allowed into team sessions to get to know players that closely so he will be relying on those around the selection table helping out. And to his credit he has tried to get multi-national representation. That's where the credit ends.
I can understand the nations not letting him near their session, the other 40 odd weeks that he will be employed I can't see teams not inviting him in to do guest training sessions and see what players respond to his methods.
For the second time running the Lions have picked the wrong man for the NZ tour and it will come back to bite him
I don't think so many coaches have ever turned down the Lions
Eddie Jones
Toonie
oHallaran
Schmit
To be honest asking Townsend to be asst to Howley was a f**king joke and should be called out for it
This gave me cancer!!!! Explain yourself!
Apologies, for some reason wrong can't and not instead of can
whatisthejava wrote:
I can understand the nations not letting him near their session, the other 40 odd weeks that he will be employed I can't see teams not inviting him in to do guest training sessions and see what players respond to his methods.
For the second time running the Lions have picked the wrong man for the NZ tour and it will come back to bite him
I don't think so many coaches have ever turned down the Lions
Eddie Jones
Toonie
oHallaran
Schmit
To be honest asking Townsend to be asst to Howley was a f**king joke and should be called out for it
This gave me cancer!!!! Explain yourself!
Apologies, for some reason wrong can't and not instead of can
OptimisticJock wrote:Have they not got a laptop between them? Can they not ask for footage of matches? Does nobody have an email account? Can nobody ask the players club/country coaches specific questions?
Yes to all most likely, but they "choose" not to.
Far easier to build a case, as Gatland seems to be doing, by saying things like
- "The SRU are to blame for Townsend declining to tour"
- "I asked for someone to provide insight and push for Scottish players inclusion"
- "They all turned me down so is it any surprise there aren't more Scottish players involved?"
Gatland has proved time again with his mealy-mouthed pre-match mind games to be the king of deflection and what-about-ery.
He missed two. but he also charged out of the defensive line to drag down, I think, Brice Dulin who was looking to hit the line from deep. Rare to see that from a lock.
kk67 wrote:Jonny and Ian will travel.
Richie will too. And Launch,.....and +2. Devon and AWJ.
Devin Toner, a lion? Tell me another one!
I dont rate Toner that highly but others do , he has managed to hold down his position for Ireland and Leinster but id have Henderson and POM in ahead of him for Ireland
A bit of a useless giraffe who wins line out ball by being about 25ft tall
kk67 wrote:Jonny and Ian will travel.
Richie will too. And Launch,.....and +2. Devon and AWJ.
Devin Toner, a lion? Tell me another one!
I dont rate Toner that highly but others do , he has managed to hold down his position for Ireland and Leinster but id have Henderson and POM in ahead of him for Ireland
A bit of a useless giraffe who wins line out ball by being about 25ft tall
POM isn't a lock.
Toner was a useless giraffe about 4 years ago such that the only thing any commentator could find to say about him was his height. He was lucky to have a place at Leinster, never mind Ireland or the Lions. He's now a very good rugby player who was an important part of our victory over NZ and other wins this year. Having completely secure line out ball isn't nothing in any event. Whilst he's almost certainly not going to tour, that's becuse it's a position of unusual strength.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Toner tour. I think he is both under rated by some and over rated by some.
My own preferred starting combo would be Itoje and Gray Jnr but there are lots of player in with a chance of probably only 5 or 6 spots. The fact that Henderson and Itoje could play 6 means there could be 6 go.
Gray (J)
Itoje
Launchbury
Kruis
Gray (R)
Toner
Henderson
AWJ
Even Lawes and Charteris will all be discussed as having a chance.
Toner would be lucky to make the bench for any other home nation. He absolutely will not tour bar injury to other options.
His position in the Ireland set up says more about their resources at lock than his own ability. Since the days of POC & DOC Ireland's best locks at provincial level have largely been imports.
Big D wrote:I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Toner tour. I think he is both under rated by some and over rated by some.
My own preferred starting combo would be Itoje and Gray Jnr but there are lots of player in with a chance of probably only 5 or 6 spots. The fact that Henderson and Itoje could play 6 means there could be 6 go.
Gray (J)
Itoje
Launchbury
Kruis
Gray (R)
Toner
Henderson
AWJ
Even Lawes and Charteris will all be discussed as having a chance.
Yup. Toner, Launchbury and AWj are just that bit special. But Henderson, Itoje and Clarteris are proper quality.
The Gray Brothers are a law unto themselves, capable of ruining anyone's breakdown. And CGS goes smash.
Pick the bones out of that.
hugh_woatmeigh wrote:
Devin Toner, a lion? Tell me another one!
I dont rate Toner that highly but others do , he has managed to hold down his position for Ireland and Leinster but id have Henderson and POM in ahead of him for Ireland
A bit of a useless giraffe who wins line out ball by being about 25ft tall
POM isn't a lock.
Toner was a useless giraffe about 4 years ago such that the only thing any commentator could find to say about him was his height. He was lucky to have a place at Leinster, never mind Ireland or the Lions. He's now a very good rugby player who was an important part of our victory over NZ and other wins this year. Having completely secure line out ball isn't nothing in any event. Whilst he's almost certainly not going to tour, that's becuse it's a position of unusual strength.
I've always found Toners hands to be pretty good. In fact it's always been one of his stand out attributes.
And one of the reasons he's up there with Launchbury.
An article in today's The Times I thought might interest you all:
'It is about this time in the four-year cycle when traditionally we start scratching our heads and the non-Scots smirk as we wonder if any players from north of the border will make the Lions Test team in the summer. Then the smirkers take it one step further to ask whether any of them will actually make the squad.
Scotland’s Lions representation in recent tours has indeed been notoriously feeble. And yes, there is fun to be had in that, but from a Lions point of view four strong home nations are always going to be more effective than three.
Gatland has suggested that the SRU has not been supportive of his efforts to assemble a coaching team
There has to be buy-in from them all that the Lions are not only the pinnacle of the game but also a cause to which they will give their support. In which case, it seems a small-minded, unadventurous, insular and miserly mentality that has resulted in not one Scotland coach saying no to a place on the Lions coaching staff, but two.
On the playing front, Scotland have not had a starter in a Lions Test since Tom Smith in 2001. They have managed appearances off the bench during the third Test in each of the past three tours. At this point, though, you would back the 2017 tourists to have a bigger presence from Scotland. Shortly before the RBS Six Nations Championship, when so much will change, Stuart Hogg would be many people’s favourite to be the starting full back. Mine too.
However, there is a difference between playing your way on to the tour and receiving a phone call from Warren Gatland, the head coach, offering you a spot on the plane.
Gatland has been clear that he wants a second attack coach on the tour to share the workload with the backs alongside Rob Howley. He first turned to Gregor Townsend, the Glasgow Warriors head coach, who will take over the same role for Scotland in the summer. When Townsend turned him down, he turned to Jason O’Halloran, the Kiwi who is the Scotland backs coach, and he turned him down too.
Missing out on one Scottish coach may be regarded as a misfortune and all that, but missing out on two looks as though Scotland are not fully behind the campaign.
Why Townsend would say no is perfectly understandable: to become Scotland coach and then miss your first engagement, a tour to Australia, would be compromising. Joe Schmidt, the Ireland head coach, also said no, and Eddie Jones, his England counterpart, long ago made it clear that he was a Lions no-go zone.
Townsend’s reason for turning down Gatland is perfectly understandable
However, O’Halloran’s explanation — that he has to be with Glasgow, whom he will join in the summer, to conduct their pre-season training — seems more a dereliction of duty.
To what extent the Scottish Rugby Union (SRU) has a hand in this remains unclear. When announcing his assistant coaches, six weeks ago, Gatland suggested that the SRU had not been supportive. It seems mere narrow-mindedness for it to allow two coaches to say no. The SRU should be pushing its men forward: “Yes, yes, we’d love our coaching staff to share in that extreme, precious learning experience that a Lions tour provides.” Contributing a coach to the Lions team is not just giving to the cause, it is an opportunity to take away too.
The O’Halloran defence is lame. Yes, Glasgow may have to start their pre-season this summer without their incoming head coach, Dave Rennie, because he cannot be sure of his release date from Super Rugby franchise the Chiefs. However, it is not as if O’Halloran is the only option. Jonathan Humphreys, the Scotland forwards coach, is also migrating from the national side to the Warriors next season and he would be well equipped to do the job. It is merely a holding operation; O’Halloran would be back by mid-July.
As it is, Gatland still has no second attack coach. Last week, he announced more support staff — the heads of medical, strength and conditioning and analysis — and there is now a group widely populated by Welsh, English and Irish but with not one Scot among them. That is a Scottish decision and more’s the shame.
It remains unclear, now, who Gatland will appoint to that position of second backs coach. Maybe no one. The Lions, however, should have the pick of the bunch: they should not be scrabbling around so close to the tour still trying to persuade someone to come on board.
There are not many obvious, strong candidates around now anyway, not from the international game, which is why Gatland could do no better than turn to Mark McCall, the director of rugby at Saracens. McCall’s credentials are there for all to see on his CV. He is the most successful club coach in the four home unions. And his club is an environment that openly embraces new experiences, new learnings, that is outward looking, not inward, that is all the things that you would not say about Scotland right now.
Mellsblue wrote:An article in today's The Times I thought might interest you all:
....
I read that as Gatland has his contacts laying the foundation for him picking welsh players instead of Scots and this year it suits me fine, Gatland is an awful pick and to request that Townsend, Schmit or anyone with 1 brain and 2 arms should be understudy to a man that would lose a popularity contest with a wet fish is embarrassing
I could understand this faux outrage if it was Scottish players saying "I'm alright thanks".
As a player its the pinnacle of their career so regardless of their opinion of Tw@tland they should jump at the chance. As a coach you are accepting to work for that tool. The coaches could quite well get another offer of it in 4 years. Toonie might even think he's in with a shout of HC if he works wonders with Scotland.
Mellsblue wrote:An article in today's The Times I thought might interest you all:
....
I read that as Gatland has his contacts laying the foundation for him picking welsh players instead of Scots and this year it suits me fine, Gatland is an awful pick and to request that Townsend, Schmit or anyone with 1 brain and 2 arms should be understudy to a man that would lose a popularity contest with a wet fish is embarrassing
It wasn't even that, it was asking Townsend to be Howleys fucking understudy. Fucking understudy to fucking Howley.
However, O’Halloran’s (the Kiwi who is the Scotland backs coach) explanation (for turning down the backs coach job) seems more a dereliction of duty.
Hmmm....
Nobody wants to work under Gatland, and it's Scotland's fault.
Gatland can leave out EVERY Scotland player as far as I'm concerned. I lost interest in the concept about the time I realized that Pro Rugby had changed the game forever - about 5 minutes after it was sanctioned.
Mellsblue wrote:The responses have been everything I wanted and hoped for. Thank you.
Its the sort of article that really pisses me off. Scottish players and coaches have been held in utter contempt and ritually humiliated by every non-scottish lions coach for the last feck knows how many tours, and our guys are supposed to just keep on bending over and waiting for it?
Fuck off, cunt (the author, not you). Its a 2 way street, and if cuntybaws wants scottish commitment, some feckin commitment has to come the other way too. Any number of scottish players have had perfectly good shots at lions jerseys taken away from them by coaches who cant see past their own feckin ring piece, but we're still supposed to come begging for a scrap from the big boys table like some feckin toy poodle? As someone else said, Townsend was asked to be understudy to Howley. Stick that right up your feckin jacksie.
Cunt.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
