RugbyRebels

Timbo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Timbo wrote:If Shields doesn’t get picked it may well be Dombrandt that goes to Japan, but I can’t say it makes much sense to me. I’d have serious concerns about whether he’s got the kind of graft in his game to compliment Billy at 8, and he doesn’t jump in the lineout. We’d be hugely reliant on Mark Wilson staying fit to balance out the backrow.

It wouldn't really change much. We're picking 5 back row, so three starters in Wilson/Curry/Vunipola and two back ups to cover three positions.

If Shield is fit, then Shields covers both Wilson and BillyV (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Curry. If Dombrandt goes, then he covers Vunipola (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Wilson and Curry. You're basically either asking Shield to cover two players or Underhill to.

Puja

If Wilson is injured and Underhill plays 6 we’ll not have even the pretence of a lineout option in the backrow.

Tom Curry catches the lineout ball during the England captain's run at Twickenham Stadium on March

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:

Timbo wrote:If Shields doesn’t get picked it may well be Dombrandt that goes to Japan, but I can’t say it makes much sense to me. I’d have serious concerns about whether he’s got the kind of graft in his game to compliment Billy at 8, and he doesn’t jump in the lineout. We’d be hugely reliant on Mark Wilson staying fit to balance out the backrow.

It wouldn't really change much. We're picking 5 back row, so three starters in Wilson/Curry/Vunipola and two back ups to cover three positions.

If Shield is fit, then Shields covers both Wilson and BillyV (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Curry. If Dombrandt goes, then he covers Vunipola (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Wilson and Curry. You're basically either asking Shield to cover two players or Underhill to.

Puja

TBH, I agree with both of you.

My only real reservation on Dombrandt is work rate. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he’s lazy and he’s shown he can play 80mins on several occasions for Quins (also did 80 vs. The Barbarians IIRC). However, Quins set up to get the best out of him with Robshaw and Clifford (or Chisholm) doing almost all of the donkey work to the extent that I’m not really sure if he’s any good at the breakdown because I’ve not seen him competing?

With all of that said, there is no way Eddie will pick a player who doesn’t work hard so perhaps it’s more of a perception I’be built by watching him play for Quins.

Yeah, he’s definitely not lazy. I think his conditioning has improved loads and he doesn’t seem to noticeably drop off late in games or anything. But like you say, not sure of his technical skills around breakdown and tackle area etc, and that doesn’t seem to be where his natural strengths lie.

Just seems to me like we have an obvious replacement for Shields in Robshaw.

Puja wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Puja wrote:
It wouldn't really change much. We're picking 5 back row, so three starters in Wilson/Curry/Vunipola and two back ups to cover three positions.

If Shield is fit, then Shields covers both Wilson and BillyV (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Curry. If Dombrandt goes, then he covers Vunipola (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Wilson and Curry. You're basically either asking Shield to cover two players or Underhill to.

Puja

If Wilson is injured and Underhill plays 6 we’ll not have even the pretence of a lineout option in the backrow.

Tom Curry catches the lineout ball during the England captain's run at Twickenham Stadium on March

Puja

Has he been used as a front line option for England or Sale before? He’s not especially tall (relative to test class lineout jumpers) is he?

Puja wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Puja wrote:
It wouldn't really change much. We're picking 5 back row, so three starters in Wilson/Curry/Vunipola and two back ups to cover three positions.

If Shield is fit, then Shields covers both Wilson and BillyV (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Curry. If Dombrandt goes, then he covers Vunipola (with Wilson moving to 8) and Underhill covers Wilson and Curry. You're basically either asking Shield to cover two players or Underhill to.

Puja

If Wilson is injured and Underhill plays 6 we’ll not have even the pretence of a lineout option in the backrow.

Tom Curry catches the lineout ball during the England captain's run at Twickenham Stadium on March


Rugby Union, Autumn International series, England versus Australia; Sam Underhill of England wins a line out

Puja

Second one is clearly Shields, with Underhill in the 7 shirt.

Raggs wrote:

Puja wrote:

Timbo wrote:
If Wilson is injured and Underhill plays 6 we’ll not have even the pretence of a lineout option in the backrow.

Tom Curry catches the lineout ball during the England captain's run at Twickenham Stadium on March


Rugby Union, Autumn International series, England versus Australia; Sam Underhill of England wins a line out

Puja

Second one is clearly Shields, with Underhill in the 7 shirt.

Yeah, I'd just noticed that and deleted it, but you quoted me first, damn you! Underhill has jumped in the lineout for both Bath and England before, although he's not really a go-to option. Curry would be first choice target in that back row.

Timbo wrote: Has he been used as a front line option for England or Sale before? He’s not especially tall (relative to test class lineout jumpers) is he?

He's regularly used by Sale and has been used semi-regularly by England. He's only an inch or so shorter than Wilson, so he's hardly short, and back ball is more about movement than height.

Puja

Curry is short-ish for a lineout option but doesn’t he jump quite well and often for Sale?

Whoops. I posted that without opening the next page.

Why would he need to be used at the front anyway?

Mikey Brown wrote:Whoops. I posted that without opening the next page.

Why would he need to be used at the front anyway?

Because it's more important to have 3 top lineout jumpers than a balanced backrow.

I’d argue that depends upon who you are playing. No disrespect to either team, but Tonga and the USA aren’t known for their world-class lineouts.

I know we need to be prepared for every eventuality, but I think two locks and one of Underhill or Curry jumping would be fine for those games.

I’d also say that a balanced back row is more important in more facets of the game than the lineout IMO. We’re talking about having two good jumpers and one OK jumper. That’s no different to most sides. Also worth noting that none of the lineouts I’ve seen from the RC teams are anything particularly special.

Mikey Brown interviewed on the BBC Rugby site this morning about training and humidity.
I am hoping we can read into that, that he is back in the fold as a senior player, trusted to give interviews and on the plane.

Stom wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Whoops. I posted that without opening the next page.

Why would he need to be used at the front anyway?

Because it's more important to have 3 top lineout jumpers than a balanced backrow.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not there. If you're not, then Lawtoje is always an option. Wouldn't be one I'd use; Curry is perfectly serviceable as a lineout option.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote:Whoops. I posted that without opening the next page.

Why would he need to be used at the front anyway?

Front line, as in being a genuine option.

Stom wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Whoops. I posted that without opening the next page.

Why would he need to be used at the front anyway?

Because it's more important to have 3 top lineout jumpers than a balanced backrow.

A balanced pack will have 3 genuine options. If Curry is that 3rd option then great, but I remain sceptical.

Lineout is often where test matches are won and lost.

This debate makes me even more amazed that Armand is not in the mix.

Puja wrote:

John Mitchell wrote:"George [Kruis] is back in training this week which is fantastic. The medical team have done a great job on his progressive return and he is full of enthusiasm and looking great. Mako is progressing nicely, too. We should see him back at some point in August."

Great news. In the same interview, Mitchell praises Dombrandt, saying “Every day he’s getting a little bit better and learning a lot. He’s been quite outstanding.”

Puja

Concerning Dombrandt on a no.8 stylistic scale with Jack Clifford at one extreme and Billy Vunipola a the other, where along it may he sit?

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:

John Mitchell wrote:"George [Kruis] is back in training this week which is fantastic. The medical team have done a great job on his progressive return and he is full of enthusiasm and looking great. Mako is progressing nicely, too. We should see him back at some point in August."

Great news. In the same interview, Mitchell praises Dombrandt, saying “Every day he’s getting a little bit better and learning a lot. He’s been quite outstanding.”

Puja

Concerning Dombrandt on a no.8 stylistic scale with Jack Clifford at one extreme and Billy Vunipola a the other, where along it may he sit?

Why is Clifford one extreme and Billy the other?

Surely the extremes would be more like Kvesic and Morgan, for instance. Or Kvesic and...Jordan Crane.

Dombrandt picks beautiful lines. He's strong, quick, and has a good rugby brain. He needs some conditioning.

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:

John Mitchell wrote:"George [Kruis] is back in training this week which is fantastic. The medical team have done a great job on his progressive return and he is full of enthusiasm and looking great. Mako is progressing nicely, too. We should see him back at some point in August."

Great news. In the same interview, Mitchell praises Dombrandt, saying “Every day he’s getting a little bit better and learning a lot. He’s been quite outstanding.”

Puja

Concerning Dombrandt on a no.8 stylistic scale with Jack Clifford at one extreme and Billy Vunipola a the other, where along it may he sit?

He's more of a 6 than an 8. Although he can cover there, Wilson is more natural at the back of the scrum, so if Billy goes down, then we'd have Dombrandt at 6 and Wilson go to 8. In terms of style, he's definitely on the BillyV end of the spectrum. I don't think you could play both of them in the same back row.

Puja

See I’d have Dombrandt as an 8 rather than a 6.

I agree he’s closer to the Billy end of the spectrum, but I’d have said he’s closer to Morgan in that he uses footwork and clever running lines rather than outright power.

Puja wrote:

Stom wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Whoops. I posted that without opening the next page.

Why would he need to be used at the front anyway?

Because it's more important to have 3 top lineout jumpers than a balanced backrow.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not there. If you're not, then Lawtoje is always an option. Wouldn't be one I'd use; Curry is perfectly serviceable as a lineout option.

Puja

It really hadn’t occurred to me he was being serious.

I’d have Wilson at the base too if Dombrandt needed to replace Billy, but it at least makes up for some of the oomph lost. Though he’s not as strong in many other areas as Billy I could still see him doing some damage.

Timbo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Whoops. I posted that without opening the next page.

Why would he need to be used at the front anyway?

Because it's more important to have 3 top lineout jumpers than a balanced backrow.

A balanced pack will have 3 genuine options. If Curry is that 3rd option then great, but I remain sceptical.

Lineout is often where test matches are won and lost.

I don’t entirely disagree and I think this is why Eddie wanted Itoje or Lawes to work our better at 6. However, Wilson, Curry and Billy is our best back row combination by some distance and I wouldn’t want to compromise that for a slightly better lineout jumper.

We don’t have an O’Mahony or a Shingler type and someone like Shields isn’t good enough to warrant picking solely for his lineout jumping.

Not quite sure where to put the following but this seemed the most apt......

Interesting couple of posts by Russ Petty on twatter:

Not great for us on the face of it, but the only short turnaround time is between the Tonga and USA games. We can surely manage that?

We’ve got 8 days to get set for Argentina and 6 for France which is more than they have in both cases.

It doesn’t look like we’ve been too hard done by. By contrast, I noticed Scotland only have 3 days between Russia and what will probably be a crunch game against Japan. I’d expect their reserves to beat Russia, but I’m not sure they have the strength in depth to rest most of the frontline players. Particularly if they need a BP win.

Yet another reason for a 24 team RWC IMO. Even a fairer schedule than previous iterations leaves some teams better off than others when there are 5-team pools.

Anyone else think there's a case for 2 completely separate XVs for the Tonga and USA games? Even with the US's recent improvement, you'd like to hope that a mixed side would be strong enough to take both of them down, and it'd put us in a better position for the rest of the comp than shifting most of our squad across the country and back again. The 8 day turnaround to Argentina would give us time to reintegrate the two squads and pick our best XV for our first main test.

Puja

In short. Yes. No disrespect to Tonga or USA but we could probably afford to leave out most of our first choice starting XV.

Something like the following would be decent:

1. Marler
2. Cowan-Dickie
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Launchbury
6. Shields/Dombrandt
7. Underhill
8. Wilson
9. Spencer
10. Ford (c)
11. Cokanasiga
12. Te’o
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Watson/Daly

I'd probably go a mixed XV for both with a bit of horses for courses. Cokanasiga's not going to be anything unusual to Tonga, but will be horrible for the US to deal with. Same with Tuilagi. I'd also keep the key players who we can't afford to lose to injuries (Vunipolae, George, Youngs) away from the angry Polynesians.

I'd go with:
Marler
LCD
Sinckler
Itoje
Kruis
Dombrandt/Shields
Curry
Wilson
Spencer
Ford
May
Te'o (as we apparently are going to select him regardless of anything else)
Slade
Watson
Daly


And then,

Mako
George
Cole
Launch
Lawes
Dombrandt/Shields
Underhill
BillyV
Youngs
Farrell
Cokanasiga
Manu
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

This is assuming 4 centres and either 5 props or 2 s/h.

Puja