England vs Wales match thread - RWC warmup, Raeburn Shield challenge, and chance to take down the #1 ranked team

[Raggs]

Gloucester did see a massive improvement last season, playing extremely well and reaching the playoffs, seems pretty obvious that it was down to Heinz, as I can't think of any other player it could have been down to. Obviously such an impact had to be rewarded by at least giving them a shot, despite age and lack of previous caps.

[twitchy]

I suppose we just need to trust eddie at this point. What else can we do?

[Digby]

Stare in perplexed and indeed vexed fashion at squad and team lineups wondering why paid professionals think it will work. Still it's only 15 years in a row of this, the change is just around the corner

[Oakboy]

I suppose we just need to trust eddie at this point. What else can we do?

Precisely, but there has to be some hint of panic to award first caps in warm-up games. At this point, I'd want to see refinement of style/tactics for the 1st choice 23 and some game time for the other 8. Can we really be witnessing a management crew still debating final choices for plane seats? Let's face it, the debutants might play badly. What then?

[Raggs]

We've effectively got 2 warmup games in USA and Tonga, I can't blame Eddie for not worrying about getting most the 1st team running about so early.

[Scrumhead]

Gloucester did see a massive improvement last season, playing extremely well and reaching the playoffs, seems pretty obvious that it was down to Heinz, as I can't think of any other player it could have been down to. Obviously such an impact had to be rewarded by at least giving them a shot, despite age and lack of previous caps.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not? Heinz was good for Gloucester last season so credit where credit’s due, but surely Cipriani was the difference in them making the top 4.

[fivepointer]

We shouldnt really be in a position where we are fielding so many inexperienced players this close a WC. You could forgive the odd one or two coming through late, but half the squad we're putting out tomorrow is very green in international terms.
In addition to the 5 making their first appearance, we are fielding a hooker who hasnt started a test (LCD 11 tests, all as a replacement), a centre who has started 1 test, a prop who has 4 starts, a lock with 4 starts, 2 flankers who between them have 15 starts and a winger on the bench who has started 3 games.
Experience isnt everything, but there's a very good chance that the squad we send to the WC will be uniquely short of that commodity.

[twitchy]

We shouldnt really be in a position where we are fielding so many inexperienced players this close a WC. You could forgive the odd one or two coming through late, but half the squad we're putting out tomorrow is very green in international terms.
In addition to the 5 making their first appearance, we are fielding a hooker who hasnt started a test (LCD 11 tests, all as a replacement), a centre who has started 1 test, a prop who has 4 starts, a lock with 4 starts, 2 flankers who between them have 15 starts and a winger on the bench who has started 3 games.
Experience isnt everything, but there's a very good chance that the squad we send to the WC will be uniquely short of that commodity.

You can't imagine any other top tier nation doing it can you. Oh well.

[Stom]

I just hope the rfu have a break lause in Jones' contract for after the WC.

It's really sad because the talent we have is amazing.

Think about Robson, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Joseph, May, Watson in the backs being fed by Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, Billy.

And when you realise how close that is to Jones' team, you realise how bad our tactics are.

[Mikey Brown]

Gloucester did see a massive improvement last season, playing extremely well and reaching the playoffs, seems pretty obvious that it was down to Heinz, as I can't think of any other player it could have been down to. Obviously such an impact had to be rewarded by at least giving them a shot, despite age and lack of previous caps.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not? Heinz was good for Gloucester last season so credit where credit’s due, but surely Cipriani was the difference in them making the top 4.

I mean this in the kindest way, but your sarcasm detector might be in need of a retune.

[Scrumhead]

I assumed it was sarcasm, but I wasn’t entirely sure.

[Oakboy]

I just hope the rfu have a break lause in Jones' contract for after the WC.

It's really sad because the talent we have is amazing.

Think about Robson, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Joseph, May, Watson in the backs being fed by Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, Billy.

And when you realise how close that is to Jones' team, you realise how bad our tactics are.

The most contentious point in your suggested team remains which shirt is occupied by Watson and Daly. I think Jones is in a minority of one for thinking that Daly should have 15. He prefers Youngs and Farrell which might be less of a debate for some. The only marginally debatable choice that I agree with him on is Slade over JJ. I'd guess that most on here prefer JJ.

Where I agree with your implications fully is that we have the players to be far better than I suspect we will be. I genuinely hope Jones proves me wrong but, if we exceed expectations, I wonder whether, yet again, it will be despite the coaching rather than because of it. Either way, the RFU should dump Jones at the earliest opportunity.

[Which Tyler]

So, can someone who watches premiership rugby more than me please explain the rationale behind Jones selecting Heinz and McConnochie for their first caps just over a month before the RWC kicks off?

I'll be honest, I've barely heard of either. Was kinda hoping Spencer and Cips would be starting this match with big Joe on the wing.

Is it likely to pay off? Are these players likely to be test quality and potential world cup bolters?

Heinz is basically Wigglesworth Jr, solid all round, not great at anything, calm, experienced head, will follow the game-plan without trying anything drastic like playing what's in front of him - to be fair, will probably make a good foil for Ford by playing off 10 rather being the play maker himself. Doesn't hit the heights of Spencer, Robson, Care; doesn't hit the lows either. Has a natural advantage of an antipodean accent.

McConnochie is a bolter. Has done really well in his first season, has yet to look uncomfortable with anything much beyond some basic positioning (as for any inexperienced winger), does a lot very well. Was in competition with Ashton and Solomon's to be the back-up in the back 3, and is a more dependable option than either whilst being no slouch at the strong suits. Is fine at FB (club level - positioning is more of an issue there) and has had a go at OC. Given another year could have been genuinely challenging Nowell for a slot, but currently that's a choice based on fitness. No worries about his temperament - he has an olympic medal after all, just lacking a little experience.
Oh, played a year or two in NZ at the beginning of is career.

I think with Slade going to Japan, taking a 3rd FH is probably surplus to requirements, so no Cips. Spencer still blows hot and cold which is always a risk, especially when the first choice is Young's who blows very hot and very cold. I understand wanting a dependable hand on the bench (but why wait so long,and why ditch Care so late in the day FFS? Did Danny screw Eddie's dog or something?)

In the back 3, with 3 warm-ups to go, and a couple of easier matches to start with...
Daly needs all the time at FB he can get if that's where he's going to play.
Watson is coming back from injury, and needs all the time he can get.
Nowell looks unlikely to be fit for Japan, so McConnochie needs all the time he can get, and a chance to sink or swim on the international XVs stage. That decision needs to be made before next week IIRC, so this may be the only chance.
Cokanasiga is going to Japan anyway, but is still a rookie, so needs all the time he can get.
May is going to Japan anyway, and has nothing to prove.

McConnochie is a genuine bolter, and there's always room to be made for one of those.
Heinz is a steady option with no-one else trusted - this is a problem made by Eddie, and to a degree Burt beforehand. No-one else has been given a genuine chance at SH in the last 8 years.
Francis is the one I don't really get - I just don't see what he offers, and quite honestly, in a small. RWC squad that will already contain Farrell and Daly, I don't think we need 4 specialist centres. My guess is that Te'o was going to play, and will still go to Japan, so Francis simply takes his place for this one match, by next weekend we're down to the travelling 31.

[Scrumhead]

Looking very much like the Aussies will beat NZ now ... even with an experimental side, we simply cannot allow Wales to go number 1 in the rankings. Surely denying them will be an extra incentive for us?

[Puja]

Looking very much like the Aussies will beat NZ now ... even with an experimental side, we simply cannot allow Wales to go number 1 in the rankings. Surely denying them will be an extra incentive for us?

Updated the title.

Puja

[Puja]

Looking very much like the Aussies will beat NZ now ... even with an experimental side, we simply cannot allow Wales to go number 1 in the rankings. Surely denying them will be an extra incentive for us?

Updated the title.

Puja

Interestingly, the final margin of the defeat means that there is now a permutation that sees us go number 1. Even if New Zealand thump Australia next week, they won't get all their ranking points back (being at home and being favourites means it's an expected result). We'd need to win both games against Wales, with the one at the Millenium being by >15 points, or just win both by any margin and then beat Ireland the next week.

Lose tomorrow and we can't reach #1 before the RWC starts. There's a motivation for you.

Puja

[Banquo]

several changes
England starting XV

15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 30 caps)
14 Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 40 caps)
12 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
11 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps) C
9 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped) VC

1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 85 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 58 caps)
5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
6 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 10 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 41 caps)

Finishers

16 Jack Singleton (Saracens, uncapped)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 59 caps)
18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps)
20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 71 caps)
21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 85 caps)
22 Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 32 caps)

[fivepointer]

"England head coach Eddie Jones has made changes to his team to play Wales tomorrow at Twickenham Stadium due to injuries.
In the backline Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby) replaces club mate Ruaridh McConnochie (hip) on the right wing while Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby) will play at outside centre instead of Henry Slade (knee).
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks) switches to openside flanker with Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints) coming in for Bath Rugby’s Sam Underhill (toe) to play on the blindside.
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) and Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers) are included as finishers"

Lose 3 players to injury in a day. Wow that really is some going.
JJ leapfrogs Marchant and starts.
We now have no back row cover on the bench.
Its all going just fine.....

[p/d]

Bound to lose one to the shits ..., probably LCD

[Puja]

"England head coach Eddie Jones has made changes to his team to play Wales tomorrow at Twickenham Stadium due to injuries.
In the backline Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby) replaces club mate Ruaridh McConnochie (hip) on the right wing while Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby) will play at outside centre instead of Henry Slade (knee).
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks) switches to openside flanker with Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints) coming in for Bath Rugby’s Sam Underhill (toe) to play on the blindside.
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) and Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers) are included as finishers"

Lose 3 players to injury in a day. Wow that really is some going.
JJ leapfrogs Marchant and starts.
We now have no back row cover on the bench.
Its all going just fine.....

So, the question is, do we believe that three players have coincidentally dropped out, two of which manifestly change the way the backline plays, or do we think Eddie's playing silly beggars?

Puja

[Scrumhead]

No point in risking anyone with niggles but it totally smacks of Eddie playing ‘silly beggars’.

[Mikey Brown]

Seems a bit pointless posting this now.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... irst-time/

It’s seems a slightly odd assessment of their strengths anyway to be honest. You’d think if you wanted one guy to hold back slightly on the breakdown, keep thumping attackers and carry a bit more you’d pick Underhill, but I don’t suppose it would make much difference what short they’re wearing.

Seems a real shame now the opportunity is there that Dombrandt isn’t getting a go at 6, but he can’t jump I guess. Keen to see what Ludlum is about though.

[Puja]

I'm actually a lot more pleased with that backline after the changes. Ford, Francis, and Joseph looks a lot more balanced and having Coka to keep the defence's eyes interested will be very useful as well. I think we could actually do very well with that selection.

Puja

[Renniks]

Shame that Lawes has made the bench not Dombrandt

Shame that the bench is missing real backrow, flyhalf, wing, and fullback cover…

[Timbo]

We shouldnt really be in a position where we are fielding so many inexperienced players this close a WC. You could forgive the odd one or two coming through late, but half the squad we're putting out tomorrow is very green in international terms.
In addition to the 5 making their first appearance, we are fielding a hooker who hasnt started a test (LCD 11 tests, all as a replacement), a centre who has started 1 test, a prop who has 4 starts, a lock with 4 starts, 2 flankers who between them have 15 starts and a winger on the bench who has started 3 games.
Experience isnt everything, but there's a very good chance that the squad we send to the WC will be uniquely short of that commodity.

You can't imagine any other top tier nation doing it can you. Oh well.

Errrr....except for Ireland....today....with a lot less caps than this England team....and players making their debuts.

Maybe Scmidt doesn’t know what he’s doing either