RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:What does Earl offer that Simmonds doesn't?

At club level, I’d say Earl offers a bit more stopping power on the gain line (that’s more of a gut feeling than anything I’ve observed too closely), and definitely gets a lot more ruck turnovers/slows ball down more.

Oakboy wrote:Ah, it's all opinion and perception. Ignoring the lumps, Billy V, Dombrandt and Hughes, I'd rank the back rowers something like:

Tom Curry, Willis, Simmonds, Underhill, Wilson, Earl, Hill, Ben Curry, Ludlam

I think Ted Hill may be the star of the class along with Tom Curry.

On a related matter I’m still confused over Mitchell and Jones’ thinking about T Curry. Openside seems a much better fit than blindside for this guy’s talents yet by all accounts his brother’s better still in this role, so taking that to its logical conclusion doesn’t B Curry deserve a full test call up by now?

Of course it was some time ago, but the ruck marks I did on Simmonds in that 6N don't appear to be that complementary. Same can be said of his carrying when it comes to the Ireland game.

Of course, that was 2 years ago, so not really applicable, but as we were using it as an example.

EDIT -

jngf wrote:On a related matter I’m still confused over Mitchell and Jones’ thinking about T Curry. Openside seems a much better fit than blindside for this guy’s talents yet by all accounts his brother’s better still in this role, so taking that to its logical conclusion doesn’t B Curry deserve a full test call up by now?

I'd guess it's about pace off the scrum more than anything, and they wanted to reduce the pens he gave away, so became more picky with rucks.

I've not checked for a while, but Tom seems far more physical than his brother, when he was starting out, he was barely physical enough, his brother was definitely not upto it. Now Tom is definitely there, but I couldn't say about his brother.

Raggs wrote:Of course it was some time ago, but the ruck marks I did on Simmonds in that 6N don't appear to be that complementary. Same can be said of his carrying when it comes to the Ireland game.

Of course, that was 2 years ago, so not really applicable, but as we were using it as an example.

EDIT -

jngf wrote:On a related matter I’m still confused over Mitchell and Jones’ thinking about T Curry. Openside seems a much better fit than blindside for this guy’s talents yet by all accounts his brother’s better still in this role, so taking that to its logical conclusion doesn’t B Curry deserve a full test call up by now?

I'd guess it's about pace off the scrum more than anything, and they wanted to reduce the pens he gave away, so became more picky with rucks.

I've not checked for a while, but Tom seems far more physical than his brother, when he was starting out, he was barely physical enough, his brother was definitely not upto it. Now Tom is definitely there, but I couldn't say about his brother.

I saw something the other day talking about the pair going for football trials, they were very impressed with Ben so wanted to see Tom too, but Tom was so shit they passed on both of them.

Not sure if/why that’s relevant. It was Ben that set up (scored?) a try with a beautiful chip last season I think.

My memory on Simmonds is clouded. I take Banquo’s point about EJ having had a look and decided against, but I think he’s still got a lot to offer. It certainly felt like as much as Simmonds, Clifford and Mercer got “found out” and dropped, we had to watch Hughes get “found out” about 20 times before it affected team selection.

Raggs wrote:Of course it was some time ago, but the ruck marks I did on Simmonds in that 6N don't appear to be that complementary. Same can be said of his carrying when it comes to the Ireland game.

Of course, that was 2 years ago, so not really applicable, but as we were using it as an example.

Simmonds was often sent to Coventry, well the wing, but they're both hard places to prove influential from

jngf wrote:On a related matter I’m still confused over Mitchell and Jones’ thinking about T Curry. Openside seems a much better fit than blindside for this guy’s talents yet by all accounts his brother’s better still in this role, so taking that to its logical conclusion doesn’t B Curry deserve a full test call up by now?

I'll try again; in phase play, they play as they always have done, irrespective of the number on their backs, to their strengths. In the set piece, as alluded to by Raggs, Eddie seems to prefer Underhills pace and weight of tackle on the openside (I have a slight concern over Tom Curry's awareness off the blindside-he seems to stay bound a fraction too long from time to time); also Curry is used as a jumper, so Underhill tail-guns, though that's by the by.

On Simmonds, I do think he is in the mix, but as pointed out, Eddie has had a good look, and dropped him once, so obviously has reservations, and again as pointed out there is a lot of talent out there, albeit with different skill mixes.

What does Earl offer that Simmonds doesn't- well we or Eddie don't really know until we see how he goes at international level, but he seems to be more physical to me at club level; and that's the other point when trying to 'rank' a hierarchy of flankers- irrespective of the fact that say Willis and Simmonds have different strengths- the Premiership doesn't tell you how they'll finally shape up in an international shirt.

The Irish squad's been announced for their opening fixture against Scotland:

Ireland: J Larmour; A Conway, G Ringrose, B Aki, J Stockdale; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Herring, T Furlong; I Henderson, J Ryan; CJ Stander, J van der Flier, C Doris.

Replacements: R Kelleher, D Kilcoyne, A Porter, D Toner, P O'Mahony, J Cooney, R Byrne, R Henshaw.

There are a couple of new names for me, Herring at hooker and Doris at 8. From what I've read, Doris appears to be very well thought of with a lot expected of him. That back line looks outstanding too, and Henshaw only makes it onto the bench.
They've got three home matches which should be wins but could they struggle at Twickenham and the Stade de France?

francoisfou wrote:The Irish squad's been announced for their opening fixture against Scotland:

Ireland: J Larmour; A Conway, G Ringrose, B Aki, J Stockdale; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Herring, T Furlong; I Henderson, J Ryan; CJ Stander, J van der Flier, C Doris.

Replacements: R Kelleher, D Kilcoyne, A Porter, D Toner, P O'Mahony, J Cooney, R Byrne, R Henshaw.

There are a couple of new names for me, Herring at hooker and Doris at 8. From what I've read, Doris appears to be very well thought of with a lot expected of him. That back line looks outstanding too, and Henshaw only makes it onto the bench.
They've got three home matches which should be wins but could they struggle at Twickenham and the Stade de France?

surprised O'Mahony is benched and Toner recalled. End of Earls at intl level?

Earls has been carrying an injury apparently.

Proof will be in the performance with Ireland. Lots of very good players, but it’s still essentially the same group that have badly underperformed for the last 12 months.

From the DT today:


The decline of the nine: Why don't England produce scrum-halves any more?
With most starting scrum-halves in the Premiership over 30, where will the next crop of English No 9s come from?
By
Daniel Schofield,
Deputy Rugby Union Correspondent
28 January 2020 • 7:07pm
Premium


There was a time when English rugby was replete with scrum halves with players like Austin Healey, Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall competing for position.
Kyran Bracken possessed one of the slickest passes of any England scrum half. It was a skill he honed by practising a minimum of 200 passes after every team training session throughout his career.
Now he is encouraging his son, Charlie, who is starting out in Saracens’ academy to replicate his model, but fears all that effort will be for nothing. “I see a lot of scrum halves who are good rugby players but their core skills are terrible,” Bracken said. “It concerns me a lot. Maybe passing is just not that important.”
Bracken played during a golden period for English scrum half play around the turn of the century with Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall and, occasionally, Austin Healey all competing with each other. Somewhere along the way, English rugby lost a generation of scrum halves....

Timbo wrote:Earls has been carrying an injury apparently.

Proof will be in the performance with Ireland. Lots of very good players, but it’s still essentially the same group that have badly underperformed for the last 12 months.

It's funny you say that. I often feel like a ton of the Irish players are quite average (in terms of specific outstanding attributes) but consistently play at maximum capacity, with an incredible amount of focus and organisation, making them a very effective team.

Hard to say how much it's underperforming or just not being able to maintain that standard for years at a time. Darren Cave made an interesting point that Ireland's USP, of their club system allowing enormous amounts of prep time, is nullified slightly come world cup time and all the teams get a decent chunk of time to get their side together.

Saying that, I'm certain Farrell is going to get some massively improved performances out of them, at least initially. Curious to see how much he mixes it up in terms of strategy.

Oakboy wrote:From the DT today:


The decline of the nine: Why don't England produce scrum-halves any more?
With most starting scrum-halves in the Premiership over 30, where will the next crop of English No 9s come from?
By
Daniel Schofield,
Deputy Rugby Union Correspondent
28 January 2020 • 7:07pm
Premium


There was a time when English rugby was replete with scrum halves with players like Austin Healey, Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall competing for position.
Kyran Bracken possessed one of the slickest passes of any England scrum half. It was a skill he honed by practising a minimum of 200 passes after every team training session throughout his career.
Now he is encouraging his son, Charlie, who is starting out in Saracens’ academy to replicate his model, but fears all that effort will be for nothing. “I see a lot of scrum halves who are good rugby players but their core skills are terrible,” Bracken said. “It concerns me a lot. Maybe passing is just not that important.”
Bracken played during a golden period for English scrum half play around the turn of the century with Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall and, occasionally, Austin Healey all competing with each other. Somewhere along the way, English rugby lost a generation of scrum halves....

I always liked Bracken better as a scrum-half than Dawson and now I find that he's a better pundit without even trying.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote:I really don't think I would want him to try.

That Sims up nicely the différence between the rosbifs and the frogs

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:From the DT today:


The decline of the nine: Why don't England produce scrum-halves any more?
With most starting scrum-halves in the Premiership over 30, where will the next crop of English No 9s come from?
By
Daniel Schofield,
Deputy Rugby Union Correspondent
28 January 2020 • 7:07pm
Premium


There was a time when English rugby was replete with scrum halves with players like Austin Healey, Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall competing for position.
Kyran Bracken possessed one of the slickest passes of any England scrum half. It was a skill he honed by practising a minimum of 200 passes after every team training session throughout his career.
Now he is encouraging his son, Charlie, who is starting out in Saracens’ academy to replicate his model, but fears all that effort will be for nothing. “I see a lot of scrum halves who are good rugby players but their core skills are terrible,” Bracken said. “It concerns me a lot. Maybe passing is just not that important.”
Bracken played during a golden period for English scrum half play around the turn of the century with Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall and, occasionally, Austin Healey all competing with each other. Somewhere along the way, English rugby lost a generation of scrum halves....

I always liked Bracken better as a scrum-half than Dawson and now I find that he's a better pundit without even trying.

Puja

I watched the game where Blair Cowan covered the SH yellow. What an absolute joy to see a SH not box-kick once! I can't get my head around the character of the current crop of FHs not demanding the ball early. Don't any of them want to take charge any more?

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

There was a time when English rugby was replete with scrum halves with players like Austin Healey, Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall competing for position.

I always liked Bracken better as a scrum-half than Dawson and now I find that he's a better pundit without even trying.

Puja

I watched the game where Blair Cowan covered the SH yellow. What an absolute joy to see a SH not box-kick once! I can't get my head around the character of the current crop of FHs not demanding the ball early. Don't any of them want to take charge any more?

Would you want to take charge if you're basically just sending your cavalry into the valley of death?

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:From the DT today:


The decline of the nine: Why don't England produce scrum-halves any more?
With most starting scrum-halves in the Premiership over 30, where will the next crop of English No 9s come from?
By
Daniel Schofield,
Deputy Rugby Union Correspondent
28 January 2020 • 7:07pm
Premium


There was a time when English rugby was replete with scrum halves with players like Austin Healey, Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall competing for position.
Kyran Bracken possessed one of the slickest passes of any England scrum half. It was a skill he honed by practising a minimum of 200 passes after every team training session throughout his career.
Now he is encouraging his son, Charlie, who is starting out in Saracens’ academy to replicate his model, but fears all that effort will be for nothing. “I see a lot of scrum halves who are good rugby players but their core skills are terrible,” Bracken said. “It concerns me a lot. Maybe passing is just not that important.”
Bracken played during a golden period for English scrum half play around the turn of the century with Matt Dawson, Andy Gomarsall and, occasionally, Austin Healey all competing with each other. Somewhere along the way, English rugby lost a generation of scrum halves....

I always liked Bracken better as a scrum-half than Dawson and now I find that he's a better pundit without even trying.

Puja

I watched the game where Blair Cowan covered the SH yellow. What an absolute joy to see a SH not box-kick once! I can't get my head around the character of the current crop of FHs not demanding the ball early. Don't any of them want to take charge any more?

Well...coaches don't want them to. The coach wants to take control by making it rugby by numbers. We're turning into RL with 15 players and it's pretty terrible.

The sooner we let players express themselves again, the better.

The poor passing by a number of 9s is not just an English thing. To me, Aaron Smith's still the best 9 in the world purely on the back of the fact that he generally has the fastest, most accurate pass. For years, loads of 'great' scrum Half's have had quite average passing games.

If I was a coach, it'd be a massive focus for any young nine (and I would want the rest of the team to be able to do it well too).

Italy have some good players but they are pretty poor as a unit. Not great viewing.

twitchy wrote:Italy have some good players but they are pretty poor as a unit. Not great viewing.

Yep a few good individuals, but no cohesion and some passengers.

How the hell did Scotland lose?

Cos they’re Scotland.

Italy are poor and show no sign of getting much better. Thats 23 defeats on the bounce. How much longer can this be tolerated?
I was frustrated by Scotland, so goodness knows what Scots think about their chronic inability to convert good positions into points.

With no half backs I just don't see where Italy go. Some positive signs but just too loose. Thing is, they'd comfortably beat Georgia or Romania, so what option is there for the tournament?

Then they'd have little to fear from a play-off