vs Georgia

[Oakboy]

Yeah he was. A solid performance.

I'm far less annoyed at the game than others here. I thought eddie set out to do a specific thing and we did it. It was glorified scum/malling practice.

Next week will be the actual test.

Yes, I understand that. Which forwards do you think Jones will pick v Ireland? There are more or less three valid choices for every position (apart from hooker?).

[loudnconfident]

I'm far less annoyed at the game than others here. I thought eddie set out to do a specific thing and we did it. It was glorified scum/malling practice.
Next week will be the actual test.

Maybe, and not to "Farrell-ise" everyone again, but why kick when there's men outside you, in space, against a team we are beating fairly comfortably? Pass outside, and even if tackled our back row will be quicker to the ruck and recycle. (And was'nt the object to tire Georgian forwards?)

The 15-minute wasted grubbere has been mentioned, but later OF kicked to the far touchline - a superb punt, but there were men outside. Why not have a bash against a lesser team?

[Scrumhead]

Yeah he was. A solid performance.

I'm far less annoyed at the game than others here. I thought eddie set out to do a specific thing and we did it. It was glorified scum/malling practice.

Next week will be the actual test.

Yes, I understand that. Which forwards do you think Jones will pick v Ireland? There are more or less three valid choices for every position (apart from hooker?).

Stuart’s emergence has made our front row options a lot more interesting and gives us a better opportunity to mix and match depending on the opposition.

We are almost at a point where we can pick two strong scrummaging props (Marler and Stuart), two props who are better in the loose (Mako and Sinckler), mix it up i.e. one of each or, as we saw yesterday, using the more ‘dynamic’ props as impact subs. Genge is a bit of an outlier (in a good way) because his improvement on the scrummaging front means he’s offering the set piece and carrying ability in the loose. If he can keep his head, he has the potential to be our best prop IMO.

I’d like to see the same front row (and replacements) for the remaining games. I think it’s definitely worth perspevering with and a relatively safe experiment, given that Ireland are without their best prop (Furlong) and possibly Healy too (I think he went off injured on Friday). Wales’ scrum is looking ropey too so, why not stick?

As for the rest of the pack, I think the biggest debates are (hopefully) who partners Itoje and which two flankers get the nod.

I’d pick Launchbury to partner Itoje, but I’d be open to giving Hill another shot. Ewels is OK, but Launchbury is significantly better and Hill has the potential to get there.

As for the flankers, Curry starts every time for me. I’d prefer to see him in tandem with Willis, with Earl on the bench but I won’t lose sleep if Underhill is picked.

Willis did well yesterday. I think the key was to show that his carrying and defence could cut it against a physical side. He definitely did that, scored a try and showed the maturity not to try to overdo it on the jackal. My only concern was that he might try to get too eager on the turnovers in an effort to impress and end up giving away penalties. He didn’t do that, so IMO, he passed the test with flying colours. At worst, he’s shown he’s worth another chance. At best, he’s given Eddie a real selection headache.

Earl has the potential to bring the best impact from the bench.

I think Billy stays at 8. With the squad we have, the only real alternatives are to shift Curry back to 8 or play Earl there. I’m not especially keen on either, but I wouldn’t be entirely against three flankers against some opponents.

[Banquo]

I can see why Jones did not want Slade at 12. His little pop pass early in the move for Daly's try showed the quality of hands that we should have at 10. It rather emphasised our FH's limitations. I'm no Ford fan but I really want him back as long as Slade stays at 12. Dreaming again . . .

Slades handling was mostly poor though. Conditions didn’t suit his handling strong suits.

I did like the way they briefly used JJ in attack. For a while now he’s been almost taking the ball standing still in midfield, but he was running onto the ball and using his pace yesterday, til that bizarre non incident injury him.

And yes on kicking the ball away many times near the line by Faz and others.

[Banquo]

Yeah he was. A solid performance.

I'm far less annoyed at the game than others here. I thought eddie set out to do a specific thing and we did it. It was glorified scum/malling practice.

Next week will be the actual test.

Yes, I understand that. Which forwards do you think Jones will pick v Ireland? There are more or less three valid choices for every position (apart from hooker?).

Stuart’s emergence has made our front row options a lot more interesting and gives us a better opportunity to mix and match depending on the opposition.

We are almost at a point where we can pick two strong scrummaging props (Marler and Stuart), two props who are better in the loose (Mako and Sinckler), mix it up i.e. one of each or, as we saw yesterday, using the more ‘dynamic’ props as impact subs. Genge is a bit of an outlier (in a good way) because his improvement on the scrummaging front means he’s offering the set piece and carrying ability in the loose. If he can keep his head, he has the potential to be our best prop IMO.

I’d like to see the same front row (and replacements) for the remaining games. I think it’s definitely worth perspevering with and a relatively safe experiment, given that Ireland are without their best prop (Furlong) and possibly Healy too (I think he went off injured on Friday). Wales’ scrum is looking ropey too so, why not stick?

As for the rest of the pack, I think the biggest debates are (hopefully) who partners Itoje and which two flankers get the nod.

I’d pick Launchbury to partner Itoje, but I’d be open to giving Hill another shot. Ewels is OK, but Launchbury is significantly better and Hill has the potential to get there.

As for the flankers, Curry starts every time for me. I’d prefer to see him in tandem with Willis, with Earl on the bench but I won’t lose sleep if Underhill is picked.

Willis did well yesterday. I think the key was to show that his carrying and defence could cut it against a physical side. He definitely did that, scored a try and showed the maturity not to try to overdo it on the jackal. My only concern was that he might try to get too eager on the turnovers in an effort to impress and end up giving away penalties. He didn’t do that, so IMO, he passed the test with flying colours. At worst, he’s shown he’s worth another chance. At best, he’s given Eddie a real selection headache.

Earl has the potential to bring the best impact from the bench.

I think Billy stays at 8. With the squad we have, the only real alternatives are to shift Curry back to 8 or play Earl there. I’m not especially keen on either, but I wouldn’t be entirely against three flankers against some opponents.

Itoje and Launchbury can’t play together- Fact

Not sure what the downers on Billy are for tbh. He gave us good go forward from the base, put in a decent defensive shift and his handling was more reliable than other days. If anything he looked a bit lighter to me.

[Oakboy]

I'd always start Marler with Mako on the bench. For similar reasons, I might now prefer Stuart starting and Sinckler benching. George and Dunn obviously.

Launchbury showed yesterday why he should start with Itoje but Hill is a better lineout man.

In the back row, I just cannot shift my opinion that Curry and Willis are the best flankers. Billy?? I thought Jones missed a trick not trying Earl at 8 when he came on. I'd still pick Simmonds.

[Banquo]

I'd always start Marler with Mako on the bench. For similar reasons, I might now prefer Stuart starting and Sinckler benching. George and Dunn obviously.

Launchbury showed yesterday why he should start with Itoje but Hill is a better lineout man.

In the back row, I just cannot shift my opinion that Curry and Willis are the best flankers. Billy?? I thought Jones missed a trick not trying Earl at 8 when he came on. I'd still pick Simmonds.

Been handy to see Curry and Willis together to test that theory.

I’d play Itoje and Launchbury together, no reason not to.

[Banquo]

I'd always start Marler with Mako on the bench. For similar reasons, I might now prefer Stuart starting and Sinckler benching. George and Dunn obviously.

Launchbury showed yesterday why he should start with Itoje but Hill is a better lineout man.

In the back row, I just cannot shift my opinion that Curry and Willis are the best flankers. Billy?? I thought Jones missed a trick not trying Earl at 8 when he came on. I'd still pick Simmonds.

You start Marler and Stuart and you lose a lot in carrying and handling.

[Beasties]

Maybe in Marler's case but Stuart is a very effective heavy carrier.

[Banquo]

Maybe in Marler's case but Stuart is a very effective heavy carrier.

Need to see that internationally and also his handling. I wouldn’t say he is close to Sinckler yet in the loose, so you’d still be losing. I like him though, really stepped up. Just think Mako and Sinckler remain starters at present.

[Puja]

Itoje and Launchbury can’t play together- Fact

Not sure what the downers on Billy are for tbh. He gave us good go forward from the base, put in a decent defensive shift and his handling was more reliable than other days. If anything he looked a bit lighter to me.

I still don't think it works - you're doubling down on their strengths and leaving their weaknesses open. But we'll see whether Eddie tries it against Ireland - I suspect we'll see Hill back.

Good go forward from Billy?! Were we watching the same game? He made sod all impact from the base and twice got hit backward behind the majority of his pack. His 8 picks from the sequence of early 5m scrums were embarrassing. He looked hesitant in the carry - trying to step rather than power.

His defensive shift was good, but I'm not willing to forgive the almost red card. You can call it exquisitely well judged, but I'm seeing a tackle where he has no control and, if the ball carrier drops his shoulder an inch, Billy's got an early bath and a 4 week ban for something that was entirely unnecessary.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Maybe in Marler's case but Stuart is a very effective heavy carrier.

Need to see that internationally and also his handling. I wouldn’t say he is close to Sinckler yet in the loose, so you’d still be losing. I like him though, really stepped up. Just think Mako and Sinckler remain starters at present.

Depends what you mean by ‘effective in the loose’. I wouldn’t want Stuart attempting a no-look pop pass like Sinckler, but from a carrying POV, I think he is significantly better. It’s fair to say we haven’t seen that at test level yet, but yesterday was only his first start.

I agree that starting Marler and Stuart together is a bit limited from an attacking POV, which is why I’d look at Genge as an ideal compromise. While he’s not quite at Marler’s level at the set piece, he’s steadily improving and is already a fair bit better than Mako. He’s also improved his awareness in the loose as well. There was one passage of play where he put in a nice pop pass he probably wouldn’t have attempted a year ago.

[Banquo]

Itoje and Launchbury can’t play together- Fact

Not sure what the downers on Billy are for tbh. He gave us good go forward from the base, put in a decent defensive shift and his handling was more reliable than other days. If anything he looked a bit lighter to me.

I still don't think it works - you're doubling down on their strengths and leaving their weaknesses open. But we'll see whether Eddie tries it against Ireland - I suspect we'll see Hill back.

Good go forward from Billy?! Were we watching the same game? He made sod all impact from the base and twice got hit backward behind the majority of his pack. His 8 picks from the sequence of early 5m scrums were embarrassing. He looked hesitant in the carry - trying to step rather than power.

His defensive shift was good, but I'm not willing to forgive the almost red card. You can call it exquisitely well judged, but I'm seeing a tackle where he has no control and, if the ball carrier drops his shoulder an inch, Billy's got an early bath and a 4 week ban for something that was entirely unnecessary.

Puja

You are doubling down on a redundant argument as intended.

Yes, billy broke several times from the base, getting over the gainline comfortably at least three times, notably once in a perfect exit strategy. He was knocked back twice, unsurprisingly given the difficulties in timing in the conditions and the amount of carrying he was doing. Just feels like because he’s not quite the player he was- and he’s heavily marked- folks don’t give him credit. His handling was good too.

And lol on the ‘nearly a bad tackle but actually a good one’ argument.

[Banquo]

Maybe in Marler's case but Stuart is a very effective heavy carrier.

Need to see that internationally and also his handling. I wouldn’t say he is close to Sinckler yet in the loose, so you’d still be losing. I like him though, really stepped up. Just think Mako and Sinckler remain starters at present.

Depends what you mean by ‘effective in the loose’. I wouldn’t want Stuart attempting a no-look pop pass like Sinckler, but from a carrying POV, I think he is significantly better. It’s fair to say we haven’t seen that at test level yet, but yesterday was only his first start.

I agree that starting Marler and Stuart together is a bit limited from an attacking POV, which is why I’d look at Genge as an ideal compromise. While he’s not quite at Marler’s level at the set piece, he’s steadily improving and is already a fair bit better than Mako. He’s also improved his awareness in the loose as well. There was one passage of play where he put in a nice pop pass he probably wouldn’t have attempted a year ago.

No we haven’t seen it at test level yet. Which was my point really. On what basis are you asserting Stuart is ‘significantly better’? That’s going some, as Sinckler is a decent carrier.

[Digby]

Sinckler does seem to be getting marked down for his carrying because he can also pass. That said if there's a contention here Sincks is better carrying with a little pace looking to break the line and Stuart is better going into contact and getting a leg drive there might be something in that.

Very happy with Stuart so far, he's looking an upgrade on Williams as backup to Sinckler

[Banquo]

Sinckler does seem to be getting marked down for his carrying because he can also pass. That said if there's a contention here Sincks is better carrying with a little pace looking to break the line and Stuart is better going into contact and getting a leg drive there might be something in that.

Very happy with Stuart so far, he's looking an upgrade on Williams as backup to Sinckler

Yep that’s fair, though whether Stuart can make the same headway against better intl opponents remains a question. I also don’t think Williams is a poor option.

[Raggs]

Sinckler as an individual carrier isn't that powerful for me, it's the threat of the pass that helps him. And sometimes that's just not on. However the sheer lunacy of his workrate would have me keep him ahead of Stuart without worries, though I'd begin to feelconfident to tell him to empty the tank come the 2nd half.

[Beasties]

So given where we are now who'd want to go back to having Sinck and then Cole/Williams?

[Banquo]

So given where we are now who'd want to go back to having Sinck and then Cole/Williams?

No one. Next

[fivepointer]

I'm very happy with Sink and Stuart and i'm just as happy to have a prop as good as Williams as 3rd choice.

[Banquo]

I'm very happy with Sink and Stuart and i'm just as happy to have a prop as good as Williams as 3rd choice.

Yep.

[Puja]

Itoje and Launchbury can’t play together- Fact

Not sure what the downers on Billy are for tbh. He gave us good go forward from the base, put in a decent defensive shift and his handling was more reliable than other days. If anything he looked a bit lighter to me.

I still don't think it works - you're doubling down on their strengths and leaving their weaknesses open. But we'll see whether Eddie tries it against Ireland - I suspect we'll see Hill back.

Good go forward from Billy?! Were we watching the same game? He made sod all impact from the base and twice got hit backward behind the majority of his pack. His 8 picks from the sequence of early 5m scrums were embarrassing. He looked hesitant in the carry - trying to step rather than power.

His defensive shift was good, but I'm not willing to forgive the almost red card. You can call it exquisitely well judged, but I'm seeing a tackle where he has no control and, if the ball carrier drops his shoulder an inch, Billy's got an early bath and a 4 week ban for something that was entirely unnecessary.

Puja

You are doubling down on a redundant argument as intended.

Yes, billy broke several times from the base, getting over the gainline comfortably at least three times, notably once in a perfect exit strategy. He was knocked back twice, unsurprisingly given the difficulties in timing in the conditions and the amount of carrying he was doing. Just feels like because he’s not quite the player he was- and he’s heavily marked- folks don’t give him credit. His handling was good too.

And lol on the ‘nearly a bad tackle but actually a good one’ argument.

I don't get the lol - he's not in control and a slight movement from the opposition sees him red carded. It's not a good tackle; it's a lucky tackle. Functionally no different from Farrell on the young Wasps 10, except Billy's oppo didn't dip at all.

It's reckless and poor play to throw himself in like that given the penalties nowadays. And entirely unnecessary considering he had him lined up and could've delivered just as dominant a hit a foot lower.

Puja

[jngf]

Yeah he was. A solid performance.

I'm far less annoyed at the game than others here. I thought eddie set out to do a specific thing and we did it. It was glorified scum/malling practice.

Next week will be the actual test.

Yes, I understand that. Which forwards do you think Jones will pick v Ireland? There are more or less three valid choices for every position (apart from hooker?).

Stuart’s emergence has made our front row options a lot more interesting and gives us a better opportunity to mix and match depending on the opposition.

We are almost at a point where we can pick two strong scrummaging props (Marler and Stuart), two props who are better in the loose (Mako and Sinckler), mix it up i.e. one of each or, as we saw yesterday, using the more ‘dynamic’ props as impact subs. Genge is a bit of an outlier (in a good way) because his improvement on the scrummaging front means he’s offering the set piece and carrying ability in the loose. If he can keep his head, he has the potential to be our best prop IMO.

I’d like to see the same front row (and replacements) for the remaining games. I think it’s definitely worth perspevering with and a relatively safe experiment, given that Ireland are without their best prop (Furlong) and possibly Healy too (I think he went off injured on Friday). Wales’ scrum is looking ropey too so, why not stick?

As for the rest of the pack, I think the biggest debates are (hopefully) who partners Itoje and which two flankers get the nod.

I’d pick Launchbury to partner Itoje, but I’d be open to giving Hill another shot. Ewels is OK, but Launchbury is significantly better and Hill has the potential to get there.

As for the flankers, Curry starts every time for me. I’d prefer to see him in tandem with Willis, with Earl on the bench but I won’t lose sleep if Underhill is picked.

Willis did well yesterday. I think the key was to show that his carrying and defence could cut it against a physical side. He definitely did that, scored a try and showed the maturity not to try to overdo it on the jackal. My only concern was that he might try to get too eager on the turnovers in an effort to impress and end up giving away penalties. He didn’t do that, so IMO, he passed the test with flying colours. At worst, he’s shown he’s worth another chance. At best, he’s given Eddie a real selection headache.

Earl has the potential to bring the best impact from the bench.

I think Billy stays at 8. With the squad we have, the only real alternatives are to shift Curry back to 8 or play Earl there. I’m not especially keen on either, but I wouldn’t be entirely against three flankers against some opponents.

Why is it a given that Curry starts every time? If we’re talking about the 6 role, it would seem Willis can do everything that Curry can but in a more powerful package. The pre RWC 2019 version of Curry when he was starting to show some great interlinking skills had built up a good case to start at openside but I’m not sure he’s that type of player anymore thanks to Eddy and Mitchell’s “career guidance”

[Timbo]

Itoje and Launchbury can’t play together- Fact

Not sure what the downers on Billy are for tbh. He gave us good go forward from the base, put in a decent defensive shift and his handling was more reliable than other days. If anything he looked a bit lighter to me.

I still don't think it works - you're doubling down on their strengths and leaving their weaknesses open. But we'll see whether Eddie tries it against Ireland - I suspect we'll see Hill back.

Good go forward from Billy?! Were we watching the same game? He made sod all impact from the base and twice got hit backward behind the majority of his pack. His 8 picks from the sequence of early 5m scrums were embarrassing. He looked hesitant in the carry - trying to step rather than power.

His defensive shift was good, but I'm not willing to forgive the almost red card. You can call it exquisitely well judged, but I'm seeing a tackle where he has no control and, if the ball carrier drops his shoulder an inch, Billy's got an early bath and a 4 week ban for something that was entirely unnecessary.

Puja

You are doubling down on a redundant argument as intended.

Yes, billy broke several times from the base, getting over the gainline comfortably at least three times, notably once in a perfect exit strategy. He was knocked back twice, unsurprisingly given the difficulties in timing in the conditions and the amount of carrying he was doing. Just feels like because he’s not quite the player he was- and he’s heavily marked- folks don’t give him credit. His handling was good too.

And lol on the ‘nearly a bad tackle but actually a good one’ argument.

Agreed on Billy. Thought he played well and put in a big shift. Thought the pack fronted up nicely, hard to find much fault with any of them really. Does feel a little like expectation of what Billy should be doing has become a bit unreasonable tbh, especially when you consider what tough graft his job is.

Also, was an excellent physically dominant tackle. He could have got it wrong, but he didn’t. Billy’s disciplinary record in this regard more Th an gives him the benefit of any doubt.

[jngf]

On a different tack I’d like to see Billy rested for a game and Dombrandt bought in, he may not be quite the big unit Billy is but a helluva lot quicker and more athletic so at the very least worth a look at?