francoisfou wrote:
Bravo, 5p, for looking for positives when there was precious little to get excited about. For me, that was a relegation scrap.
So England win 0-33, France beat basically the same team 37-10, (France handed an interception try), yet todays was a "relegation Battle"? Can you explain the logic in that?
Gladly. The winning margins may be similar, but that’s where the similarities end. The error count today was unacceptable at this level with a general lack of cohesion. I don’t know why but with the player resources at Eddie’s disposal, I have always expected England to achieve more, and after watching today’s game I’m convinced that a new broom is needed to help England realise their true potential. The French Federation appointed Raphaël Ibañez and Fabien Galthié to bring about the changes desperately needed on this side of the Channel, and it’s already paying dividends and I firmly believe the RFU should act now, but it’s probably already too late with the World Cup approaching swiftly.
We're miles off where the French are. Galthie has done a great job and France must be favourites for the WC. As noted above they have a squad of great talent, easily the best in the 6N's.
The RFU wont ditch Jones before the WC unless we lose our next 3 games and get hammered in Australia in the summer.
I think he's safe, but goodness we need to see some real development over the remaining 6N fixtures.
Mikey Brown wrote:Doesn’t sound like I missed a lot. Just the 5 min highlights then or is there something to be gleaned from the extended/full version?
Somebody saying “please Italy don’t let us nill you” earlier in the thread got a proper laugh. It’s that sort of sentiment I’ve felt a lot in recent times watching England.
Reading through the list of errors in this thread, without having seen the game, it feels like I’ve watched this exact game a dozen times before. Like it’s great that Jones has plans for all these different scenarios but half the time it feels like the players are hesitating and trying to remember what they’ve been told is the correct move rather than just playing what is in front of them.
What happened to Nowell?
Pretty good summary
Nowell failed an HIA about 15(?)mins in. Daly came on amd showed everyone why he shouldn't be at FB/13, by playing pretty well on the wing
Surprised he didn’t take that chance to shuffle things and put Marchant back on the wing, but yeah Daly looking class in the only position he’s ever looked full convincing is good, but unsurprising.
Re Malins not being a wing/fullback - Is he actually a 10 though either? Feel like he may be a bit like Slade in being very skillful but not necessarily commanding?
There was no positional deception this time, as there was in 2017. That year, England racked up four victories to defend their Six Nations title successfully. Throughout the tournament, Maro Itoje wore No 6 but slipped to the second row for scrums.
On a mild Sunday afternoon in Rome, the 27 year-old bound on as a conventional blindside flanker from set-pieces for the first 55 minutes before returning to lock when Sam Simmonds replaced Nick Isiekwe. He even modelled a new look, as if to emphasise his different role.
Itoje kept his socks down and dispensed with his scrum cap to face Italy. Interestingly enough, he called for the headgear upon moving up into the second row, not unlike a batter reacting to the introduction of quicker bowling from both ends.
Three days earlier, Eddie Jones had presented the selection which deployed Itoje behind a locking duo of Isiekwe and Charlie Ewels as a development opportunity. “We want to get more carrying out of Maro,” said the England head coach.
Such a viewpoint chimed with the players’ own wishes. Last month, Itoje offered a self-aware sound-bite to Telegraph Sport. “Defensive collisions have probably been one of the highlights of my game,” he conceded. “But there is so much growth on the attacking side.”
Shifting one of the world’s best locks away from his regular position remains difficult to fathom for many. There is logic there, though. With three specialist second-rowers on the field, England’s lineout produced a sturdy attacking platform, as it had done against Georgia in 2020 on the last occasion that Itoje started a Test match at six. They also used it to strangle their opponents. As early as the third minute, Ewels, Itoje and Isiekwe combined to force a maul turnover on the edge of their own 22. The rangy trio worked well together from restarts, too. With one, often Ewels, rising to gather, they would establish mauls to eke out easy metres.
Itoje defended tirelessly and disruptively, as ever. One of his final acts as a blindside flanker was to strip the ball from Sebastian Negri in trademark fashion. However, his peripheral attacking output summed up a stuttering England display in that facet of the game. Consistently dynamic carrying, like that of the immense Springbok Eben Etzebeth, would elevate Itoje to another level. At the moment, though, such running remains a work in progress for Itoje.
The hope had been that he would cause dents, generating front-foot ball that would free up Alex Dombrandt to roam around the Stadio Olimpico. Instead, without a gain-line threat in the backline following Jack Nowell’s early withdrawal, England were reliant on first-phase moves or moments of individual magic in broken field. They grew frantic and forced offloads over a largely frustrating game.
Jones has stressed that the new methods being bedded by attack coach Martin Gleeson do not conform to a definitive structure in the same way, for instance, that Japan wowed everyone at the 2019 World Cup. But clarity, cohesion and a balanced team are prerequisites for any sort of fluency.
Ellis Genge was evidently earmarked as a keynote carrier in midfield, bolstering the centre partnership of Henry Slade and Joe Marchant. That did come off nicely to launch the passage that eventually brought about Marcus Smith’s opening try. Genge ploughed ahead following a shortened lineout. On the following phase, Smith swept the ball behind Dombrandt to Slade and Nowell was released by a slick cut-out pass. England stayed patient and eventually Smith crossed the line via some neat interplay with Max Malins.
Itoje made one powerful foray up the middle in the 34th minute, taking the ball from Marchant before slipping past Marco Zanon and surging around 10 metres beyond the tackle of Paolo Garbisi. Other than that, and an opportunistic yet ultimately disallowed pick-and-go, he was fairly quiet while England were in possession.
As well as the imposing figure of André Esterhuizen, Dombrandt usually starts alongside either Tom Lawday or James Chisholm in the Harlequins back row. Both are tenacious attackers that allow him to pick his contributions more selectively. Indeed, what confuses supporters is that there are back-row carriers that Jones could turn to, even if Billy Vunipola has been cast aside for now and it may be too late for Dave Ewers of Exeter Chiefs.
Ollie Chessum was introduced at the end. Ted Hill won his single cap in 2018. Although including Alfie Barbeary might compromise the lineout, he scored twice for Wasps on Saturday and is a special tackle-breaker. As England ponder the ingredients to make their attack click, the 21 year-old must be coming close to a call-up.
oldbackrow wrote:
So England win 0-33, France beat basically the same team 37-10, (France handed an interception try), yet todays was a "relegation Battle"? Can you explain the logic in that?
Gladly. The winning margins may be similar, but that’s where the similarities end. The error count today was unacceptable at this level with a general lack of cohesion. I don’t know why but with the player resources at Eddie’s disposal, I have always expected England to achieve more, and after watching today’s game I’m convinced that a new broom is needed to help England realise their true potential. The French Federation appointed Raphaël Ibañez and Fabien Galthié to bring about the changes desperately needed on this side of the Channel, and it’s already paying dividends and I firmly believe the RFU should act now, but it’s probably already too late with the World Cup approaching swiftly.
We're miles off where the French are. Galthie has done a great job and France must be favourites for the WC. As noted above they have a squad of great talent, easily the best in the 6N's.
The RFU wont ditch Jones before the WC unless we lose our next 3 games and get hammered in Australia in the summer.
I think he's safe, but goodness we need to see some real development over the remaining 6N fixtures.
I think he's panicking. He's handing out caps and recalls like candy after realising he'd stuck with certain players for too long. In the last year (bound to have missed some and I have tried to miss out the Summer tests because Lions):
Rodd
Blamire
Dolly
Davison
Isiekwe
Chessum
Ludlow
Dombrandt
Simmonds
Randall
Quirke
Smith
Ford (unarguable given his form + no Farrell, but still a recall)
Atkinson
Marchant
Radwan
Steward
Understandable in some parts because of injury, or players that simply couldn't be (or continue to be) ignored, but a fair chunk there should have been getting gametime 1-2 years ago when the players they are now displacing were badly out of form, some of whom (guess who) are still starting important games and continuing to be gash.
Mikey Brown wrote:Doesn’t sound like I missed a lot. Just the 5 min highlights then or is there something to be gleaned from the extended/full version?
Somebody saying “please Italy don’t let us nill you” earlier in the thread got a proper laugh. It’s that sort of sentiment I’ve felt a lot in recent times watching England.
Reading through the list of errors in this thread, without having seen the game, it feels like I’ve watched this exact game a dozen times before. Like it’s great that Jones has plans for all these different scenarios but half the time it feels like the players are hesitating and trying to remember what they’ve been told is the correct move rather than just playing what is in front of them.
What happened to Nowell?
Pretty good summary
Nowell failed an HIA about 15(?)mins in. Daly came on amd showed everyone why he shouldn't be at FB/13, by playing pretty well on the wing
Surprised he didn’t take that chance to shuffle things and put Marchant back on the wing, but yeah Daly looking class in the only position he’s ever looked full convincing is good, but unsurprising.
Re Malins not being a wing/fullback - Is he actually a 10 though either? Feel like he may be a bit like Slade in being very skillful but not necessarily commanding?
I always thought and still do, that 10 was the place. But little game time there.
That article is a bit harsh on Chessum, I thought he looked good at lineout time as his tenacity in the kick chase effectively set up the last try. Couple if decent tackles as well, promising debut for the squad apprentice.
England's problem was the error count. Italy didn't turn up and England should have had 50.
Dombrandt was a menace in defence but I wanted more of his trademark carries. Definitely deserves the start Vs Wales.
Randall played as expected, great in attack but no game management.
Smith grew into the game and after an awkward first 10 mins delivered how we'd have liked. Centre combo didn't quite click, I'd have liked some more options offered to Smith, if you've got a creative force at 10 use it. Steward marauded forward from the back effectively but didn't seem to be on the same wavelength as anyone else bar Malins so missed some offload opportunities.
.
Enjoyed the Smith and Ford interplay. Can see that being a chase the game move in future weeks
FKAS wrote:That article is a bit harsh on Chessum, I thought he looked good at lineout time as his tenacity in the kick chase effectively set up the last try. Couple if decent tackles as well, promising debut for the squad apprentice.
England's problem was the error count. Italy didn't turn up and England should have had 50.
Dombrandt was a menace in defence but I wanted more of his trademark carries. Definitely deserves the start Vs Wales.
Randall played as expected, great in attack but no game management.
Smith grew into the game and after an awkward first 10 mins delivered how we'd have liked. Centre combo didn't quite click, I'd have liked some more options offered to Smith, if you've got a creative force at 10 use it. Steward marauded forward from the back effectively but didn't seem to be on the same wavelength as anyone else bar Malins so missed some offload opportunities.
.
Enjoyed the Smith and Ford interplay. Can see that being a chase the game move in future weeks
Yep, except that the Smith and Ford combo isn’t really viable when the oppo have the ball. Steward does need to link better, but maybe not all down to him.
FKAS wrote:That article is a bit harsh on Chessum, I thought he looked good at lineout time as his tenacity in the kick chase effectively set up the last try. Couple if decent tackles as well, promising debut for the squad apprentice.
England's problem was the error count. Italy didn't turn up and England should have had 50.
Dombrandt was a menace in defence but I wanted more of his trademark carries. Definitely deserves the start Vs Wales.
Randall played as expected, great in attack but no game management.
Smith grew into the game and after an awkward first 10 mins delivered how we'd have liked. Centre combo didn't quite click, I'd have liked some more options offered to Smith, if you've got a creative force at 10 use it. Steward marauded forward from the back effectively but didn't seem to be on the same wavelength as anyone else bar Malins so missed some offload opportunities.
.
Enjoyed the Smith and Ford interplay. Can see that being a chase the game move in future weeks
Yep, except that the Smith and Ford combo isn’t really viable when the oppo have the ball. Steward does need to link better, but maybe not all down to him.
I think as Steward and the other players get used to the running lines of each other then it'll come. I don't mind the safety first approach, winging over optimistic offloads doesn't tend to end well at international level.
Ford and Smith would be targeted defensively but as I said if you're chasing the game then the risk/reward dynamic changes. The back line was considerably more dangerous with them working off each other than Slade working off Smith. If we're behind Vs Wales with between 10-15 to go we might roll the dice with that combination again.
FKAS wrote:That article is a bit harsh on Chessum, I thought he looked good at lineout time as his tenacity in the kick chase effectively set up the last try. Couple if decent tackles as well, promising debut for the squad apprentice.
England's problem was the error count. Italy didn't turn up and England should have had 50.
Dombrandt was a menace in defence but I wanted more of his trademark carries. Definitely deserves the start Vs Wales.
Randall played as expected, great in attack but no game management.
Smith grew into the game and after an awkward first 10 mins delivered how we'd have liked. Centre combo didn't quite click, I'd have liked some more options offered to Smith, if you've got a creative force at 10 use it. Steward marauded forward from the back effectively but didn't seem to be on the same wavelength as anyone else bar Malins so missed some offload opportunities.
.
Enjoyed the Smith and Ford interplay. Can see that being a chase the game move in future weeks
Yep, except that the Smith and Ford combo isn’t really viable when the oppo have the ball. Steward does need to link better, but maybe not all down to him.
I think as Steward and the other players get used to the running lines of each other then it'll come. I don't mind the safety first approach, winging over optimistic offloads doesn't tend to end well at international level.
Ford and Smith would be targeted defensively but as I said if you're chasing the game then the risk/reward dynamic changes. The back line was considerably more dangerous with them working off each other than Slade working off Smith. If we're behind Vs Wales with between 10-15 to go we might roll the dice with that combination again.
Randall was a breath of fresh air. Keen, alert, defensively sharp and fully committed. He was far from flawless, but I’d take that.
Thought Itoje fell off quite a few tackles when operating as a 6, but every bit one of our key players when back at lock.
Was impressed with Chessum, looked at home.
Smith is just a joy (and yes he made mistakes), with and without the ball. Not comfortable that Marchant is the right man for the job and would like to see Slade back at 13 with Steward tried at 12 (ducks for cover), Malins at 15 and Nowell plus Daly/flier on wing.
p/d wrote:Randall was a breath of fresh air. Keen, alert, defensively sharp and fully committed. He was far from flawless, but I’d take that.
Thought Itoje fell off quite a few tackles when operating as a 6, but every bit one of our key players when back at lock.
Was impressed with Chessum, looked at home.
Smith is just a joy (and yes he made mistakes), with and without the ball. Not comfortable that Marchant is the right man for the job and would like to see Slade back at 13 with Steward tried at 12 (ducks for cover), Malins at 15 and Nowell plus Daly/flier on wing.
If match fit Launch or Lawes back in with Itoje
You're not the first to suggest it (Sir Clive has toured him as the long term answer) and he did play 13 in the BUCS league. My only issue with it would be that his main strength is his ability to come onto the ball at speed and then swerve and power through the defence. He's a big lad with a long stride, his footwork probably isn't sharp enough and he's not finished filling out yet so putting him into that unfamiliar position might be premature. It could possibly work in a couple of years time.
We've got a short term stop gap in Atkinson ready to go if we want a big 12 or we can call up Kelly who's in good form in the Prem. Young Ojomoh is probably a summer tour cap.
I agree it is probably not a good move for the player. Would be happy if he called up Kelly but looks to me it will be Manu back (if fit) or more of the same
p/d wrote:Randall was a breath of fresh air. Keen, alert, defensively sharp and fully committed. He was far from flawless, but I’d take that.
Thought Itoje fell off quite a few tackles when operating as a 6, but every bit one of our key players when back at lock.
Was impressed with Chessum, looked at home.
Smith is just a joy (and yes he made mistakes), with and without the ball. Not comfortable that Marchant is the right man for the job and would like to see Slade back at 13 with Steward tried at 12 (ducks for cover), Malins at 15 and Nowell plus Daly/flier on wing.
If match fit Launch or Lawes back in with Itoje
The trouble is that Slade and Marchant had three quarters of a game together v SA and then Jones did the wacky bit with Daly against Scotland to confuse things. I much prefer Slade at 12 to Farrell. I'd stick with Slade and Marchant and back the pairing to come good. With all the centre pairings tried and discarded it must be worth sticking with them for the 6N if for no other reason than to give Smith a consistent duo to get used to.
I ought to back Randall for the same period, I suppose, but I think Quirke is a better bet.
p/d wrote:Randall was a breath of fresh air. Keen, alert, defensively sharp and fully committed. He was far from flawless, but I’d take that.
Thought Itoje fell off quite a few tackles when operating as a 6, but every bit one of our key players when back at lock.
Was impressed with Chessum, looked at home.
Smith is just a joy (and yes he made mistakes), with and without the ball. Not comfortable that Marchant is the right man for the job and would like to see Slade back at 13 with Steward tried at 12 (ducks for cover), Malins at 15 and Nowell plus Daly/flier on wing.
If match fit Launch or Lawes back in with Itoje
The trouble is that Slade and Marchant had three quarters of a game together v SA and then Jones did the wacky bit with Daly against Scotland to confuse things. I much prefer Slade at 12 to Farrell. I'd stick with Slade and Marchant and back the pairing to come good. With all the centre pairings tried and discarded it must be worth sticking with them for the 6N if for no other reason than to give Smith a consistent duo to get used to.
I ought to back Randall for the same period, I suppose, but I think Quirke is a better bet.
Blimey O’Reilly! I agreed with jngf and now I’m agreeing with Oakboy. Something strange is going on …
In all seriousness, I was going to post more or less the same thing so Oakboy saved me the effort.
I think Quirke and Randall as a 9/21 combination could be very effective. Quirke seems to be more tactically astute with a better core game, whilst Randall has the skill set to be a very effective impact sub.
I agree it is probably not a good move for the player. Would be happy if he called up Kelly but looks to me it will be Manu back (if fit) or more of the same
Ah yes, a mad positional switch removing a newly found position of strength at fullback, and a chance to emulate Uncle Gats’s masterstroke moving Roberts from 15 to 12. Horrible idea. I can see Jones going for it.
But what of Faz? Stick him at 15? He can use his searing pace (and their telepathic relationship) to link up with Ford in the 13 channel maybe.
I’ve not seen anyone else really mention him, but Genge was really good today, on top of a very tidy game last week. Would have been my man of the match. Carried hard, tackled hard, scrummed well, set up a try with a dream pass…and some of his clear outs were absolutely brutal. Feel like he’s in the process of taking his game to a new level.
FKAS wrote:That article is a bit harsh on Chessum, I thought he looked good at lineout time as his tenacity in the kick chase effectively set up the last try. Couple if decent tackles as well, promising debut for the squad apprentice.
England's problem was the error count. Italy didn't turn up and England should have had 50.
Dombrandt was a menace in defence but I wanted more of his trademark carries. Definitely deserves the start Vs Wales.
Randall played as expected, great in attack but no game management.
Smith grew into the game and after an awkward first 10 mins delivered how we'd have liked. Centre combo didn't quite click, I'd have liked some more options offered to Smith, if you've got a creative force at 10 use it. Steward marauded forward from the back effectively but didn't seem to be on the same wavelength as anyone else bar Malins so missed some offload opportunities.
.
Enjoyed the Smith and Ford interplay. Can see that being a chase the game move in future weeks
Yep, except that the Smith and Ford combo isn’t really viable when the oppo have the ball. Steward does need to link better, but maybe not all down to him.
I think as Steward and the other players get used to the running lines of each other then it'll come. I don't mind the safety first approach, winging over optimistic offloads doesn't tend to end well at international level.
Ford and Smith would be targeted defensively but as I said if you're chasing the game then the risk/reward dynamic changes. The back line was considerably more dangerous with them working off each other than Slade working off Smith. If we're behind Vs Wales with between 10-15 to go we might roll the dice with that combination again.
Maybe on Steward, but he didnt need to be outrageous to link today...
Big leap to put either smith or ford at 12 regularly based on a couple of nice bits in attack v a tired Italy; I'd think the risk would outweigh any reward unless way behind. Did you not spot Slade acting as 1st receiver with Smith running off him- worked well I thought tbh., some nice run arounds. Still looked a bit unthreatening n midfield overall.
p/d wrote:Randall was a breath of fresh air. Keen, alert, defensively sharp and fully committed. He was far from flawless, but I’d take that.
Thought Itoje fell off quite a few tackles when operating as a 6, but every bit one of our key players when back at lock.
Was impressed with Chessum, looked at home.
Smith is just a joy (and yes he made mistakes), with and without the ball. Not comfortable that Marchant is the right man for the job and would like to see Slade back at 13 with Steward tried at 12 (ducks for cover), Malins at 15 and Nowell plus Daly/flier on wing.
If match fit Launch or Lawes back in with Itoje
You're not the first to suggest it (Sir Clive has toured him as the long term answer) and he did play 13 in the BUCS league. My only issue with it would be that his main strength is his ability to come onto the ball at speed and then swerve and power through the defence. He's a big lad with a long stride, his footwork probably isn't sharp enough and he's not finished filling out yet so putting him into that unfamiliar position might be premature. It could possibly work in a couple of years time.
We've got a short term stop gap in Atkinson ready to go if we want a big 12 or we can call up Kelly who's in good form in the Prem. Young Ojomoh is probably a summer tour cap.
'might be premature`??
Not sure what the issue with Slade at 12 is tbh....he was feted there vSA....two games ago. Sure I'd prefer a runner there, but there isnt a convincing option, and he and Smith are starting to gel.
Last edited by Banquo on Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Timbo wrote:I’ve not seen anyone else really mention him, but Genge was really good today, on top of a very tidy game last week. Would have been my man of the match. Carried hard, tackled hard, scrummed well, set up a try with a dream pass…and some of his clear outs were absolutely brutal. Feel like he’s in the process of taking his game to a new level.
I misread that as George, who did play well. Genges ruck work may have been brutal but a lot was inaccurate and he lacked composure with the ball early on for me. Think sometimes needs to take a breath and calm it- tricky balance tbf
I hope someone does a rewatch. I thought Slade was quiet and very much like Farrell at 12 but I could be wrong. Marchant also seemed to only be involved sporadically.
Banquo wrote:
Yep, except that the Smith and Ford combo isn’t really viable when the oppo have the ball. Steward does need to link better, but maybe not all down to him.
I think as Steward and the other players get used to the running lines of each other then it'll come. I don't mind the safety first approach, winging over optimistic offloads doesn't tend to end well at international level.
Ford and Smith would be targeted defensively but as I said if you're chasing the game then the risk/reward dynamic changes. The back line was considerably more dangerous with them working off each other than Slade working off Smith. If we're behind Vs Wales with between 10-15 to go we might roll the dice with that combination again.
Maybe on Steward, but he didnt need to be outrageous to link today...
Big leap to put either smith or ford at 12 regularly based on a couple of nice bits in attack v a tired Italy; I'd think the risk would outweigh any reward unless way behind. Did you not spot Slade acting as 1st receiver with Smith running off him- worked well I thought tbh., some nice run arounds. Still looked a bit unthreatening n midfield overall.
Was no one else getting frustrated at most of Smith’s wraparound running being too far back? It was slick but he kept getting the ball back 5 yards further back than he should’ve, allowing the defence to slide and not have to make a decision. I’m no back expert but it seemed like it should’ve been asking questions much more than it did.
