Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Banquo]

What the hell dirt does he have? He really is the player who suits the government who overlaps his career best though. I can't think of a better representation of WTF are you doing there? How are you qualified for that job??? than the lukewarm boy himself.

Steve Borthwick?
Martin Johnson?
2011 version of Stuart Lancaster?
Rob Andrews?

Dean Ryan seems more egregious than Andrew.

Puja

we need an egregiosity scale here

[Mellsblue]

Steve Borthwick?
Martin Johnson?
2011 version of Stuart Lancaster?
Rob Andrews?

Dean Ryan seems more egregious than Andrew.

Puja

we need an egregiosity scale here

Some would still be off it.

[16th man]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

[Mikey Brown]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

Yep. He’ll probably age out over the next few years but we definitely shouldn’t cast aside his experience and consistency quite yet. I just want to see a drastically different approach to blooding the next options in line.

We just about got away with having no backup during the World Cup, though he looked completely knackered by the end of it.

[Stom]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

We're not going to throw out Genge, we probably won't throw out Sinckler. I think we can afford to experiment at hooker for the next year. Though I don't really mind, it's the least of our problems.

[Banquo]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

yep, Creevy still going at about 76 so years in George yet

[Mellsblue]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

yep, Creevy still going at about 76 so years in George yet

Strange way for you to announce your playing comeback

[Banquo]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

yep, Creevy still going at about 76 so years in George yet

Strange way for you to announce your playing comeback

funny you should say that....

[Puja]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

We're not going to throw out Genge, we probably won't throw out Sinckler. I think we can afford to experiment at hooker for the next year. Though I don't really mind, it's the least of our problems.

While I definitely don't want to see him playing 78-80 minute games again, I think I'd prefer to keep George for the time being. Evolution is a lot easier with a strong base to work from and it'll make it hard to see how good our other experiments are if we've deliberately weakened our set-piece. In addition to that, we're not exactly overflowing with alternatives who are demanding selection - Dan is definitively behind George in either colour shirt and I am a believer in making a young player earn a starting place by improving, rather than gifting it to them on the basis that they're young.

Puja

[Stom]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

We're not going to throw out Genge, we probably won't throw out Sinckler. I think we can afford to experiment at hooker for the next year. Though I don't really mind, it's the least of our problems.

While I definitely don't want to see him playing 78-80 minute games again, I think I'd prefer to keep George for the time being. Evolution is a lot easier with a strong base to work from and it'll make it hard to see how good our other experiments are if we've deliberately weakened our set-piece. In addition to that, we're not exactly overflowing with alternatives who are demanding selection - Dan is definitively behind George in either colour shirt and I am a believer in making a young player earn a starting place by improving, rather than gifting it to them on the basis that they're young.

Puja

I guess I just thought George might have retired...don't know where I got that from. If he's not, sure. But maybe bench him and have him come on as the impact, giving the youngster a chance to actually get proper minutes instead of the inevitable Dunn Time.

[fivepointer]

If we had a couple of guys ready to step up i'd drop George in a heartbeat. We dont. So keeping him around over the next 12-18 months makes sense.
The hope must be that Dan overtakes him at club and international level and someone else comes into contention.
Great chance for Sam Riley if he can lift his game up a level.

[Spiffy]

Trying to respect some demarcation between this thread and the A team one:

I see there are a lot of people who put George on their time to move on list. I'm not following the logic. Yes he could probably do with a summer off, and we need to get some experience into possible replacements, but he's still our best option, the nearest contender has been out injured fir some time, and we do really need to blood some new options in other tight 5 slots. Chucking George out just strikes me as a bit (bloke who still looks like an oversized) baby with the bath water.

yep, Creevy still going at about 76 so years in George yet

..... as long as he stops eating.

[Oakboy]

If we had a couple of guys ready to step up i'd drop George in a heartbeat. We dont. So keeping him around over the next 12-18 months makes sense.
The hope must be that Dan overtakes him at club and international level and someone else comes into contention.
Great chance for Sam Riley if he can lift his game up a level.

Frost is starting to look worthy of consideration!

[Stom]

If we had a couple of guys ready to step up i'd drop George in a heartbeat. We dont. So keeping him around over the next 12-18 months makes sense.
The hope must be that Dan overtakes him at club and international level and someone else comes into contention.
Great chance for Sam Riley if he can lift his game up a level.

I'd say Riley already has stepped up a level looking at his performances so far this season. I'd say he more needs to show some consistency over a few weeks. He's well on the way.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. Riley needs more time. He’s always had plenty of promise but his darts/scrummaging have never been particularly strong. While he might have ‘stepped up a level’, it’s really the first time he’s got a run of games so I’d like to see him maintain form before expecting him to be in test consideration.

The A team would be spot on though.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Of note in the game was both wingers came of their wings a lot, as you'd expect in a normal team, as opposed to the rigidity of England.

Yes. Henry has obviously been given a roving commission and did look very dangerous running through the midfield. What a dream start to his career in France with three tries - all of high quality. He's actually too good for England

Certainly is at the moment. And the wrong player for the game plan. He’s a player who thrives with ball not chasing endless kicks.

That game plan is monumentally shit.

[TheNomad]

I'd argue it's just the wrong game plan. As others have said, let's not judge too quickly on the world cup, as ultimately it was (if you're being kind) focused on the prosaic.

There's time now to build something interesting. Needs a fresh start, including introducing (in my opinion) a more expansive game that actually looks to score tries

[francoisfou]

I'd argue it's just the wrong game plan. As others have said, let's not judge too quickly on the world cup, as ultimately it was (if you're being kind) focused on the prosaic.

There's time now to build something interesting. Needs a fresh start, including introducing (in my opinion) a more expansive game that actually looks to score tries

Sounds good, but does Slack Bladder have the inclination to adopt a more expansive game? Introduce players like Quirke at 9, Smith F or Shillcock at fly half and Atkinson at centre, for example, and we could see the beginnings of something special.

[Puja]

I'd argue it's just the wrong game plan. As others have said, let's not judge too quickly on the world cup, as ultimately it was (if you're being kind) focused on the prosaic.

There's time now to build something interesting. Needs a fresh start, including introducing (in my opinion) a more expansive game that actually looks to score tries

Sounds good, but does Slack Bladder have the inclination to adopt a more expansive game? Introduce players like Quirke at 9, Smith F or Shillcock at fly half and Atkinson at centre, for example, and we could see the beginnings of something special.

That is... an interesting recipe for what's needed for an expansive game. Shillcock? I mean, I love him as a player, but he's not England quality, nor as exciting a player as MSmith or Ford.

Puja

[francoisfou]

I'd argue it's just the wrong game plan. As others have said, let's not judge too quickly on the world cup, as ultimately it was (if you're being kind) focused on the prosaic.

There's time now to build something interesting. Needs a fresh start, including introducing (in my opinion) a more expansive game that actually looks to score tries

Sounds good, but does Slack Bladder have the inclination to adopt a more expansive game? Introduce players like Quirke at 9, Smith F or Shillcock at fly half and Atkinson at centre, for example, and we could see the beginnings of something special.

That is... an interesting recipe for what's needed for an expansive game. Shillcock? I mean, I love him as a player, but he's not England quality, nor as exciting a player as MSmith or Ford.

Puja

I’ve not seen much of Shillcock, but what I have seems very promising, so I’d not dismiss his chances just yet. He and Smith F may well be on opposing sides sometime on Saturday.

[FKAS]

Sounds good, but does Slack Bladder have the inclination to adopt a more expansive game? Introduce players like Quirke at 9, Smith F or Shillcock at fly half and Atkinson at centre, for example, and we could see the beginnings of something special.

That is... an interesting recipe for what's needed for an expansive game. Shillcock? I mean, I love him as a player, but he's not England quality, nor as exciting a player as MSmith or Ford.

Puja

I’ve not seen much of Shillcock, but what I have seems very promising, so I’d not dismiss his chances just yet. He and Smith F may well be on opposing sides sometime on Saturday.

Shillcock is a good club option but he's 26 and not a first choice player at either 10 or 15. Happy to have him at Tigers mind.

[francoisfou]

That is... an interesting recipe for what's needed for an expansive game. Shillcock? I mean, I love him as a player, but he's not England quality, nor as exciting a player as MSmith or Ford.

Puja

I’ve not seen much of Shillcock, but what I have seems very promising, so I’d not dismiss his chances just yet. He and Smith F may well be on opposing sides sometime on Saturday.

Shillcock is a good club option but he's 26 and not a first choice player at either 10 or 15. Happy to have him at Tigers mind.

With Pollard and Steward in front of him, no, but he’s certainly made the most of his opportunities and may continue to improve.

[Mikey Brown]

The A team v Portugal thread and Borthwick 2.0 have now done a full switcheroo.

Maybe we play the current first team vs Portugal to try out some attacking moves and put out an A side captained by Shillcock for the 6 nations.

[Oakboy]

If Smith x 2 need time to develop, learning their trade with Ford/Farrell should May/Daly be retained to help Arundell? Or, is that so much bollix and we should back fresh, new potential wherever it is available?

[Puja]

If Smith x 2 need time to develop, learning their trade with Ford/Farrell should May/Daly be retained to help Arundell? Or, is that so much bollix and we should back fresh, new potential wherever it is available?

The difference is that May/Daly are on the wane and Arundell is clearly better, whereas Ford is still beating out both Smiths and showing no signs of falling away. We should back fresh, new potential when it's earning a shirt, not just gift it caps because we think it's got the potential to be good enough with time. That way lies Joe Cokanasiga.

Puja