RugbyRebels

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 8:36 am

jngf wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 7:20 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 6:41 pm You rate Ojomoh over Atkinson and Dingwall?

Yes - neither of the latter two remotely inspiring from what I’ve seen of them at test level - would like to see a 12 Pollock 13 Ojomoh (or even vice Versa) given a go!

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 8:36 am

jngf wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 7:20 pm

Danno wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 6:41 pm You rate Ojomoh over Atkinson and Dingwall?

Yes - neither of the latter two remotely inspiring from what I’ve seen of them at test level - would like to see a 12 Pollock 13 Ojomoh (or even vice Versa) given a go!

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 10:11 pmIt seems that there is a mistrust of pace at 6,7,8 ...they are quick...ergo back.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:17 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 8:36 am

jngf wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 7:20 pm

Yes - neither of the latter two remotely inspiring from what I’ve seen of them at test level - would like to see a 12 Pollock 13 Ojomoh (or even vice Versa) given a go!

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

I've watched England dozens of times and it's like he's not even on the pitch!

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 10:11 pmIt seems that there is a mistrust of pace at 6,7,8 ...they are quick...ergo back.

This hits the nail on the head, I think. We've become so unused to having players who have outlandish skills or talents, especially in the forwards, that we feel the need to temper our enthusiasm and understate them, dragging their exceptionality down by declaring them an out of place back, who therefore can't possibly have the proper core forwards skills.

A luxury giraffe, if you will.

Puja

Danno wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 7:23 pm You mad fuck, but I admire the ambition!

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:34 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:17 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 8:36 am

To be fair Atkinson has been utterly anonymous at test level!

I've watched England dozens of times and it's like he's not even on the pitch!

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 10:11 pmIt seems that there is a mistrust of pace at 6,7,8 ...they are quick...ergo back.

This hits the nail on the head, I think. We've become so unused to having players who have outlandish skills or talents, especially in the forwards, that we feel the need to temper our enthusiasm and understate them, dragging their exceptionality down by declaring them an out of place back, who therefore can't possibly have the proper core forwards skills.

A luxury giraffe, if you will.

Puja

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:40 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:34 am

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:17 am

I've watched England dozens of times and it's like he's not even on the pitch!



This hits the nail on the head, I think. We've become so unused to having players who have outlandish skills or talents, especially in the forwards, that we feel the need to temper our enthusiasm and understate them, dragging their exceptionality down by declaring them an out of place back, who therefore can't possibly have the proper core forwards skills.

A luxury giraffe, if you will.

Puja

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:40 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:34 am

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 7:29 pm I see the appeal of Steward at 12 partly as I’m reluctant to jettison a player with test experience and evidence of a good level of performance. I think he could play there with the right skill sets around him (similar to MSmith at 15) but it would be preferable if he was playing there for Leicester.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:40 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:34 am

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 8:44 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:40 pm

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Tom Curry says hi.

Pollock is looking very impressive, but Curry was starting (and excelling) for England at 19 …

He wasn’t scoring breakaway individual tries and doing his best to wind everyone up, but his rise was equally impressive.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:40 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 10:34 am

Woe betide an Englishman being exceptional. Mustn't have that.

I wonder if the French fans found fault with Dupont when he was 20. Or, did they just enjoy what they were seeing and hope he turned out to be as good as his potential suggested.

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:08 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:40 pm

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:19 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:08 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

Perhaps not the best example given the number of caps, but I get the jist.

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:08 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 3:40 pm

I'm still sort of baffled what it is you're referring to with all this stuff about 'finding fault' or 'not backing our players'. I feel like near 100% of commenters on here think he is going to be fantastic. Have there been hateful messages towards him personally or a public slagging in the media that I've missed? It'a not like he isn't getting the game-time due to conservative selections.

Should we simply not mention any area of his game that needs improving or when he makes mistakes? Oddly that makes me think of Owen Farrell, who you'd think had some sort of injuction against commentators flagging errors throughout his career.

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:31 am I guess the overall point is that there are at least a few in the past decade, let alone the ‘last 50yrs’.

Pollock may well end up being a generational talent, I’m just uncomfortable with that proclamation at this point. His impact has been sensational and worthy of the headlines, but this whole notion that we need to accept him as the messiah or be branded a heathen is irritating.

p/d wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 8:56 am Not felt this about a player since a young Rory Clegg burst onto the scene.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 8:44 am

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:31 am I guess the overall point is that there are at least a few in the past decade, let alone the ‘last 50yrs’.

Pollock may well end up being a generational talent, I’m just uncomfortable with that proclamation at this point. His impact has been sensational and worthy of the headlines, but this whole notion that we need to accept him as the messiah or be branded a heathen is irritating.

I presume that is aimed at me - with some justification, I accept. Frankly, time will tell. Maybe, I am overexcited about an exceptional talent but I think your use of the word 'messiah' is at least as 'over-the-top' as any of my utterances.

It is many months now since Pollock's under-20 performances were reported on here in such glowing terms - way before I even saw him play. I subsequently saw what the fuss was about.

I'd make one appeal. Please don't spoil the pleasure in thinking and hoping that we may have a very top prospect. In 2002, we had, arguably, up to 6 or 7 very top standard players, since when we've rarely had more than one or two at any given time. Currently, we have one - Itoje - with Freeman and IFW probably having the talent to follow. Pollock may or may not prove good enough to join that company. My personal opinion is that he will. That would make four in the category, our highest number for 23 years. I am excited about that. If that comes across as anything but enthusiasm for the national team - sorry.

p/d wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 8:40 am
As does Arundell

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:19 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:08 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 4:23 pm

I just think it's a case of applauding the 90% of his game that's superb rather than concentrating on the 10% that needs improving. Everything I read and hear about him from those coaching him or playing with him stresses his willingness to learn and develop. His rate of progression is exceptional. In that specific category (and at his age) I struggle to think of an English player in my 50 years+ of watching the national team who came up to speed more quickly. IFW perhaps?

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 4:04 am

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:19 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:08 pm

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

Perhaps not the best example given the number of caps, but I get the jist.

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

I dunno - I think he might be a perfect example. Looked to the manner born, dropped right into the imminent RWC-winning side and looked like the best player on the team... 10 caps.

Many a slip twixt cup and lip.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 9:25 am

Danno wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:19 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon May 05, 2025 11:08 pm

Simpson-Daniel springs immediately to my mind.

Puja

I'd suggest Youngs. He was outstanding until he started to look around like he was birdwatching at every ruck. AND I'd argue that was a coached gameplan that saw his his running, quickness and sniping killed off.

yus. And never learning to pass quickly and accurately left to right, yet still earning a million caps. Like Faz tbh

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue May 06, 2025 7:31 am I guess the overall point is that there are at least a few in the past decade, let alone the ‘last 50yrs’.

Pollock may well end up being a generational talent, I’m just uncomfortable with that proclamation at this point. His impact has been sensational and worthy of the headlines, but this whole notion that we need to accept him as the messiah or be branded a heathen is irritating.