RugbyRebels

Digby wrote:I remain extremely concerned around that, if we enact something as economically daft as brexit and it turns out many didn’t vote brexit in the name of sovereignty (and that remains a reasonable stance though I disagree with it on a number of fronts) where do the great unwashed turn next?

The thing is that any economic collapse after Brexit won't have been caused by Brexit. It will have been caused by the Remainer parliament not making preparations properly and trying to reverse it, or the EU being petty and vindictive to us, or the Remainer government "talking down the country" and depressing the stock market with Project Fear. If we'd committed to it properly, like the Will Of The People (TM) wanted, then it all would've worked - the failures will be down to the Remainers screwing it up or those damned foreigners.

That's the joy of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias around an internalised belief - there's never a point at which there is too much evidence that you are wrong, there's just another reason why actually you're right.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:I remain extremely concerned around that, if we enact something as economically daft as brexit and it turns out many didn’t vote brexit in the name of sovereignty (and that remains a reasonable stance though I disagree with it on a number of fronts) where do the great unwashed turn next?

The thing is that any economic collapse after Brexit won't have been caused by Brexit. It will have been caused by the Remainer parliament not making preparations properly and trying to reverse it, or the EU being petty and vindictive to us, or the Remainer government "talking down the country" and depressing the stock market with Project Fear. If we'd committed to it properly, like the Will Of The People (TM) wanted, then it all would've worked - the failures will be down to the Remainers screwing it up or those damned foreigners.

That's the joy of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias around an internalised belief - there's never a point at which there is too much evidence that you are wrong, there's just another reason why actually you're right.

Puja

Whatever the reason supposed I remain very worried

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:I remain extremely concerned around that, if we enact something as economically daft as brexit and it turns out many didn’t vote brexit in the name of sovereignty (and that remains a reasonable stance though I disagree with it on a number of fronts) where do the great unwashed turn next?

The thing is that any economic collapse after Brexit won't have been caused by Brexit. It will have been caused by the Remainer parliament not making preparations properly and trying to reverse it, or the EU being petty and vindictive to us, or the Remainer government "talking down the country" and depressing the stock market with Project Fear. If we'd committed to it properly, like the Will Of The People (TM) wanted, then it all would've worked - the failures will be down to the Remainers screwing it up or those damned foreigners.

That's the joy of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias around an internalised belief - there's never a point at which there is too much evidence that you are wrong, there's just another reason why actually you're right.

Puja

Yep, that's the Leavers line now.

May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Whatever this leaves the question that on the off chance brexit doesn't fix all things what daft thing will be voted for next? How close to getting our own Trump are we, and worse how close to our own Hitler?

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Why would it completely fail because of the figure head? David Davis was moving towards Canada+ and the EU had said Canada+ was on the table. That said, everybody and anybody was doomed to failure as parliament is split into numerous minority factions, regardless of whoever was driving it.
I agree that she should’ve left it to DExEU so govt could’ve concentrated more on domestic agenda. It’s what Cameron should’ve done. Gove would’ve been the perfect appointment.

Mellsblue wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Why would it completely fail because of the figure head? David Davis was moving towards Canada+ and the EU had said Canada+ was on the table. That said, everybody and anybody was doomed to failure as parliament is split into numerous minority factions, regardless of whoever was driving it.
I agree that she should’ve left it to DExEU so govt could’ve concentrated more on domestic agenda. It’s what Cameron should’ve done. Gove would’ve been the perfect appointment.

Sorry, that wasn't 100% clear of me...

It's doomed to failure no matter who is there, so put an enemy there and blame the failure on him.

Canada+ remains a worrying option. We'd really be hoping the EU after all this isn't worried about other nations leaving or nobody really knows the outcome on our businesses, GFA, or future trade deals

Digby wrote:

Stom wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:May will become the focal point for all blame. The impossibility of coming to a sensible conclusion after such a ludicrous referendum will not be seen to be a problem.

The myth that a stronger leader would have got a better deal is too persuasive.

She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Whatever this leaves the question that on the off chance brexit doesn't fix all things what daft thing will be voted for next? How close to getting our own Trump are we, and worse how close to our own Hitler?

Not a large enough distance away. We're not quite at the stage where Lammy's comparison was correct, but personality politics, the dumbing down of the electorate, an increasing distrust of experts, combined with a febrile idea that we as a nation deserve better than we get and are very hard done by, could lead to a very nasty demagogue if we aren't careful.

Puja

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Stom wrote:
She's dealt with it terribly. She should have appointed Boris or JRM as Brexit minister and then had an excuse to sack them and shit all over them when they completely failed.

Why would it completely fail because of the figure head? David Davis was moving towards Canada+ and the EU had said Canada+ was on the table. That said, everybody and anybody was doomed to failure as parliament is split into numerous minority factions, regardless of whoever was driving it.
I agree that she should’ve left it to DExEU so govt could’ve concentrated more on domestic agenda. It’s what Cameron should’ve done. Gove would’ve been the perfect appointment.

Sorry, that wasn't 100% clear of me...

It's doomed to failure no matter who is there, so put an enemy there and blame the failure on him.

Ah, ok. In that case, yep!! Tbh, at present, I can’t think of anyone who isn’t coping some blame. It’s the political equivalent of the start of Saving Private Ryan.

Mellsblue wrote:

So, Change stealing from the Lib Dems, Brexit stealing from the Tories and UKIP, and very few opinions actually changing on anything. Good to know.

Puja

The failure of the Lib Dem’s to capitalise on the whole Brexit debate is still a slight mystery. They should be a natural home for remainders.

Yep, for all the marches and petition signing, it’s not really working at the ballot box (assuming you believe the polls). CUK refusing to work with the Greens and Lib Dems is both shooting themselves in the foot (along with a very questionable/absent vetting procedure for candidates) and showing that despite saying politics is broken they’re not willing to try and fix it.
Remainers hopes lie with Labour. Which is like leaving your children with the weird, unruly family at the end of the street, who live in the now dilapidated but once nice house they inherited from their estranged second cousin, whilst nipping out to the vegan, plastic free wine tasting evening at the local delicatessen.

Looks like the weird, unruly family might be good at child care.

Labour refuse to commit to 2nd referendum - not surprising from Corbyn, but I thought he might have had his hand forced.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 93361.html?


Elsewhere, I see that Our Nige is leading by example; as the unelected leader of a political party with no manifesto, no transparency and no accountability; he is also refusing to name his major donors. All this whilst accusing the EU, who's election he's standing in, of being unelected and anti-democratic.

Pretty simple for Remainers. Dont vote Labour in the Euro elections.

fivepointer wrote:Pretty simple for Remainers. Dont vote Labour in the Euro elections.

Yup - pity, as labour ought to be a natural home for many remainers; this leaves us with Lib Dems, Greens or local Nationalists

Which Tyler wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Pretty simple for Remainers. Dont vote Labour in the Euro elections.

Yup - pity, as labour ought to be a natural home for many remainers; this leaves us with Lib Dems, Greens or local Nationalists

Change Uk ?

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Pretty simple for Remainers. Dont vote Labour in the Euro elections.

Yup - pity, as labour ought to be a natural home for many remainers; this leaves us with Lib Dems, Greens or local Nationalists

Change Uk ?

Forgot about them

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: Yup - pity, as labour ought to be a natural home for many remainers; this leaves us with Lib Dems, Greens or local Nationalists

Change Uk ?

Forgot about them

That's politics

Sandydragon wrote:The failure of the Lib Dem’s to capitalise on the whole Brexit debate is still a slight mystery. They should be a natural home for remainders.

Are they just not making any noise or are they not considered click-worthy enough to get any airtime? I haven't heard anything at all about them since Mr. Bumfuck Homophobe quit.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:The failure of the Lib Dem’s to capitalise on the whole Brexit debate is still a slight mystery. They should be a natural home for remainders.

Are they just not making any noise or are they not considered click-worthy enough to get any airtime? I haven't heard anything at all about them since Mr. Bumfuck Homophobe quit.

They decided that the best thing to do would be to make Vince Cable their leader, which is the political party equivalent of hopping a flight to Dignitas to be put out of one's misery.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: Yup - pity, as labour ought to be a natural home for many remainers; this leaves us with Lib Dems, Greens or local Nationalists

Change Uk ?

Forgot about them

Surely Change UK suffer from almost all the issues you listed for Farage?