England vs Australia

[FKAS]

Just watched the replay of the final try. The OZ player had got outside the penultimate Eng defender. Smith didn’t have much choice but to bite in.

I just watched it back. The Aussie hands off Sleightholme who then stays on his feet and brings him down. Smith is no man's land. It's a difficult channel to defend in because backing off and buying time in defence is something you wouldn't do in any other position on the field. Got to concede ground and buy time not go for the miracle play.

We bit in to often in bad situations for it to be individual mistakes either a) it's a tactic or b) the players don't trust the system and therefore their teammates to make the tackle. Either way some questions coming El-Abd's way as it's a miserable start to his period as defence coach.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It looks like a trust thing cause it keeps happening in lots of different defensive situations.

Happened last week too.

[Mellsblue]

Just watched the replay of the final try. The OZ player had got outside the penultimate Eng defender. Smith didn’t have much choice but to bite in.

I just watched it back. The Aussie hands off Sleightholme who then stays on his feet and brings him down. Smith is no man's land. It's a difficult channel to defend in because backing off and buying time in defence is something you wouldn't do in any other position on the field. Got to concede ground and buy time not go for the miracle play.

We bit in to often in bad situations for it to be individual mistakes either a) it's a tactic or b) the players don't trust the system and therefore their teammates to make the tackle. Either way some questions coming El-Abd's way as it's a miserable start to his period as defence coach.

See my discussion with Puja for my thoughts.

[Which Tyler]

I've always been in the "shouldn't have been appointed in the first case, but give him time" camp.

Pre-RWC, I was unhappy and unconvinced, but he had to be allowed the RWC itself.
During the RWC he reached par, and did so in unspectacular and uninteresting form - but it was enough that I wasn't calling for his head; but had him as "up for review after the 2024-25 season"
After the 2024 6N, he was in the ball-park of par to slight under-acheivement, with 3 dross performances, and 2 good ones; those 2 were enough to think he was still on target for "up for review after the 2024-25 season"
After the 2024 SIs, he had narrow losses to NZ (so, about par), but the performances were far from encouraging, but... he might still come good.
He needs to go 2 from 4 this Autumn, and currently, he can only do that by beating South Africa, whilst showing no signs of being capable of working out how.

If I were the RFU, I'd be dusting out the little black book today, and deciding on who to appoint in charge of recruitment for a new HC; but I'd hold fire until this time next week. If he does get the win against SA (and Japan) then he gets the 6N to turn things around; if not, then he gets the 6N as caretaker whilst we identify and negotiate with his replacement. Meaning that the actual hire comes in the summer, when everything should be more reasonable from a release point of view (and as part of that, a "pissing off the current employer" point of view).
The only candidate I would consider from the Prem to take the role would be Mark McCall, but I doubt he'd be interested.

Ideally, the candidate should have experienced success as head coach at club level, and experience (preferably successful) as head coach internationally. I would assume any current tier 1 international coach is unavailable mid-cycle.

Off the top of my head, the short list could look something like:
Mark McCall
Jake White
Michael Cheika
Ronan O'Gara
John Mitchell (would need a longer caretaker role beforehand)

[Mellsblue]

I think the blame for at least two tries lies with Slade. He rushed up on both instances either too slowly/late or shouldn’t have at all and left Sleightholme and, particularly, Furbank/Smith out to dry.
Blaming El-Abd is incredibly premature.

[Mellsblue]

Dallaglio thoughts re Surelyon Borrowedtime:

‘There’s also a degree of patience that needs to be shown. I know Steve Borthwick has been in charge for almost two years and we’re in the results business, but there was a lot of therapy and repair work required to heal the wounds of the previous regime. That gives him a bit more time to turn things around. It has not been easy to give the team the confidence needed to win matches.’

[Mellsblue]

I've always been in the "shouldn't have been appointed in the first case, but give him time" camp.

Pre-RWC, I was unhappy and unconvinced, but he had to be allowed the RWC itself.
During the RWC he reached par, and did so in unspectacular and uninteresting form - but it was enough that I wasn't calling for his head; but had him as "up for review after the 2024-25 season"
After the 2024 6N, he was in the ball-park of par to slight under-acheivement, with 3 dross performances, and 2 good ones; those 2 were enough to think he was still on target for "up for review after the 2024-25 season"
After the 2024 SIs, he had narrow losses to NZ (so, about par), but the performances were far from encouraging, but... he might still come good.
He needs to go 2 from 4 this Autumn, and currently, he can only do that by beating South Africa, whilst showing no signs of being capable of working out how.

If I were the RFU, I'd be dusting out the little black book today, and deciding on who to appoint in charge of recruitment for a new HC; but I'd hold fire until this time next week. If he does get the win against SA (and Japan) then he gets the 6N to turn things around; if not, then he gets the 6N as caretaker whilst we identify and negotiate with his replacement. Meaning that the actual hire comes in the summer, when everything should be more reasonable from a release point of view (and as part of that, a "pissing off the current employer" point of view).
The only candidate I would consider from the Prem to take the role would be Mark McCall, but I doubt he'd be interested.

Ideally, the candidate should have experienced success as head coach at club level, and experience (preferably successful) as head coach internationally. I would assume any current tier 1 international coach is unavailable mid-cycle.

Off the top of my head, the short list could look something like:
Mark McCall
Jake White
Michael Cheika
Ronan O'Gara
John Mitchell (would need a longer caretaker role beforehand)

Mark McCall is on record that he doesn’t want it and Jake White is a busted flush. In this day and age, I’m not sure the optics of moving Mitchell are worth the PR battle.

[p/d]

Dallaglio thoughts re Surelyon Borrowedtime:

‘There’s also a degree of patience that needs to be shown. I know Steve Borthwick has been in charge for almost two years and we’re in the results business, but there was a lot of therapy and repair work required to heal the wounds of the previous regime. That gives him a bit more time to turn things around. It has not been easy to give the team the confidence needed to win matches.’

Phew. And there was me worrying

[Puja]

Some, but not signficantly more. Sleightholme is always still coming across - yes it's possible that Ikitau may still beat him, but in a 2-on-2 situation, you have to trust your inside man to make that tackle instead of making it a 2-on-1.

Puja

I know that by the book you trust your inside man but that wasn’t by the book defence. Sleightholme wasn’t really coming across, rather he was beaten on the outside. I can see why Smith made the decision as for a second Sleightholme looks like he’s fecked it up, as he did for when Furbank had to gamble. Ultimately, if our onfield defensive guru hadn’t fecked up initially (again) Smith isn’t put in that position. We’re really arging over the symptom rather than the cause.

Everyone happy with Slade’s role in that last try? I’m not. He made a bad decision and had a weak Sleightholme outside him and Smith left in WTF’s happening no man’s land.

Slade had three men inside him with absolutely nothing on for Aus except quick ball (which is obv helpful). There was no danger until he decided to fly in at 45 degrees and create a 4 on 2 outside from nothing. Sleightholme looks weak in D anyway but didn’t help, not that there was much he could’ve done (other than look weak and indecisive) once Slade made his decision, and then Smith has it all to do and didn’t manage it. A shagged out Earl and LCD unable to muster a jog were the cover. I find blaming Smith for us losing that a bit odd frankly.

I’m no defence analyst but WTAF Slade? He has more D decisions to make than everyone else so he’s bound to get the odd one wrong, which he did here for me. Willing to be wounded on this hill am I. Fire away.

The thing with the defensive system is that it should have people sweeping behind so that Slade is able to go charging up, so I have some sympathy that it failed him a few times from players being shagged out, but also, as you said, that occasion was never on. Turns out that playing someone who's had 30 minutes of rugby in the last four months and making him the pivotal decision-maker in your defence might not be the best idea?

No idea what to do for next week. Realistically I want to drop both centres, but for whom?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Dallaglio thoughts re Surelyon Borrowedtime:

‘There’s also a degree of patience that needs to be shown. I know Steve Borthwick has been in charge for almost two years and we’re in the results business, but there was a lot of therapy and repair work required to heal the wounds of the previous regime. That gives him a bit more time to turn things around. It has not been easy to give the team the confidence needed to win matches.’

Phew. And there was me worrying

Indeed. It’s good to know exactly where we stand. My wounds from yesterday are healing in front of my eyes.

[Mikey Brown]

I think some of the reactions to any England loss are pretty hyperbolic, but Borthwick and his team still look torn between different attitudes and tactics. We’ve heard so much about being patient and giving new systems time, that with continual disruption in the cabinet you worry this time has gone to waste.

Now that we have a new defensive coach are we restarting the 14 games of austerity before we should expect to see results? There’s only so long you can keep blaming it all on the Tories.

[p/d]

No idea what to do for next week. Realistically I want to drop both centres, but for whom?

Puja

Well Steward for one, obviously

[Oakboy]

Some, but not signficantly more. Sleightholme is always still coming across - yes it's possible that Ikitau may still beat him, but in a 2-on-2 situation, you have to trust your inside man to make that tackle instead of making it a 2-on-1.

Puja

I know that by the book you trust your inside man but that wasn’t by the book defence. Sleightholme wasn’t really coming across, rather he was beaten on the outside. I can see why Smith made the decision as for a second Sleightholme looks like he’s fecked it up, as he did for when Furbank had to gamble. Ultimately, if our onfield defensive guru hadn’t fecked up initially (again) Smith isn’t put in that position. We’re really arging over the symptom rather than the cause.

Everyone happy with Slade’s role in that last try? I’m not. He made a bad decision and had a weak Sleightholme outside him and Smith left in WTF’s happening no man’s land.

Slade had three men inside him with absolutely nothing on for Aus except quick ball (which is obv helpful). There was no danger until he decided to fly in at 45 degrees and create a 4 on 2 outside from nothing. Sleightholme looks weak in D anyway but didn’t help, not that there was much he could’ve done (other than look weak and indecisive) once Slade made his decision, and then Smith has it all to do and didn’t manage it. A shagged out Earl and LCD unable to muster a jog were the cover. I find blaming Smith for us losing that a bit odd frankly.

I’m no defence analyst but WTAF Slade? He has more D decisions to make than everyone else so he’s bound to get the odd one wrong, which he did here for me. Willing to be wounded on this hill am I. Fire away.

Can modern-day players get away with ignoring coaching instructions? The defence was poor throughout clearly but was it mainly design or execution?

Sleightholme looked totally out of touch with the system. The HB/FB switches certainly made things worse. Under the previous defence coach, the blitz seemed close to success with a bit more work required. Under the new guy it looked like a disaster waiting to happen. IFW's departure(s) did not help.

I suppose my biggest doubt about it, together with our attacking plans, is that it is making Freeman and Furbank look ordinary. That takes a bit of doing.

[Which Tyler]

Mark McCall is on record that he doesn’t want it and Jake White is a busted flush. In this day and age, I’m not sure the optics of moving Mitchell are worth the PR battle.

Worth noting that I already said that McCall wouldn't be interested; a short list is a short list, not a "hire everyone on this list" a RWC winning coach is a valid inclusion on a short-list, even if he's a busted flush now; and moving Mitchell on AFTER the WRWC shouldn't be any sort of a problem PR-wise.

[Mellsblue]

Mark McCall is on record that he doesn’t want it and Jake White is a busted flush. In this day and age, I’m not sure the optics of moving Mitchell are worth the PR battle.

Worth noting that I already said that McCall wouldn't be interested; a short list is a short list, not a "hire everyone on this list" a RWC winning coach is a valid inclusion on a short-list, even if he's a busted flush now; and moving Mitchell on AFTER the WRWC shouldn't be any sort of a problem PR-wise.

You wrote ‘doubt’ re McCall so was just adding to that. I don’t see the point of a shortlist that includes people you don’t want to hire. Moving Mitchell from Roses to men’s at any point looks like a pr nightmare but that’s complete guesswork on my part.

[fivepointer]

Some good chat here with Goode making a number of interesting points.

[FKAS]

Mark McCall is on record that he doesn’t want it and Jake White is a busted flush. In this day and age, I’m not sure the optics of moving Mitchell are worth the PR battle.

Worth noting that I already said that McCall wouldn't be interested; a short list is a short list, not a "hire everyone on this list" a RWC winning coach is a valid inclusion on a short-list, even if he's a busted flush now; and moving Mitchell on AFTER the WRWC shouldn't be any sort of a problem PR-wise.

You wrote ‘doubt’ re McCall so was just adding to that. I don’t see the point of a shortlist that includes people you don’t want to hire. Moving Mitchell from Roses to men’s at any point looks like a pr nightmare but that’s complete guesswork on my part.

Hiring Mitchell for the Roses was a statement acquisition, we're taking the women's game seriously. Moving him up to the men's side would be seen as reinforcing the view that the women's team plays second fiddle to the men's. Unlikely to go down well.

I'd be looking at the Downs on and Vesty combination from Saints, possibly with their defence coach and all three as a package deal. Failing that Sean Edwards, Ali Hepher, Graham Rowntree and if we were considering international coaches then Leon MacDonald.

I wouldn't be getting rid of Borthwick though I would be emphasising the need to him of building up a squad and not relying on the one he's got currently.

[Mellsblue]

Some good chat here with Goode making a number of interesting points.

Any chance of an executive summary?!?!?

[Oakboy]

Some good chat here with Goode making a number of interesting points.

Any chance of an executive summary?!?!?

'The blitz is great if everyone commits to it. We let teams off by switching off. Marcus is our best player by a distance.'

[fivepointer]

Theres quite a bit of content and he's well worth listening to.
He does make a good point about England making lots of small errors and players seemingly switching off. I think thats a big part of our problems. We can do some good things - CCS's first try was excellent for instance - but do then make really crass errors that undermine our performance.
How many times do we watch and bemoan a basic individual or unit skill being poorly executed?

[Banquo]

Just watched the replay of the final try. The OZ player had got outside the penultimate Eng defender. Smith didn’t have much choice but to bite in.

We bit in to often in

we did. Whatever the system, appalling decisions were made....and in attack too in fairness.

[Mellsblue]

Theres quite a bit of content and he's well worth listening to.
He does make a good point about England making lots of small errors and players seemingly switching off. I think thats a big part of our problems. We can do some good things - CCS's first try was excellent for instance - but do then make really crass errors that undermine our performance.
How many times do we watch and bemoan a basic individual or unit skill being poorly executed?

Cheers. I will have a watch once I have a spare 30mins.

[Banquo]

Dallaglio thoughts re Surelyon Borrowedtime:

‘There’s also a degree of patience that needs to be shown. I know Steve Borthwick has been in charge for almost two years and we’re in the results business, but there was a lot of therapy and repair work required to heal the wounds of the previous regime. That gives him a bit more time to turn things around. It has not been easy to give the team the confidence needed to win matches.’

what bs

[Banquo]

Worth noting that I already said that McCall wouldn't be interested; a short list is a short list, not a "hire everyone on this list" a RWC winning coach is a valid inclusion on a short-list, even if he's a busted flush now; and moving Mitchell on AFTER the WRWC shouldn't be any sort of a problem PR-wise.

You wrote ‘doubt’ re McCall so was just adding to that. I don’t see the point of a shortlist that includes people you don’t want to hire. Moving Mitchell from Roses to men’s at any point looks like a pr nightmare but that’s complete guesswork on my part.

Hiring Mitchell for the Roses was a statement acquisition, we're taking the women's game seriously. Moving him up to the men's side would be seen as reinforcing the view that the women's team plays second fiddle to the men's. Unlikely to go down well.

so would it be a bad look to appoint Mitchell

[Banquo]

Theres quite a bit of content and he's well worth listening to.
He does make a good point about England making lots of small errors and players seemingly switching off. I think thats a big part of our problems. We can do some good things - CCS's first try was excellent for instance - but do then make really crass errors that undermine our performance.
How many times do we watch and bemoan a basic individual or unit skill being poorly executed?

they switched off at 12-3 up, live the momentum shift was palpable