RugbyRebels

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Diggers, I get it, you think it's a terrible idea etc etc but I'm not really defending the concept of leaving, other than there are some upsides, albeit limited ones and nowhere near in quality or quantity of staying, and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds.

It's more this idea that you must be thick, inbred or racist to want to leave, or that it is all the ERG or the govts/Mays fault, or that it will inevitably lead to us being America/Singapore light, or that Brexiteers are Nazis at worst and racists at best (and yes I'd agree that a decent number of Leave voters are just racists/c**nts) or that it's ok to have a running total of deaths and celebrate when it theoretically meant that Remain would win a second ref or the premis that there were and are no lies coming from the Remain side. I could go on.

When I discuss Brexit in situations where most people are overwhelmingly ardent Leavers, I defend Remainers as staunchly from their insults and accusations as I defend Leave voters on here and I point the finger of blame at ardent Brexiteer MPs as much as I point the finger of blame at ardent Remainer MPs whilst on here. I've had my fair share of rows with ERG supporters whilst at Conservative meetings. I also have great discussions with many people who just want to get on with it whilst understanding that a second ref will solve nothing and no deal Brexit is madness.

In short, I think 30% of the country have been swallowed down the Brexit vortex and the rest of us have to watch you trade insults whilst nothing is achieved.

Just think, if we'd all accepted the referendum result we might out of the EU and negotiating the closest trade deal in the world, have continued joint initiatives, such as Erasmus, whilst also dealing with the myriad of other issues parliament should be dealing with, and the changes to everyday life would be almost imperceptible.

Here's the thing, you state very simply we need to accept the referendum and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds, which I disagree with, if I accept the referendum it's with the conclusion we should remain in the single market and customs union to minimise the damage of what is a very stupid decision, and technically I'm fine with that as we'd still be leaving the EU. So accepting the referendum is a very different thing depending on one's biases

Why you want to defend someone who's been busy being so stupid (and/or racist) I don't know, but if that's how you get your kicks so be it.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Diggers, I get it, you think it's a terrible idea etc etc but I'm not really defending the concept of leaving, other than there are some upsides, albeit limited ones and nowhere near in quality or quantity of staying, and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds.

It's more this idea that you must be thick, inbred or racist to want to leave, or that it is all the ERG or the govts/Mays fault, or that it will inevitably lead to us being America/Singapore light, or that Brexiteers are Nazis at worst and racists at best (and yes I'd agree that a decent number of Leave voters are just racists/c**nts) or that it's ok to have a running total of deaths and celebrate when it theoretically meant that Remain would win a second ref or the premis that there were and are no lies coming from the Remain side. I could go on.

When I discuss Brexit in situations where most people are overwhelmingly ardent Leavers, I defend Remainers as staunchly from their insults and accusations as I defend Leave voters on here and I point the finger of blame at ardent Brexiteer MPs as much as I point the finger of blame at ardent Remainer MPs whilst on here. I've had my fair share of rows with ERG supporters whilst at Conservative meetings. I also have great discussions with many people who just want to get on with it whilst understanding that a second ref will solve nothing and no deal Brexit is madness.

In short, I think 30% of the country have been swallowed down the Brexit vortex and the rest of us have to watch you trade insults whilst nothing is achieved.

Just think, if we'd all accepted the referendum result we might out of the EU and negotiating the closest trade deal in the world, have continued joint initiatives, such as Erasmus, whilst also dealing with the myriad of other issues parliament should be dealing with, and the changes to everyday life would be almost imperceptible.

Here's the thing, you state very simply we need to accept the referendum and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds, which I disagree with, if I accept the referendum it's with the conclusion we should remain in the single market and customs union to minimise the damage of what is a very stupid decision, and technically I'm fine with that as we'd still be leaving the EU. So accepting the referendum is a very different thing depending on one's biases

Why you want to defend someone who's been busy being so stupid (and/or racist) I don't know, but if that's how you get your kicks so be it.

You were doing so well to sound rational and happy to debate in good faith and then you had to put in that last sentence to ruin it.
It’s my big worry of politics at the moment. People aren’t happy to accept that people have a valid reason to have a different opinion. It must be because they’re thick, racist, evil etc etc. Civil political discourse has almost disappeared.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Diggers, I get it, you think it's a terrible idea etc etc but I'm not really defending the concept of leaving, other than there are some upsides, albeit limited ones and nowhere near in quality or quantity of staying, and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds.

It's more this idea that you must be thick, inbred or racist to want to leave, or that it is all the ERG or the govts/Mays fault, or that it will inevitably lead to us being America/Singapore light, or that Brexiteers are Nazis at worst and racists at best (and yes I'd agree that a decent number of Leave voters are just racists/c**nts) or that it's ok to have a running total of deaths and celebrate when it theoretically meant that Remain would win a second ref or the premis that there were and are no lies coming from the Remain side. I could go on.

When I discuss Brexit in situations where most people are overwhelmingly ardent Leavers, I defend Remainers as staunchly from their insults and accusations as I defend Leave voters on here and I point the finger of blame at ardent Brexiteer MPs as much as I point the finger of blame at ardent Remainer MPs whilst on here. I've had my fair share of rows with ERG supporters whilst at Conservative meetings. I also have great discussions with many people who just want to get on with it whilst understanding that a second ref will solve nothing and no deal Brexit is madness.

In short, I think 30% of the country have been swallowed down the Brexit vortex and the rest of us have to watch you trade insults whilst nothing is achieved.

Just think, if we'd all accepted the referendum result we might out of the EU and negotiating the closest trade deal in the world, have continued joint initiatives, such as Erasmus, whilst also dealing with the myriad of other issues parliament should be dealing with, and the changes to everyday life would be almost imperceptible.

Here's the thing, you state very simply we need to accept the referendum and that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds, which I disagree with, if I accept the referendum it's with the conclusion we should remain in the single market and customs union to minimise the damage of what is a very stupid decision, and technically I'm fine with that as we'd still be leaving the EU. So accepting the referendum is a very different thing depending on one's biases

Why you want to defend someone who's been busy being so stupid (and/or racist) I don't know, but if that's how you get your kicks so be it.

You were doing so well to sound rational and happy to debate in good faith and then you had to put in that last sentence to ruin it.
It’s my big worry of politics at the moment. People aren’t happy to accept that people have a valid reason to have a different opinion. It must be because they’re thick, racist, evil etc etc. Civil political discourse has almost disappeared.

Which Tyler wrote:Ouch:

Digby wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Ouch:

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

Digby wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Ouch:

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

Mikey Brown wrote:

Digby wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:Ouch:

Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

Jones? I don’t like him but he’s correct here, not sure how he compares to Farage at all.

Puja is right. May is a c*nt. I think that’s roughly what he was saying anyway.

Banquo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

Digby wrote:
Like Farage he's capable of raising some valid concerns, like Farage his solutions can far too easily be placed in a column marked insane/abhorrent

Jones? I don’t like him but he’s correct here, not sure how he compares to Farage at all.

Puja is right. May is a c*nt. I think that’s roughly what he was saying anyway.

I assume in the sense that the diagnosis is correct, but the solution wrong.

Puja wrote:If one were looking at the UK's demand for a "No Deal" Brexit vs any other option, it appears to be 35% for and 65% against. No doubt the media will give Farage and his ilk as much time as they want to carp about how this shows an overwhelming mandate for No Deal.

Greens are doing well. 5 MEPs already with an inevitable one in the SW still to come. Not bad to've doubled their representation when 75% of the media coverage that was given to them was "Don't vote Green, tactically vote Lib Dem to stop Brexit."

Puja

Which Tyler wrote:356/373


Brx: 31.6%
LD: 20.3%
Lab: 14.1%
Grn: 12.1%
Con: 9.1%
SNP+PC: 4.6%


Leave: 5.8M
Remain: 6.7M



MEPs (waiting for Scotland & NI), 2014 => 2019

Farage's ego, 23 => 28
Lib Dem, 1 => 15
Labour, 18 => 10
Green, 3 => 7
Conservative, 18 => 3
Plaid, 1 => 1

9 to be declared

Sandydragon wrote:Farage is claiming his triumph to be clear indications of the UK electorates willingness to leave on no deal. Yet more votes for parties with remain policies.

Real shame all the media will focus on is Farage.

Mellsblue wrote: Labour aren’t Remain.

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Farage is claiming his triumph to be clear indications of the UK electorates willingness to leave on no deal. Yet more votes for parties with remain policies.

Real shame all the media will focus on is Farage.

Yep. As per usual, it’s been spun every which way depending on your viewpoint.

Are you counting Labour as Remain, too?

Which Tyler wrote:6 million people sign a petition to revoke art50 "nothing to see here"
5.8 million people vote for Hard Brexit (whilst a million more vote for RevoteOrRevoke) "we MUST be included at the negotiating table" "Huge vote for hardest of hard Brexits" etc etc

Sandydragon wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:6 million people sign a petition to revoke art50 "nothing to see here"
5.8 million people vote for Hard Brexit (whilst a million more vote for RevoteOrRevoke) "we MUST be included at the negotiating table" "Huge vote for hardest of hard Brexits" etc etc

Good point.

Sandydragon wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Farage is claiming his triumph to be clear indications of the UK electorates willingness to leave on no deal. Yet more votes for parties with remain policies.

Real shame all the media will focus on is Farage.

Yep. As per usual, it’s been spun every which way depending on your viewpoint.

Are you counting Labour as Remain, too?

No. I was viewing it as a third for hard Brexit, a bit more for remain and others undecided or for softish Brexit. Overall it’s still very close, but the idea that all leavers votes for hard Brexit can be disputed.

Which Tyler wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Labour aren’t Remain.

That might, possibly be why didn't count labour as a remain party? Although, TBH, I did do exactly what you suggest I should have done, so...
Oh, and my original source had no such thing at the time of my postings.

FTR, I played with putting con and lab in a group of their own for wanting a negotiated deal, but... It's just too complicated to boil either party down to any position on Brexit. The leaderships want a negotiated departure, but neither parliamentary parties do, and I think I'm right in saying that neither set of party members do.
IMO, if you count Con as pro-Brexit, you have to count labour as pro-Remain, and accept that both are wrong and water down the conclusions consequently, I left them out of that calculation.