RugbyRebels

Yes. Sorry - Mitchell.

Puja wrote:

Tigersman wrote:I think that developing a winning mentality at this age is better than 3 weeks with a mixed senior team.

While I've no doubt that having Isiekwe, Maunder, BCurry, TCurry, and Cokanasiga would've helped, they wouldn't've made the difference between winning and losing today.

Hmmm. That's a big assumption that I'm not sure is correct.
I was impressed by Harry Randall's pluck but he was totally mullered at every stage of the game. At age group one or two players can swing the game.
The Curry boys would have had a massive impact. And their contribution would have made Randall's game a lot easier.

And it passes down the line.

kk67 wrote:

Puja wrote:

Tigersman wrote:I think that developing a winning mentality at this age is better than 3 weeks with a mixed senior team.

While I've no doubt that having Isiekwe, Maunder, BCurry, TCurry, and Cokanasiga would've helped, they wouldn't've made the difference between winning and losing today.

Hmmm. That's a big assumption that I'm not sure is correct.
I was impressed by Harry Randall's pluck but he was totally mullered at every stage of the game. At age group one or two players can swing the game.
The Curry boys would have had a massive impact. And their contribution would have made Randall's game a lot easier.

And it passes down the line.

Possibly true. And, of course, having them there would've reduced the need to grind some of our players into the dirt. On the flip-side, considering how important I see the Currys being to England in the next couple of years, I think I'd rather have had them getting a bit of experience and learning in Argentina instead of playing 5 games in 19 days and probably joining the very long injury list.

Puja

Would have been great to see New Zealand at full strength with Reiko Ioane, Jordie Barrett and a couple of others against a full strength England. That could have been one for the ages.

Our absolute best eligible team, something like;

1. Adams-Hale
2. Blamire
3. Morris
4. Isiekwe
5. Nay
6. B Curry
7. T Curry
8. Mercer
9. Maunder
10. Malins
11. Cokanasiga
12. Brophy-Clews
13. Ibitoye
14. Aspland-Robinson
15. Shilcock

16. Mullis 17. Dawe 18. Street 19. Caulfield
20. Earle 21. Evans 22. Randall 23. Crossdale

That team would have taken some stopping. Shame.

With the exception of Mercer and Brophy-Clews, are any of the U20s guys likely to feature for their clubs next season?

I was particularly impressed by Malins (again), Earl and I also like the look of Bayliss, Caulfield and Butler but I can't see much opportunity for them outside of a run in the Anglo-Welsh at best.

Of the five I mentioned there, Bayliss probably has the best chance at Bath. Blackadder has shown he'll give youth a chance and with Ellis injured and Denton leaving, there's definitely an easier route to a shirt than there is for the others.

Worcester have also shown willingness to blood their young players e.g. Shillcock, Humphreys, Singleton etc. so Butler is probably in with a shout.

Malins is competing with Farrell and Lozowski for the 10 shirt and Goode and Williams at 15. With all of those likely to be involved with England/Wales, I would hope he'll get a look in, but given that they are all relatively young, it's hard to see where he's going to make a proper breakthrough.

I believe Earl is highly rated by Saracens, but he doesn't have an easy task either. On paper he's competing with Burger, Wray, Clark, Conlon and Fraser for a spot at 7. As always, there's a high chance of Fraser being injured, but even then Burger and Wray are regular starters, Clark will be looking to make an impact and Conlon made a decent breakthrough last season.

Caulfield I'm not sure on? They were saying in the commentary from the final that he's been mentored by Parling. Obviously Parling is off, but he's still got Dennis, Hill, Lees and Atkins in front of him and apparently Rob Simmons on the way.

A few might get some opportunities. Mercer and TB-C are the obvious ones with Malins likely to play the odd game. Dawe may play a bit for Bristol, and I think Ibitoye could well see some action for Quins. Think most of the rest will get the odd AW and A league game, or go out on loan.
Suspect Caulfield is a shade too small for the Premiership. He's the Huw Taylor of this years group.

I don't think any of that tight 5 is ready for senior rugby tbh. To a man I believe they are all still eligible for u20's next year and they all look a little down on physicality. Our tight play was generally a bit powder puff against the big packs of South Africa and New Zealand. Even Caulfield struggled badly in the final.

I think some of the better ones, like Ibitoye, Malins, Aspland-Robinson, TBC etc will get games, and then a few will be dual registered and get games in the Chmpionship/Nat 1. Adams-Hale might see some action at Sarries as they are actually a little low on numbers at prop.

Timbo wrote:I don't think any of that tight 5 is ready for senior rugby tbh. To a man I believe they are all still eligible for u20's next year and they all look a little down on physicality. Our tight play was generally a bit powder puff against the big packs of South Africa and New Zealand. Even Caulfield struggled badly in the final.

I think some of the better ones, like Ibitoye, Malins, Aspland-Robinson, TBC etc will get games, and then a few will be dual registered and get games in the Chmpionship/Nat 1. Adams-Hale might see some action at Sarries as they are actually a little low on numbers at prop.

Yes - that's a fair point and I agree with you. The only one that looked even close to being ready IMO was Marcus Street and with three internationals ahead of him at Exeter (Williams, Francis and Holmes), I can't see him getting anything other than an AW/A League game or two.

Ibitoye will definitely get AW games as he did last season, but I doubt he'll see any Premiership action. Post-injury, I think Aspland-Robinson will be promoted to the senior squad if he hasn't already?

Some of the absentees will get Prem rugby. The Currys (obviously), possibly Evans if he's ever fit, Cokanasiga will all get at least semi-regular appearances and hopefully Maunder will make his way through the pack of 9s at Exeter.

Puja

The Glos players are predominantly front row - and as mentioned above they are at least a year too early for prem I think. Randall will get some Anglo time, if there are any injuries to scrum half he may get the odd prem appearance but not by default.

Gloskarlos wrote:The Glos players are predominantly front row - and as mentioned above they are at least a year too early for prem I think. Randall will get some Anglo time, if there are any injuries to scrum half he may get the odd prem appearance but not by default.

Yeah. I guess they're also not helped by Mullis and Walker and Knight and Seville competing for one shirt each. Unlikely all of them are going to see A-League or Anglo-Welsh action.

Re. Puja's mention of Evans, his injuries really haven't done him any favours have they? With Underhill now available and the Currys on the scene, he's slipped well down the pecking order. Not quite as far as Lewis Ludlam though to be fair!

Scrumhead wrote: Re. Puja's mention of Evans, his injuries really haven't done him any favours have they? With Underhill now available and the Currys on the scene, he's slipped well down the pecking order. Not quite as far as Lewis Ludlam though to be fair!

Yeh his injuries came at a bad for him aswell he was getting a run of games in the senior 23. Then for him to suddenly get an illness right before the JWRC.

Still can't believe Ludlam is at Saints still, this should surely be his last year with them he's about 2 years older than Underhill and Evans and 4 years older than the Currys yet has the lowest amount of senior gametime out of all of them.

Wasn't he a Englands player of the 2015 JRWC?

Tigersman wrote:

Scrumhead wrote: Re. Puja's mention of Evans, his injuries really haven't done him any favours have they? With Underhill now available and the Currys on the scene, he's slipped well down the pecking order. Not quite as far as Lewis Ludlam though to be fair!

Yeh his injuries came at a bad for him aswell he was getting a run of games in the senior 23. Then for him to suddenly get an illness right before the JWRC.

Still can't believe Ludlam is at Saints still, this should surely be his last year with them he's about 2 years older than Underhill and Evans and 4 years older than the Currys yet has the lowest amount of senior gametime out of all of them.

Wasn't he a Englands player of the 2015 JRWC?

Yep. Seems like a massive waste of Ludlam's talent. Pretty sure he was THE Player of the Torunament, not England's. I am a bit worried for Evans under O'Connor too. He doesn't have the best reputation for bringing through young talent.

Had Evans been available I wonder who would have started out of him and Earl? Earl was very good IMO.

I'm well aware there is a snowball's chance in hell of it happening, but I think Malins and Earl should come to Quins. Both of them would have a good chance of game time and would fit in very well.

Scrumhead wrote:Yep. Seems like a massive waste of Ludlam's talent. Pretty sure he was THE Player of the Torunament, not England's. I am a bit worried for Evans under O'Connor too. He doesn't have the best reputation for bringing through young talent.

As opposed to Cockerill?

Which Tyler wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Yep. Seems like a massive waste of Ludlam's talent. Pretty sure he was THE Player of the Torunament, not England's. I am a bit worried for Evans under O'Connor too. He doesn't have the best reputation for bringing through young talent.

As opposed to Cockerill?

surely all DOR's can now see that there is a great well of talent out there to build long term strategy around?

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Yep. Seems like a massive waste of Ludlam's talent. Pretty sure he was THE Player of the Torunament, not England's. I am a bit worried for Evans under O'Connor too. He doesn't have the best reputation for bringing through young talent.

As opposed to Cockerill?

surely all DOR's can now see that there is a great well of talent out there to build long term strategy around?

In our academy?!

Puja

Which Tyler wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Yep. Seems like a massive waste of Ludlam's talent. Pretty sure he was THE Player of the Torunament, not England's. I am a bit worried for Evans under O'Connor too. He doesn't have the best reputation for bringing through young talent.

As opposed to Cockerill?

Yeh this annoys me a bit neither Cockers or Mauger have exactly promoted the youth unless there was 3/4 injuries that forced them to. I mean we lost some very good academy players with them in charge like Odogwu, Humprheys and Purdy.

In Fact MOC played more academy players in the Anglo-welsh cup than when Cockers and Mauge where in charge.
MOC favourite player when he was here was Ben Youngs who went from:
Season before MOC came 2008-09 - 2 starts and 15 bench.
MOC first season as backs coach 09/10 - 23 starts and 9 bench whilst he was only 20/21.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: As opposed to Cockerill?

surely all DOR's can now see that there is a great well of talent out there to build long term strategy around?

In our academy?!

Puja

possibly. or are you being smart?

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: surely all DOR's can now see that there is a great well of talent out there to build long term strategy around?

In our academy?!

Puja

possibly. or are you being smart?

Our academy is a deserted wasteland, left barren by years of neglect, a well-earned rep for never playing young talent, and Wasps moving in next door and poaching anyone who looked handy.

Okay, so it's not quite that bad, but it's not in a state where it's brimming with Premiership-ready talent.

Tigersman - I take your point, although bringing up Youngs is a poor example as he was held behind Ellis and then when Ellis was injured, we signed the inestimable Frank Murphy. It was only when Youngs ran the victory against South Africa and Murphy had a knock that we actually started playing him.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
In our academy?!

Puja

possibly. or are you being smart?

Our academy is a deserted wasteland, left barren by years of neglect, a well-earned rep for never playing young talent, and Wasps moving in next door and poaching anyone who looked handy.

Okay, so it's not quite that bad, but it's not in a state where it's brimming with Premiership-ready talent.

Tigersman - I take your point, although bringing up Youngs is a poor example as he was held behind Ellis and then when Ellis was injured, we signed the inestimable Frank Murphy. It was only when Youngs ran the victory against South Africa and Murphy had a knock that we actually started playing him.

Puja

ah ok....well my point is then....re-stock, lots of talent out there!

Puja wrote:
Our academy is a deserted wasteland, left barren by years of neglect, a well-earned rep for never playing young talent, and Wasps moving in next door and poaching anyone who looked handy.

Okay, so it's not quite that bad, but it's not in a state where it's brimming with Premiership-ready talent.

Tigersman - I take your point, although bringing up Youngs is a poor example as he was held behind Ellis and then when Ellis was injured, we signed the inestimable Frank Murphy. It was only when Youngs ran the victory against South Africa and Murphy had a knock that we actually started playing him.

Puja

My point was more about MOC than Youngs.

Although I think Youngs is a perfect example of how a academy player should be brought in. Was given chances and he took them and each time he moved up in the scrum half order.

Bit harsh on Frank Murphy we signed him when Youngs was only 16, and Murphy left when Youngs turned 18.


Trouble with our last crop of development where a lot was average (nothing we can do).
Evans prob the pick of the lot was getting a good run in the 23 till he had 2 biggish injuries and a illness.

White looks promising and worth has been solid.

Keep an eye out for Hardwick in the junior academy he was a reason why we didn't try to match Wasps big wage for Umaga from what I hear though. Heyes is a promising TH and Grahamslaw who was an 8 has moved to prop on the recommendation of the same England coach that told Genge to move from 8 to prop.

Tigersman wrote:

Puja wrote:
Our academy is a deserted wasteland, left barren by years of neglect, a well-earned rep for never playing young talent, and Wasps moving in next door and poaching anyone who looked handy.

Okay, so it's not quite that bad, but it's not in a state where it's brimming with Premiership-ready talent.

Tigersman - I take your point, although bringing up Youngs is a poor example as he was held behind Ellis and then when Ellis was injured, we signed the inestimable Frank Murphy. It was only when Youngs ran the victory against South Africa and Murphy had a knock that we actually started playing him.

Puja

My point was more about MOC than Youngs.

Although I think Youngs is a perfect example of how a academy player should be brought in. Was given chances and he took them and each time he moved up in the scrum half order.

Bit harsh on Frank Murphy we signed him when Youngs was only 16, and Murphy left when Youngs turned 18.


Trouble with our last crop of development where a lot was average (nothing we can do).
Evans prob the pick of the lot was getting a good run in the 23 till he had 2 biggish injuries and a illness.

White looks promising and worth has been solid.

Keep an eye out for Hardwick in the junior academy he was a reason why we didn't try to match Wasps big wage for Umaga from what I hear though. Heyes is a promising TH and Grahamslaw who was an 8 has moved to prop on the recommendation of the same England coach that told Genge to move from 8 to prop.

Hardwick - son of Rob? From what I've seen of Umaga, that looks to have been a sound decision - I think he's trading on his name at present. Still vey young, so he could blossom, but he's a way off the pace at age grade.

Puja

Puja wrote:
Hardwick - son of Rob? From what I've seen of Umaga, that looks to have been a sound decision - I think he's trading on his name at present. Still vey young, so he could blossom, but he's a way off the pace at age grade.

Puja

Yep the very same.

Tom Hardwick he is a year younger than Umaga played a couple of games in the A league and was involved in the pre-season games for us. Glynn and Cohen name checked him during a fans forum as one to keep a eye on when they where talking about 10 cover aswell so i'm hoping he is on the coaches mind.