Team for Japan

[Mellsblue]

It is quite depressing to think that Youngs or Wigglesworth are the best alternatives.

I’m almost resigned to Wigglesworth being first choice with Youngs/Care on bench

Yep. As much as it pains me, the way those two are playing it might be for the best.

[Mellsblue]

I hoped for more leadership from him than he apparently showed. The fact is that he was not trusted to turn things round in the 2nd half after Jones's ht talk. Farrell was sent on to do it.

That’s quite the Damascene conversion. #injoneswetrust

Could just be that Lowzowski was having a bit of a mare?

Yes, it was more than one factor, probably, but Slade could have been swapped for Lozowski IF Jones wanted to see if the team could turn it around under Ford's captaincy. Maybe trying it for 20 minutes might have been worthwhile. After all, should Farrell get injured they might have to try something different against a better side than Japan. Rightly or wrongly, it seems that Jones will always want Farrell on the pitch for important matches (or parts - as yesterday). What it means for Ford is that he is unlikely to be in the starting XV unless both T'eo and Tuilagi are injured, I suspect.

So swap a misfiring OC for another OC to play at IC?
I agree with you that Ford will probably now only be a bench man - his best hope is Tuilagi staying/getting fit - but I doubt Jones’s judgement. I think he’s given up hope of an attacking game plan and will settle for 10 man rugby with the hope the back three conjure up a miracle between them every now and then.

[Mr Mwenda]

I do expect it. Hype is nothing new. Beckham was another who received crazy adulation but was limited in some aspects of his game.

I used to ignore it, but it has such influence. I can't stand Trump, but the 'fake news' he touts (which is mostly invented by himself), has a massive influence on the masses. The media Farrell love-in has the same effect on many.

I'm not asking the media to start a hate campaign (like they did with Beckham after he got sent off), just objectivity. Write it, as they see it.

Sure, although I'd say that to combat Trump and fake news the media needs all the resources it can so we should leave the sports pages alone (or reduce them) and spend more on real journalism. I'd be interested in newspaper economics - how many people buy their paper for the sports coverage and whether having an ex-international put their name to a ghost written column actually makes a difference. Certainly, with so much better sporting journalism available online it surely must have dropped in value.

My comment wasn't aimed particularly at you really, more at the shared anger of RR at how Farrell is depicted. It's just weird the way he gets dragged into every topic even if he has no real link to it,it's like a series of rituals get started once his name gets mentioned. The nature of the rugby beast is to find new ways to make money out of the simple spectacle of 30 people running round with a ball. So much is just extraneous money making, including repeating and flogging familiar stories. I think the only way it will stop is if we find something else to do on a Saturday afternoon .

[Rich]

Farrell wasn't the only change that was made in the match was he? Can the win be attributed to Underhill, Moon, Wigglesworth, Hartley, Sinkler and Hill too? Lets see, we were losing by the same scoreline you noted above when some of those players came on too. Plus surely a half time bollocking has an effect too?

As the NZ coach said last week...team talks are a waste of time...if you have to do it on game day, it's too late anyway

Even more so at half time.

Yes England brought on better players in the second half but Farrell came on at half time and the effect was immediate. England were already the better team when the rest came on.

...we also started the match with an unknown midfield and ended with a familiar one. The backrow finished stronger too. This isn't just the Farrell effect....

Yes, the Ford-Loz-Nowell midfield was a nightmare.

Slade had come on for Ashton by half time but the midfield still wasn't good until Farrell came on at the half.

...so it still begs the question posed by Puja...What specifically did he do when he came on?

He slotted in at IC and steadied the whole England team.

Just watch England's 1st half performance compare to the second half...when Farrell came on at half time the effect was immediate. England were miles better as soon as the second half kicked off.

Ford played much better with Farrell outside him for one thing.

[Rich]

...what annoys me is that they gloss over the mistakes. The very sloppy passes. If he really is a world class flyhalf, surely he should be able to pass accurately off both hands? Even the best occasionally throw a stinker, but Farrell does it most matches, sometimes more than one every match. Then there's the missed kicks and kicks out on the full....it would be nice to read some balanced, objective view points in the press, instead of the undue praise and worship.

You sound very bitter.

[Rich]

You really didn't see any difference in England's back play in the second half?

It was night and day.

The England backs had leadership in the second half.

The whole England team had leadership....the first half was a rudderless mess.


You can stick your head in the sand if you want but Farrell is now the first name on the teamsheet.

So all Farrell provided was leadership then?

His 6 tackles made, 1 missed and 2 turnovers conceded must've helped surely?

Did I say that was all ?

And in any case wouldn't that be enough ?


No he's not world class...he's not an English Danny Carter but he's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Right now there isn't another English OH anywhere close to him from what I've seen of them.


If Manu could only get fit the midfield I'd like to see at next year's RWC would be:

Farrell - Te'o - Manu

Sadly Manu is not likely to ever be really fit again so swap JJ for him.

[Rich]

A side note:

It was really nice to see the England rugby, football and cricket teams all win in the same weekend.

[Renniks]

A side note:

It was really nice to see the England rugby, football and cricket teams all win in the same weekend.

Something we can agree on!

[WaspInWales]

As the NZ coach said last week...team talks are a waste of time...if you have to do it on game day, it's too late anyway

Even more so at half time.

Yes England brought on better players in the second half but Farrell came on at half time and the effect was immediate. England were already the better team when the rest came on.

Perhaps a bit misleading regarding Hansen's comments. He did indeed say the ABs don't have team talks in the build up to games, but he did mention the coaches interact with the players at half time to analyse what is happening and how to change it.

I do agree to some extent about the usefulness of pre-match team talks. The team is selected, they're trained to play a certain way. They practice for various situations and set plays and their motivation should never be an issue. However, half time is vital for putting things right. Getting players to adjust or adapt to things that they may not have trained for, or something isn't working.

As Tom Jones said, it's not unusual for teams who haven't played well in the first half to come out and play like a different team in the second half. Coaches can take a lot of credit for that for the changes they make, whether it be tactics, personnel, formation etc.

You could also argue that Japan making 3 changes at half time may have affected their game. That's 4 personnel changes, including Farrell that is likely to change the dynamic of the game, without considering any other tactical changes that the coaches instruct their players on at half time.

...Yes, the Ford-Loz-Nowell midfield was a nightmare.

Slade had come on for Ashton by half time but the midfield still wasn't good until Farrell came on at the half.

Slade came on with not that long to go before half time, with England under the cosh at the time. Another thing to consider is that half time came at the perfect time for England, then with all the changes, including Farrell, it benefited us.

...He slotted in at IC and steadied the whole England team.

Just watch England's 1st half performance compare to the second half...when Farrell came on at half time the effect was immediate. England were miles better as soon as the second half kicked off.

Ford played much better with Farrell outside him for one thing.

Again, you're conflating Farrell being on the pitch as what improved England, where in reality there were a number of things...including Farrell's mystical presence.

I've watched the match again and a few England players helped turn around what was happening.

If Farrell was so instrumental in winning the game for us, why did it take halfway through the second half to get our second try? One could argue that Sinckler, Moon and Underhill coming on within 10 minutes of us getting that try could have been more influential.

Wigglesworth even added something positive to the game. He was instrumental in setting up Cokanasiga.

Japan had made their 6th substitution by the time Cokanasiga scored, 8th before Hartley's try. Considering their tier status, it's not that much of a stretch to suggest that their bench may not be as strong as leading nations is it?

All these things contribute to how matches pan out. If you want to believe the media drivel about Farrell, that's up to you.

He had a good game when he came on, but he wasn't the only player who helped turn things around for England.

Have a read of Puja's second half analysis if you like

[WaspInWales]

...what annoys me is that they gloss over the mistakes. The very sloppy passes. If he really is a world class flyhalf, surely he should be able to pass accurately off both hands? Even the best occasionally throw a stinker, but Farrell does it most matches, sometimes more than one every match. Then there's the missed kicks and kicks out on the full....it would be nice to read some balanced, objective view points in the press, instead of the undue praise and worship.

You sound very bitter.

Bitter?

Not at all. Annoyed at how the press toy with the facts.

Those instances of mistakes that Farrell makes are there for all to see, but yet, they don't seem to get reported on. Other players have their mistakes analysed to no end. Ford is still scrutinised for missing kicks in an England shirt years ago.

He does good things that get reported on and rightly so. As I said in a previous post, Farrell's kicking has won us matches, test series too. In some cases, those good things are creamed over to an insane level like his pass to Daly against Wales in 2017. Decent pass, but bread and butter for an international flyhalf, surely? I'm not asking for the lad to be lynched, a bit of balance to the reporting would be nice.

[WaspInWales]

A side note:

It was really nice to see the England rugby, football and cricket teams all win in the same weekend.

Indeed. The football was particularly pleasing.

Wasn't 100% sure about the Nations League format when it was rolled out, but I think England have done really well. It has certainly built on the progress made at the world cup.

Thought we were good value in the friendly against the USA too. I know it 'just the USA', but we put a young, inexperienced team out there and I thought they did well. It bodes well for England, and I actually look forward to seeing us play now.

[Mellsblue]

Bloody hell. Dallaglio blaming Ford for Lozowski’s missed tackle for the first Jap try in his column in the S Times. Just ridiculous. #fakenews

What’s also ridiculous is England’s 31 missed tackles!

[WaspInWales]

Bloody hell. Dallaglio blaming Ford for Lozowski’s missed tackle for the first Jap try in his column in the S Times. Just ridiculous. #fakenews

What’s also ridiculous is England’s 31 missed tackles!

Barnes did the same during the match. He said it was Ford that missed the tackle 3 times, even after replays clearly showed it was Loz. It was physically impossible for Ford to make that tackle unless he had Stretch Armstrong abilities!

It was almost 2 minutes after the try was scored that Miles Harrison identified who missed the tackle. It took Barnes another viewing to agree.

[WaspInWales]

But yeah, 31 missed tackles is shocking. ESPN made it 32.

46 missed against NZ.

23 against the Boks.

101 missed tackles in 3 games!

Wales have missed 41. Ireland, 63.

We're are truly building for something special.

[Puja]

No he's not world class...he's not an English Danny Carter but he's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Jesus. I can understand pushing back and overcompensating when the board are being unfair to a player - I've done it myself in defending Farrell against negativity on the board. However, there's overenthusiastically defending a player and then there's claiming Owen Farrell's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Puja

[WaspInWales]

Did I say that was all ?

And in any case wouldn't that be enough ?

That depends on the definition of leadership, and whether Farrell himself had any say on tactics and plays in the second half. AFAIK, Ford kept the captaincy and retained kicking duties. Whether Farrell's presence alone galvanised England remains to be seen, as there were a number of other key mitigating factors which any reasonable person could agree could affect the match.

No he's not world class...he's not an English Danny Carter but he's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Right now there isn't another English OH anywhere close to him from what I've seen of them.

Agree with the bolded bit, but my repeated point is that it is rammed down our throats that he is world class. Good, yes, improved, definitely, but there are still plenty of faults in his game. Can't question his determination, or effort though, but that doesn't make a player world class.

Disagree with your putting him in the same bracket as Wilkinson though.

I think this is why the media have such an obsession over Farrell. Wilkinson was known for kicking and tackling. Farrell has won matches with kicking and his hard hitting is plain to see, but again, there is an imbalance. Wilkinson had far better distribution off both hands and could kick with both feet. The man won the world cup with a right footed drop goal, even though he's a left footed player. I don't have the stats to back this up, but I'd wager Wilkinson missed far fewer tackles, and took on a number of trickier kicks for goal.

As for other FHs, Ford is very talented. He has such a good range of passes and good tactical kicking. Takes the ball to the line and has an eye for attack. Questions (in some quarters) remain over self-belief and big match temperament which seem somewhat unfair. He has starred for England, but when he does, Farrell gets the plaudits. When England don't perform and Ford doesn't play, Farrell doesn't get the blame.

Cipriani too is superbly talented. Doesn't have the hard hitting defensive game of Farrell, but trumps him for distribution and vision. Kicking not as good and has an unnerving tendency to fuck up off the pitch. Mercurial some might say

If Manu could only get fit the midfield I'd like to see at next year's RWC would be:

Farrell - Te'o - Manu

Sadly Manu is not likely to ever be really fit again so swap JJ for him.

Agree on Manu. Such a shame as he has the ability to worry any defence. Agree on JJ too, not a bad alternative, but not as destructive.

[Renniks]

It's all just confirmation bias at play… it's super difficult for anyone to notice things that go against pre-conceived notions…

If you think Farrell is world class, you'll see the world class things he does

If you think the media overly big him up, you'll see the faults in his game

Even world class players have faults… so it's really hard to judge where he actually is - but for me, the inability to pass off both hands to the standard I'd hope for and the dog-legs he creates are the two areas where I can't put him in that world class bracket

[fivepointer]

The thing with Farrell is that a lot of people DO think he's world class. A lot of coaches, former players, pundits, fellow players, writers and fans rate him.
These arent just your Stehen Jones types but people who really know the game, have played and coached at a high level and do generally know what they're on about. It's not just Eddie Jones who has picked him. He's been an England and Lions regular, so there is a widespread appreciation of what he can bring to a team.
I bet if you ask every coach in the Premiership if they would like him in their side you would get 100% positive response.
Its this weight of credible opinion in his favour that has led me to conclude that he simply has to have something, and that i'm almost certainly missing it.

[Raggs]

Would it be that surprising to see improvement when going from a brand new 10/12/13 combo, with an almost test newbie at 12, to a far more established 10/12 combo (along with much better forwards work)?

[Mellsblue]

The thing with Farrell is that a lot of people DO think he's world class. A lot of coaches, former players, pundits, fellow players, writers and fans rate him.
These arent just your Stehen Jones types but people who really know the game, have played and coached at a high level and do generally know what they're on about. It's not just Eddie Jones who has picked him. He's been an England and Lions regular, so there is a widespread appreciation of what he can bring to a team.
I bet if you ask every coach in the Premiership if they would like him in their side you would get 100% positive response.
Its this weight of credible opinion in his favour that has led me to conclude that he simply has to have something, and that i'm almost certainly missing it.

Very true. It is very puzzling. I think the long and short of it is that we only watch the skill set he shows on the pitch and in many regards in that arena he’s a long way short of world class. What he seems to be lauded for is his attitude, his lead from the front mentality, his desire, his sporadic big hits and his goal kicking. The last one aside, that is not what I want from a flyhalf. I want game management (beyond kicking into the corners for territory or to turn the defence), a fluid and instinctive passing game and an ability to make decisions on the gain line. None of these are Farrell’s forte. Turn him into a blindside with a couple of extra inches and few extra kg and I’d have him in my England team no question but he’s not my idea of a world class fly half.
Someone earlier on equated him to Beckham and I think it’s a good analogy. A slightly limited, but definitely international class, player who makes up for his limits with an incredible work ethic and maximising the skills he does have. I’d liken Ford to Scholes, a far more talented player but more of an introvert, far less likely to get on the scoresheet from a set piece kick and destined to be shunted onto the left wing for the far less talented Frank Lampard.

[Stom]

The thing with Farrell is that a lot of people DO think he's world class. A lot of coaches, former players, pundits, fellow players, writers and fans rate him.
These arent just your Stehen Jones types but people who really know the game, have played and coached at a high level and do generally know what they're on about. It's not just Eddie Jones who has picked him. He's been an England and Lions regular, so there is a widespread appreciation of what he can bring to a team.
I bet if you ask every coach in the Premiership if they would like him in their side you would get 100% positive response.
Its this weight of credible opinion in his favour that has led me to conclude that he simply has to have something, and that i'm almost certainly missing it.

Very true. It is very puzzling. I think the long and short of it is that we only watch the skill set he shows on the pitch and in many regards in that arena he’s a long way short of world class. What he seems to be lauded for is his attitude, his lead from the front mentality, his desire, his sporadic big hits and his goal kicking. The last one aside, that is not what I want from a flyhalf. I want game management (beyond kicking into the corners for territory or to turn the defence), a fluid and instinctive passing game and an ability to make decisions on the gain line. None of these are Farrell’s forte. Turn him into a blindside with a couple of extra inches and few extra kg and I’d have him in my England team no question but he’s not my idea of a world class fly half.
Someone earlier on equated him to Beckham and I think it’s a good analogy. A slightly limited, but definitely international class, player who makes up for his limits with an incredible work ethic and maximising the skills he does have. I’d liken Ford to Scholes, a far more talented player but more of an introvert, far less likely to get on the scoresheet from a set piece kick and destined to be shunted onto the left wing for the far less talented Frank Lampard.

I'd agree until the end. I think the Beckham comparison is Wilkinson. He worked almost obsessively on one part of his game until that part was the best in the world. Farrell hasn't done that. His kicking is mediocre at international level and there's nothing else remotely close.

I'm struggling for a football analogy for Farrell...The problem is that, in football, limited players are often unfairly maligned. If it wasn't for the press hatred shown towards him until the backend of his career, I'd say Farrell was closest to Emile Heskey...


I'd have him back at 12 permanently, btw. It suits his skills and negates his weaknesses.

[TheDasher]

The thing with Farrell is that a lot of people DO think he's world class. A lot of coaches, former players, pundits, fellow players, writers and fans rate him.
These arent just your Stehen Jones types but people who really know the game, have played and coached at a high level and do generally know what they're on about. It's not just Eddie Jones who has picked him. He's been an England and Lions regular, so there is a widespread appreciation of what he can bring to a team.
I bet if you ask every coach in the Premiership if they would like him in their side you would get 100% positive response.
Its this weight of credible opinion in his favour that has led me to conclude that he simply has to have something, and that i'm almost certainly missing it.

Very true. It is very puzzling. I think the long and short of it is that we only watch the skill set he shows on the pitch and in many regards in that arena he’s a long way short of world class. What he seems to be lauded for is his attitude, his lead from the front mentality, his desire, his sporadic big hits and his goal kicking. The last one aside, that is not what I want from a flyhalf. I want game management (beyond kicking into the corners for territory or to turn the defence), a fluid and instinctive passing game and an ability to make decisions on the gain line. None of these are Farrell’s forte. Turn him into a blindside with a couple of extra inches and few extra kg and I’d have him in my England team no question but he’s not my idea of a world class fly half.
Someone earlier on equated him to Beckham and I think it’s a good analogy. A slightly limited, but definitely international class, player who makes up for his limits with an incredible work ethic and maximising the skills he does have. I’d liken Ford to Scholes, a far more talented player but more of an introvert, far less likely to get on the scoresheet from a set piece kick and destined to be shunted onto the left wing for the far less talented Frank Lampard.

I'd agree until the end. I think the Beckham comparison is Wilkinson. He worked almost obsessively on one part of his game until that part was the best in the world. Farrell hasn't done that. His kicking is mediocre at international level and there's nothing else remotely close.

I'm struggling for a football analogy for Farrell...The problem is that, in football, limited players are often unfairly maligned. If it wasn't for the press hatred shown towards him until the backend of his career, I'd say Farrell was closest to Emile Heskey...


I'd have him back at 12 permanently, btw. It suits his skills and negates his weaknesses.

To say that he's comparable to Emile Heskey as a football analogy is just total rubbish. If you think that you're taking the whole thing too far. Farrell is a key part of this England squad and adds a huge amount of value. As I said on another thread, the thought of not having Farrell playing against Ireland in Dublin next year isn't a good one. He's very evidently a hugely influential part of this England side and is capable of contributing to it's success in a very big way.

[TheDasher]

No he's not world class...he's not an English Danny Carter but he's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Jesus. I can understand pushing back and overcompensating when the board are being unfair to a player - I've done it myself in defending Farrell against negativity on the board. However, there's overenthusiastically defending a player and then there's claiming Owen Farrell's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Puja

Agreed, he's simply not as good a rugby player as Jonny Wilkinson. But he's still a hugely capable vital part of this squad, he's a British Lion and a highly decorated club player for a reason. The slating he gets on here goes WAY too far.

[Mellsblue]

No he's not world class...he's not an English Danny Carter but he's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Jesus. I can understand pushing back and overcompensating when the board are being unfair to a player - I've done it myself in defending Farrell against negativity on the board. However, there's overenthusiastically defending a player and then there's claiming Owen Farrell's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Puja

Agreed, he's simply not as good a rugby player as Jonny Wilkinson. But he's still a hugely capable vital part of this squad, he's a British Lion and a highly decorated club player for a reason. The slating he gets on here goes WAY too far.

As does the lauding in the media as a whole.

[TheDasher]

Jesus. I can understand pushing back and overcompensating when the board are being unfair to a player - I've done it myself in defending Farrell against negativity on the board. However, there's overenthusiastically defending a player and then there's claiming Owen Farrell's in the same bracket as Jonny Wilkinson.

Puja

Agreed, he's simply not as good a rugby player as Jonny Wilkinson. But he's still a hugely capable vital part of this squad, he's a British Lion and a highly decorated club player for a reason. The slating he gets on here goes WAY too far.

As does the lauding in the media as a whole.

So you agree the slating does go too far?

I think Farrell has stood out this Autumn. I have no reason to laud him more than anyone else but I think the multitude of people who are giving all this praise are correct at this moment. He is whether you like him or not, hugely influential in this current team/squad. As I said on another thread, if we're serious about trying to beat this beast of an Ireland team in Dublin, we will need Farrell involved, I suspect they'd be delighted if he wasn't.