Team vs Scotland

[Danno]

plus our defence was poor and poorly organised. eg why was LCD there in te 1st place

Centres on the wings. Someone had to be there and poor LCD thought he was playing basketball for a second.

Scottish defence was immense. Thought we would break them down in the second half, but nah

partly that, but also system; Slade also learning at 12. Daly as I feared...and rotating positions in game can be an issue. '
The somebody should have been a wing- poor organisation and second mismatch costing a try.

Yep. Forwards went well imo but any platform they provided was squandered.

[Banquo]

A further (and you’ll be relieved final thought on this point), doesn’t the Simmonds at 8 approach only really work consistently well when you have two really big hard carrying flankers to accompany him a la Exeter Chiefs?

its not like its not been said tons before. Three relatively small back rows is fun, but has a knock on. And its not just carrying the big units at Chiefs do to free up Simmonds.

[Banquo]

Centres on the wings. Someone had to be there and poor LCD thought he was playing basketball for a second.

Scottish defence was immense. Thought we would break them down in the second half, but nah

partly that, but also system; Slade also learning at 12. Daly as I feared...and rotating positions in game can be an issue. '
The somebody should have been a wing- poor organisation and second mismatch costing a try.

Yep. Forwards went well imo but any platform they provided was squandered.

Was really talking defence; in attack, Youngs provided the constipation.

[Danno]

partly that, but also system; Slade also learning at 12. Daly as I feared...and rotating positions in game can be an issue. '
The somebody should have been a wing- poor organisation and second mismatch costing a try.

Yep. Forwards went well imo but any platform they provided was squandered.

Was really talking defence; in attack, Youngs provided the constipation.

Couldn't have summed it up better

[Which Tyler]

Am I the only one that cant see how lcd deliberately knocking on was a penalty try? Yellow yes, not a pen try for me.

He committed a penalty offence, which means the ref looks at what would happen there if LCD hadn't been there - in which case the Scottish winger all st certainly catches the ball, and walks it in.

Except the scores would have been level but for dick move, according to the ref.

Well, no. The scores became level because of the dick move.
Given that he got both hands on it, pretty comfortably, then the likely outcome of him not playing the dick move, is that catches he's the ball. Leaving England 7 points up and in possession, even if briefly, and with 15 men on the pitch and no massive shift in momentum.

[Banquo]

Am I the only one that cant see how lcd deliberately knocking on was a penalty try? Yellow yes, not a pen try for me.

He committed a penalty offence, which means the ref looks at what would happen there if LCD hadn't been there - in which case the Scottish winger all st certainly catches the ball, and walks it in.

Except the scores would have been level but for dick move, according to the ref.

Well, no. The scores became level because of the dick move.
Given that he got both hands on it, pretty comfortably, then the likely outcome of him not playing the dick move, is that catches he's the ball. Leaving England 7 points up and in possession, even if briefly, and with 15 men on the pitch and no massive shift in momentum.

….. ah, so if he had hypothetically caught it…gotya.

On the former point, is that really how it works? Genuine q.

[Which Tyler]

If he'd caught it, then yeah, 7 up.
If he'd just tried to catch and fumble the ball, then 5m scrum, England with 15 men.
If he'd gone for the ball but missed it completely, and was in no position to tackle the winger, then level scores, but 15 men.
If he'd tapped it back instead of forward, then possible try, possible scrum 5, possible 5m lineout, possible collect and clear... - all of which still with 15 men on the pitch.

But yeah, IMO, take out the dick move, and I think him catching the ball is pretty likely.



Yep, when assessing a potential penalty try, it's "if the offender wasn't there, what's the likely outcome" which is why cover defenders are so important in those discussions, not "what if the offender had done something different" or penalty tries would be virtually non-existent.

[FKAS]

Ford came on because Smith barely featured despite having lots of ball.

Youngs played 80 mins because Randall isn't an international scrum half and Eddie didn't want someone that can't kick at 9 when we were in an arm wrestle in poor conditions.

Ordinarily, I'd give you that, but Youngs's kicking was atrocious today. There were only 2 box kicks that were contestable in the whole match - the rest were massively overcooked. He was continually passing behind and above players, even off basic lineout ball. His presence at the base was soporific, exemplified by him getting caught by Price. I'm not convinced by Randall as an international 9 either, but given how poor a game Youngs was having, how much worse could he really have been?

Puja

not only bad kicks, but poor options to kick. dire

Given the noted lack of chase and how deep Youngs kicked into the 22 I'd say that it was the tactics of the day. Kick long and deep knowing that the Scottish back three will kick into touch in their own half and we can attempt the rolling maul. Has tactics go it was both dull and optimistic given the relative lineout strengths.

The general game plan seemed to be kick to turn Scotland and pressure so we'd get set piece ball in their half.

[Banquo]

Ordinarily, I'd give you that, but Youngs's kicking was atrocious today. There were only 2 box kicks that were contestable in the whole match - the rest were massively overcooked. He was continually passing behind and above players, even off basic lineout ball. His presence at the base was soporific, exemplified by him getting caught by Price. I'm not convinced by Randall as an international 9 either, but given how poor a game Youngs was having, how much worse could he really have been?

Puja

not only bad kicks, but poor options to kick. dire

Given the noted lack of chase and how deep Youngs kicked into the 22 I'd say that it was the tactics of the day. Kick long and deep knowing that the Scottish back three will kick into touch in their own half and we can attempt the rolling maul. Has tactics go it was both dull and optimistic given the relative lineout strengths.

The general game plan seemed to be kick to turn Scotland and pressure so we'd get set piece ball in their half.

As is usual in about one in three times he overdid it. It was poor decision making, even if the general plan was there; we actually kicked a lot less than Scotland as a % of possession. I note you abstain from criticising him, under the guise of game plan, but he is the most senior player and decision maker out there, and at some point we needed to actually try and score when near their 22- and those are the kicks that most irked me (he wasn't alone in kicking when there were better options, in fairness).

[Banquo]

If he'd caught it, then yeah, 7 up.
If he'd just tried to catch and fumble the ball, then 5m scrum, England with 15 men.
If he'd gone for the ball but missed it completely, and was in no position to tackle the winger, then level scores, but 15 men.
If he'd tapped it back instead of forward, then possible try, possible scrum 5, possible 5m lineout, possible collect and clear... - all of which still with 15 men on the pitch.

But yeah, IMO, take out the dick move, and I think him catching the ball is pretty likely.



Yep, when assessing a potential penalty try, it's "if the offender wasn't there, what's the likely outcome" which is why cover defenders are so important in those discussions, not "what if the offender had done something different" or penalty tries would be virtually non-existent.

Fair dinkum. I'll have to think about your latter assertion

[Oakboy]

I don't want Isiekwe to be made a scapegoat but I'd move him to the bench in Ewels' place and start Launchbury if he's fit after Wasps game yesterday. His overall game would be invaluable but, most of all, his on-the-hoof leadership would lift the team's effectiveness.

I think Itoje gives the team more somehow if he is the junior lock. Maybe, it frees him up to be feisty rather than responsible. I'm not suggesting for a second that he played badly, just that his overall duties did not allow him to niggle/disrupt the opposition. He can be a real menace then. The odd penalty would be a reasonable price to pay.

[Banquo]

I don't want Isiekwe to be made a scapegoat but I'd move him to the bench in Ewels' place and start Launchbury if he's fit after Wasps game yesterday. His overall game would be invaluable but, most of all, his on-the-hoof leadership would lift the team's effectiveness.

I think Itoje gives the team more somehow if he is the junior lock. Maybe, it frees him up to be feisty rather than responsible. I'm not suggesting for a second that he played badly, just that his overall duties did not allow him to niggle/disrupt the opposition. He can be a real menace then. The odd penalty would be a reasonable price to pay.

I think he's decided to back off and not concede them tbh- which is a shame.

[fivepointer]

For a team packed with good runners and handlers, an inventive 10, with a mobile back row we contrived to do very little with the ball we had.
in a way this is the keenest disappointment.
I never expected our defence to be that great, but i did expect to see a bit of dash and enterprise with the ball. One try, a couple of half breaks and that was it. We never really stressed the Scottish defence, nor created many try scoring opportunities. I accept the weather wasnt ideal but it wasnt a monsoon and handling was perfectly possible.
On the LCD pen try. What the hell was he doing out on the wing anyway?

[Mellsblue]

[Oakboy]

Fair record that! Success? Failure? Building for the future? But we must not criticise the highly experienced Mr Jones.

[p/d]

I think he's decided to back off and not concede them tbh- which is a shame.

I blame Gatland

Plus all the squad should be sent back to their clubs to play on non international weekends. Less time in camp the better

[Oakboy]

For a team packed with good runners and handlers, an inventive 10, with a mobile back row we contrived to do very little with the ball we had.
in a way this is the keenest disappointment.
I never expected our defence to be that great, but i did expect to see a bit of dash and enterprise with the ball. One try, a couple of half breaks and that was it. We never really stressed the Scottish defence, nor created many try scoring opportunities. I accept the weather wasnt ideal but it wasnt a monsoon and handling was perfectly possible.
On the LCD pen try. What the hell was he doing out on the wing anyway?

Interesting but contrasting reflections in your first and last sentences. We are supposed to believe in some wonderful new scheme of versatility. IMO, it is asking young, inexperienced players to run before they can walk. What is wrong with picking players in their correct positions, line up conventionally (Marchant at 13 etc.) and just play better than the opposition? The players were good enough yesterday. The system was not.

[Oakboy]

I think he's decided to back off and not concede them tbh- which is a shame.

I blame Gatland

Plus all the squad should be sent back to their clubs to play on non international weekends. Less time in camp the better

P/D, how dare you suggest that the players would be better without coaching!!!!

[Mellsblue]

.

[Mikey Brown]

Well this has been an entertaining read this morning.

I think I need to watch it back before I can really comment.

[Mellsblue]

Well this has been an entertaining read this morning.

I think I need to watch it back before I can really comment.

That’s not how the internet works. You make a snap decision based on little evidence and then you stick to it without fail.

[p/d]

[ The players were good enough yesterday. The system was not.

Good enough but not good enough/willing to adapt and play heads up.Youngs managed a snipe and yet we stuck to sending Slade/Daly and Strictly’s Malins into the wall of defence whilst Marchant did an impression of Josh Adams playing out of position.

[Which Tyler]

I'll have to think about your latter assertion

More a "thinking out loud" but fair enough.

Thinking behind it is that most penalty tries seem to be given for high tackles or offside defending a ruck. The ref does chat with the TMO about what would happen had the tackle hit 4 inches lower, or the defender started 1 inch further back, but if someone else would have been in a position to make the tackle.

Thinking about it this morning though, it probably wouldn't make a different to the penalty tries for collapsing a maul, so not "virtually non-existent" but significantly fewer.

.

That looks a harder catch than I thought, the ball's more past him than above him.
I'd still like to have seen a genuine attempt at a catch though - which he doesn't even consider, at least a fumble would have been an accidental knock on and scrum with a full pack.
Even bailing out of it would have been a better decision - still scores level, but 15 v 15

[p/d]

P/D, how dare you suggest that the players would be better without coaching!!!!

I was sat there shouting ‘change something!!!’. Thinking Nowell onto wing, Marchant to 12 and Slade back to 13 with Daly back on wing and Malins off ….. and then Ford trots on

[Oakboy]

[ The players were good enough yesterday. The system was not.

Good enough but not good enough/willing to adapt and play heads up.Youngs managed a snipe and yet we stuck to sending Slade/Daly and Strictly’s Malins into the wall of defence whilst Marchant did an impression of Josh Adams playing out of position.

Today's players aren't the characters of the amateur era. Going 'off-piste' against the head coach's instructions ain't going to happen if there's a risk of not being selected for the next game.