RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:

francoisfou wrote:So Gibson-Park was MoM? Whoever decided that must have thought Genge was decidedly average. Genge had what was undoubtedly his best match for England. He surely was the catalyst that fired up the England pack. Whether England would have won if Ewels hadn’t been sent off is debatable but if England had finished the game with 15 on the pitch it would have been a tighter finish. Launchbury will probably start at the SdF with maybe Chessum on the bench and Ewels should be banned from representing England for life!

Agreed that that was the best game we've seen out of Genge in a white shirt. Really stepped up in adversity.

Puja

After about 30 minutes it became apparent that Genge, Lawes and George were having a great time, just smashing anything in green that came near them.

Puja wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

francoisfou wrote:So Gibson-Park was MoM? Whoever decided that must have thought Genge was decidedly average. Genge had what was undoubtedly his best match for England. He surely was the catalyst that fired up the England pack. Whether England would have won if Ewels hadn’t been sent off is debatable but if England had finished the game with 15 on the pitch it would have been a tighter finish. Launchbury will probably start at the SdF with maybe Chessum on the bench and Ewels should be banned from representing England for life!

My MOM was Ireland FB Keenan. Great under the high ball, effective counter attacker and nice line for his try. I would not even have JGP in the team. Notice the difference when Murray appeared.
I am admittedly biased, but I thought the England pack did a great con job in wheeling the scrum and then convincing the ref it was the Irish (several times.)
Fair play to the England forwards for fronting up when they were a man down for practically the entire game.
Itoje is unreal - at times he was a one man band for England out there. They would be lost without him.
The England three quarters still look quite blunt.

JGP did create the crucial try and several key moments with quick taps. Hard to argue he wasn't the difference.

Puja

Maybe I'm a bit hard on him. JPG is pretty good on the front foot when he is getting an armchair ride. But when things are not going so smoothly, many Irish fans are waiting for the next brain fart. Murray is not the player he was, but he is still a crafty old sod who knows how to steady the ship.

32nd Man wrote:

badback wrote:Who in right mind subs marchant for Daly in a game like that ? I get they just have been exhausted after 14 v 15 but marchant et al all going well and subbed.

I dislike Eddy's approach as much as the next person but Marchant was spent. He was limping going down the sideline to go off.

Missed that

Impressed with the forwards and Marchant, not so much the rest of the backs (I have included Nowell in the former). I think if we are to continue with Malins he needs to be moved to 15 and a speedster brought in to replace him. I don't care if they have deficiencies, we need some threat from the back three.

Haven’t seen the game but noticed that Curry and Sinckler also both departed early?

Banquo wrote:Haven’t seen the game but noticed that Curry and Sinckler also both departed early?

Curry limped off after 15mins, Sinckler was taken off just before HT and failed an HIA

Danno wrote:

Banquo wrote:Haven’t seen the game but noticed that Curry and Sinckler also both departed early?

Curry limped off after 15mins, Sinckler was taken off just before HT and failed an HIA

Jeez, down to 14 and then losing Curry takes some coming to grips with.

32nd Man wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

francoisfou wrote:So Gibson-Park was MoM? Whoever decided that must have thought Genge was decidedly average. Genge had what was undoubtedly his best match for England. He surely was the catalyst that fired up the England pack. Whether England would have won if Ewels hadn’t been sent off is debatable but if England had finished the game with 15 on the pitch it would have been a tighter finish. Launchbury will probably start at the SdF with maybe Chessum on the bench and Ewels should be banned from representing England for life!

My MOM was Ireland FB Keenan. Great under the high ball, effective counter attacker and nice line for his try. I would not even have JGP in the team. Notice the difference when Murray appeared.
I am admittedly biased, but I thought the England pack did a great con job in wheeling the scrum and then convincing the ref it was the Irish (several times.)
Fair play to the England forwards for fronting up when they were a man down for practically the entire game.
Itoje is unreal - at times he was a one man band for England out there. They would be lost without him.
The England three quarters still look quite blunt.

Not sure you've got the scrum right there. At every set you could see Genge was under Furlong and then took him to the cleaners, Sink and Stuart drove straight and the Irish scrum folded.

Furlong wasn’t moving, Eng got a slight nudge on in the 2nd scrum and went round. Ref decided Eng were in the ascendency and pinged Ire every time after that, every time the scrum wheeled. Different ref, different outcome. It gave us a foothold though so I’m not complaining.

Banquo wrote:

Danno wrote:

Banquo wrote:Haven’t seen the game but noticed that Curry and Sinckler also both departed early?

Curry limped off after 15mins, Sinckler was taken off just before HT and failed an HIA

Jeez, down to 14 and then losing Curry takes some coming to grips with.

There was more fight in that side than I've seen in a long time. I switched off with the red, but only lasted 10 minutes before I started watching again and, other than a maybe questionable run of scrum pens (despite which no Ire front rower was carded), the pack were hungry for once

Beasties wrote:

32nd Man wrote:

Spiffy wrote:My MOM was Ireland FB Keenan. Great under the high ball, effective counter attacker and nice line for his try. I would not even have JGP in the team. Notice the difference when Murray appeared.
I am admittedly biased, but I thought the England pack did a great con job in wheeling the scrum and then convincing the ref it was the Irish (several times.)
Fair play to the England forwards for fronting up when they were a man down for practically the entire game.
Itoje is unreal - at times he was a one man band for England out there. They would be lost without him.
The England three quarters still look quite blunt.

Not sure you've got the scrum right there. At every set you could see Genge was under Furlong and then took him to the cleaners, Sink and Stuart drove straight and the Irish scrum folded.

Furlong wasn’t moving, Eng got a slight nudge on in the 2nd scrum and went round. Ref decided Eng were in the ascendency and pinged Ire every time after that, every time the scrum wheeled. Different ref, different outcome. It gave us a foothold though so I’m not complaining.

Would need to rewatch, as that's not how I saw it at the time, but given how highly vaunted the Irish scrum is 7 forwards and a winger shouldn't be getting a slight nudge on.

Danno wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Danno wrote:Curry limped off after 15mins, Sinckler was taken off just before HT and failed an HIA

Jeez, down to 14 and then losing Curry takes some coming to grips with.

There was more fight in that side than I've seen in a long time. I switched off with the red, but only lasted 10 minutes before I started watching again and, other than a maybe questionable run of scrum pens (despite which no Ire front rower was carded), the pack were hungry for once

The English pack were good (Itoje immense). They shaded their 8 man opponents with hard nosed play and won plenty of ball. But again, the England three quarters lacked penetration in the centre and speed on the wing. Again they did not score a try or look close. While overall, it was a great effort by 14 man England, this does not paper over the continuing deficiencies behind the scrum. Jones has selection issues in the backs, but his problem is that no-one is sticking his hand up. It's hard to believe that the current lot will suddenly become good against France, who have the best backs in the competition.

Spiffy wrote:

Danno wrote:

Banquo wrote: Jeez, down to 14 and then losing Curry takes some coming to grips with.

There was more fight in that side than I've seen in a long time. I switched off with the red, but only lasted 10 minutes before I started watching again and, other than a maybe questionable run of scrum pens (despite which no Ire front rower was carded), the pack were hungry for once

The English pack were good (Itoje immense). They shaded their 8 man opponents with hard nosed play and won plenty of ball. But again, the England three quarters lacked penetration in the centre and speed on the wing. Again they did not score a try or look close. While overall, it was a great effort by 14 man England, this does not paper over the continuing deficiencies behind the scrum. Jones has selection issues in the backs, but his problem is that no-one is sticking his hand up. It's hard to believe that the current lot will suddenly become good against France, who have the best backs in the competition.

Exactly
We are missing some players of course - Manu most of all but also coka and Watson and May
And some of the replacements have been odd selections
Maybe marchant has been injured and I’ve missed it but he seems to me be better at center with slade than any other combination bar Manu

Big effort to take the game that deep before Ireland got away. It really was a tremendous performance from the 7 man (+ Nowell) pack, particularly as Curry went off early.
Questions remain about our lack of creativity and penetration. Very few breaks and not a single try scoring chance created.
Tough when you're a man short but we have to offer something more than wholehearted effort.

I think that was the most of I’ve enjoyed an England game for quite a while, weirdly. Very unsettling to find myself agreeing with things both Dallaglio and Woodward said today, but feels like this could be something of a turning point in an odd (but positive) way.

Not sure if there’s any real logic to that or not. Could we have got that kind of ferocity out of the forward performance without the red and with the odds stacking up against us with injuries/illness? Was this the physicality Eddie was talking about that we’ve apparently just discovered since Wales? Who knows.

Can anyone actually tell what happened here?



Half saw it at the time and it looked dodgy but very hard to tell what contact is actually made.

Spiffy wrote:

francoisfou wrote:So Gibson-Park was MoM? Whoever decided that must have thought Genge was decidedly average. Genge had what was undoubtedly his best match for England. He surely was the catalyst that fired up the England pack. Whether England would have won if Ewels hadn’t been sent off is debatable but if England had finished the game with 15 on the pitch it would have been a tighter finish. Launchbury will probably start at the SdF with maybe Chessum on the bench and Ewels should be banned from representing England for life!

My MOM was Ireland FB Keenan. Great under the high ball, effective counter attacker and nice line for his try. I would not even have JGP in the team. Notice the difference when Murray appeared.
I am admittedly biased, but I thought the England pack did a great con job in wheeling the scrum and then convincing the ref it was the Irish (several times.)
Fair play to the England forwards for fronting up when they were a man down for practically the entire game.
Itoje is unreal - at times he was a one man band for England out there. They would be lost without him.
The England three quarters still look quite blunt.

Don't you think Ireland's approach with JGP was very close to fully coming off though. A couple fewer handling errors in that first thirty and that could have turned into a cricket score. As it was, England started dominating the scrum and getting stuck in.

You could also argue that Ireland's all out attack approach was what led England to run out of gas at the end. I've seen teams with a man up play right into the other team's hands before by trying to be too sensible.

Anyway, much more fun game than it could have been - especially compared to the other two.

Sad to hear that Curry is out for France. Not heard about Sinckler yet.

So, a glorious English defeat. It might have got spirits up but there are questions there.

Why does it take adversity to produce a full-blooded performance? Why can't the coaching crew get one any other time?

If Lawes moving to the 2nd row produces a major change in the scrum go-forward, why has Ewels ever been picked?

Beyond that, with some major individual performances, I'm not sure what to think. All replacements were used right up to the 80th minute but quite a few players had to go the distance - 78 minutes down to 14. Itoje, Lawes and Simmonds all have superb engines to do that as forwards. Smith, Slade and Nowell put in superb full-game shifts. Even though he came off early, I thought Marchant was splendid and definitely should stay at 13.

Agreed. If we can show that level of ferocity and passion with 15 players, we’ll be very hard to beat. That doesn’t address the lack of attack*, but we’re probably at the point where we need to start somewhere …

*I sort of give them a bit of a pass for yesterday. We were so stretched and expending so much energy (particularly in the pack) that I don’t think we could have played more than a few phases without running out of gas. TBH, kicking was the only viable strategy.

Scrumhead wrote:Agreed. If we can show that level of ferocity and passion with 15 players, we’ll be very hard to beat. That doesn’t address the lack of attack*, but we’re probably at the point where we need to start somewhere …

*I sort of give them a bit of a pass for yesterday. We were so stretched and expending so much energy (particularly in the pack) that I don’t think we could have played more than a few phases without running out of gas. TBH, kicking was the only viable strategy.

To what extent might a proper level of application break up play in defence and produce attacking opportunities? Similarly, in attack, at the breakdown, true ferocity (to use your word) gets early front-foot ball and exposes the opposition defence. So, maybe, full-blooded application could be the catalyst to developing the attack.

Also, there is a snowball effect: that extra effort in kick-chasing; the confidence/fitness to do the extra bit when we have the ball (in terms of getting on the team-mate's shoulder); the nerve to try things; individual self-belief etc.

One other small thought. Did the adversity of being a man down for 78 minutes automatically simplify everything? What's not to understand about going balls-out or get stuffed? Maybe, KISS remains the best way?

Again. I agree.

Watching England is depressing ATM. Definitely more of a chore than pleasure.

Kind of says it all when our best performance of this 6N is ‘heroic’ defeat. Don’t get me wrong, I applaud yesterday’s effort and I thought we reacted brilliantly but when that’s as good as it gets, it’s a real worry.

I wonder if this is how it feels to be Scottish?

Scrumhead wrote:Again. I agree.

Watching England is depressing ATM. Definitely more of a chore than pleasure.

Kind of says it all when our best performance of this 6N is ‘heroic’ defeat. Don’t get me wrong, I applaud yesterday’s effort and I thought we reacted brilliantly but when that’s as good as it gets, it’s a real worry.

I wonder if this is how it feels to be Scottish?

Without stirring up old debates too much, I have felt that way ever since 2019. I keep thinking I must just be pessimistic and Jones will have a grand plan rising to fruition any time soon. But, not so far . . .

Still, Owen will be back soon to cheer us all up.

Tough and enjoyable watch. A few boys became men yesterday.
Itoje, Genge, Simmonds and Nowell first rate.

I can only assume Marchant was injured so we had little choice but to keep the dreadful Malins on the pitch, as I am at a loss why we thought Daly slipping in at 13 would see us home.

Even a random member of the security team is a better tackler than Ewels.

Mellsblue wrote:

Even a random member of the security team is a better tackler than Ewels.

Yep, what a fucking prick that guy is. I guess it's just not practical to stop one specific person buying tickets or getting in the stadium.