RugbyRebels

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
But what even could that be? Basically the only thing I can think of would be for him to pick up his speaking notes from the wrong side of his desk drawer and start arguing passionately for a second referendum.

Puja

he could say the 350 million was made up; he could say no chance of being out by end Oct; he could say something overtly racist. Loads of traps that could see non ERG MPs give him the elbow. The laxatives was also a clue

Shit has been spewing out of Boris for years, so far it's only making him the favourite

ok. well lets hope he says something sensible which alienates the twonks who support him

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: he could say the 350 million was made up; he could say no chance of being out by end Oct; he could say something overtly racist. Loads of traps that could see non ERG MPs give him the elbow. The laxatives was also a clue

Shit has been spewing out of Boris for years, so far it's only making him the favourite

ok. well lets hope he says something sensible which alienates the twonks who support him

They're all Thatcher fans one presumes, which is to say not for turning

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
Shit has been spewing out of Boris for years, so far it's only making him the favourite

ok. well lets hope he says something sensible which alienates the twonks who support him

They're all Thatcher fans one presumes, which is to say not for turning

they likely thought Thatcher a bit centre ground and too nice to Europe

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:
ok. well lets hope he says something sensible which alienates the twonks who support him

They're all Thatcher fans one presumes, which is to say not for turning

they likely thought Thatcher a bit centre ground and too nice to Europe

Thatcher reminds of many of their current leadership aspirants, saying rude things about Europe in the media and failing to deliver what should have been much more beneficial deals in practice

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
They're all Thatcher fans one presumes, which is to say not for turning

they likely thought Thatcher a bit centre ground and too nice to Europe

Thatcher reminds of many of their current leadership aspirants, saying rude things about Europe in the media and failing to deliver what should have been much more beneficial deals in practice

Thatcher got good deals out of the EU iirc

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: they likely thought Thatcher a bit centre ground and too nice to Europe

Thatcher reminds of many of their current leadership aspirants, saying rude things about Europe in the media and failing to deliver what should have been much more beneficial deals in practice

Thatcher got good deals out of the EU iirc

Yeah, I was going to say myself - at least Thatcher got stuff done. Granted, a lot of it was stuff that we wished she hadn't, but she had a capacity for accomplishment well outside the reach of most of the Tory candidates.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
Thatcher reminds of many of their current leadership aspirants, saying rude things about Europe in the media and failing to deliver what should have been much more beneficial deals in practice

Thatcher got good deals out of the EU iirc

Yeah, I was going to say myself - at least Thatcher got stuff done. Granted, a lot of it was stuff that we wished she hadn't, but she had a capacity for accomplishment well outside the reach of most of the Tory candidates.

Puja

Was back in the UK recently and watched the Thatcher documentary with my dad. Said I admired that she had a plan and an idea of what she wanted and stuck to it...

Which he interpreted as me liking her.

Also, I was trying to explain about thinking about the people you're going to fuck up before you fuck them up and how Thatcher didn't give a rats arse aboug the miners... He thought I was an imbecile, of course, but then Hessletine came on and said the exact same thing.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
Thatcher reminds of many of their current leadership aspirants, saying rude things about Europe in the media and failing to deliver what should have been much more beneficial deals in practice

Thatcher got good deals out of the EU iirc

Yeah, I was going to say myself - at least Thatcher got stuff done. Granted, a lot of it was stuff that we wished she hadn't, but she had a capacity for accomplishment well outside the reach of most of the Tory candidates.

Puja

Fraid so, generally did what it said on the tin, like it or lump it.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: Thatcher got good deals out of the EU iirc

Yeah, I was going to say myself - at least Thatcher got stuff done. Granted, a lot of it was stuff that we wished she hadn't, but she had a capacity for accomplishment well outside the reach of most of the Tory candidates.

Puja

Fraid so, generally did what it said on the tin, like it or lump it.

The take on her in the EU, or at least in Germany and France, is she could have gotten better deals but didn't largely because of some daft posturing. Now maybe she did what was on the tin label, but if so that label was a little simplistic and all too often missing the point

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Yeah, I was going to say myself - at least Thatcher got stuff done. Granted, a lot of it was stuff that we wished she hadn't, but she had a capacity for accomplishment well outside the reach of most of the Tory candidates.

Puja

Fraid so, generally did what it said on the tin, like it or lump it.

The take on her in the EU, or at least in Germany and France, is she could have gotten better deals but didn't largely because of some daft posturing. Now maybe she did what was on the tin label, but if so that label was a little simplistic and all too often missing the point

You are so well connected, I'm aghast.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: Fraid so, generally did what it said on the tin, like it or lump it.

The take on her in the EU, or at least in Germany and France, is she could have gotten better deals but didn't largely because of some daft posturing. Now maybe she did what was on the tin label, but if so that label was a little simplistic and all too often missing the point

You are so well connected, I'm aghast.

There would be any number of politicians and diplomats across Europe who've gone public with such assessment, that being seen to be strong was more important than being strong

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
The take on her in the EU, or at least in Germany and France, is she could have gotten better deals but didn't largely because of some daft posturing. Now maybe she did what was on the tin label, but if so that label was a little simplistic and all too often missing the point

You are so well connected, I'm aghast.

There would be any number of politicians and diplomats across Europe who've gone public with such assessment, that being seen to be strong was more important than being strong

I will have a hunt for such views. Dave obviously missed out too in bringing new unicorns back prior to the referendum; I do seem to remember most pro EU pundits saying we had the best deal of the members, but maybe I misremember.

To be clear, are you saying the rebate battle won was a Pyrrhic victory, and what other deals could she have gotten with a more conciliatory point of view? She was a key contributor to the creation of the single market, if vehemently opposed to political integration.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Yeah, I was going to say myself - at least Thatcher got stuff done. Granted, a lot of it was stuff that we wished she hadn't, but she had a capacity for accomplishment well outside the reach of most of the Tory candidates.

Puja

Fraid so, generally did what it said on the tin, like it or lump it.

The take on her in the EU, or at least in Germany and France, is she could have gotten better deals but didn't largely because of some daft posturing. Now maybe she did what was on the tin label, but if so that label was a little simplistic and all too often missing the point

However, by playing the Iron Lady card to her party, she was able to sell the EU deal.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: Fraid so, generally did what it said on the tin, like it or lump it.

The take on her in the EU, or at least in Germany and France, is she could have gotten better deals but didn't largely because of some daft posturing. Now maybe she did what was on the tin label, but if so that label was a little simplistic and all too often missing the point

However, by playing the Iron Lady card to her party, she was able to sell the EU deal.

One general observation is that those who were around and capable of understanding the situation in the UK in the late 60's through to the late 80's would have a different (that's not to say right) perspective on events and how they played out, and not just related to the EU.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: You are so well connected, I'm aghast.

There would be any number of politicians and diplomats across Europe who've gone public with such assessment, that being seen to be strong was more important than being strong

I will have a hunt for such views. Dave obviously missed out too in bringing new unicorns back prior to the referendum; I do seem to remember most pro EU pundits saying we had the best deal of the members, but maybe I misremember.

To be clear, are you saying the rebate battle won was a Pyrrhic victory, and what other deals could she have gotten with a more conciliatory point of view? She was a key contributor to the creation of the single market, if vehemently opposed to political integration.

The rebate isn't nothing, though it took a long time and our contentions during that period drove a lot of the desire for many mandarins in Germany and France to seek close integration to avoid future problems with the UK, and Thatcher certainly didn't want a lot of the closer political ties.

What seems to return over and over is how much effort was put into making Thatcher seem like the winner so she could have better control of the media narrative in the UK. In defence of Thatcher she doesn't control the UK media not much of the public assessment of the EU, and it was and obviously is a tricky sell, and I don't know to what degree she simply had to overcome a lot of misogyny in her dealings with other EU leaders, but one would have to assume she saw value in being strident to overcome a hurdle that shouldn't have been faced.

I'd also note having to have the rebate is a failing, though whether anybody could have harangued the EU into sensible reforms of the CAP I do rather doubt

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
There would be any number of politicians and diplomats across Europe who've gone public with such assessment, that being seen to be strong was more important than being strong

I will have a hunt for such views. Dave obviously missed out too in bringing new unicorns back prior to the referendum; I do seem to remember most pro EU pundits saying we had the best deal of the members, but maybe I misremember.

To be clear, are you saying the rebate battle won was a Pyrrhic victory, and what other deals could she have gotten with a more conciliatory point of view? She was a key contributor to the creation of the single market, if vehemently opposed to political integration.

The rebate isn't nothing, though it took a long time and our contentions during that period drove a lot of the desire for many mandarins in Germany and France to seek close integration to avoid future problems with the UK, and Thatcher certainly didn't want a lot of the closer political ties.

What seems to return over and over is how much effort was put into making Thatcher seem like the winner so she could have better control of the media narrative in the UK. In defence of Thatcher she doesn't control the UK media not much of the public assessment of the EU, and it was and obviously is a tricky sell, and I don't know to what degree she simply had to overcome a lot of misogyny in her dealings with other EU leaders, but one would have to assume she saw value in being strident to overcome a hurdle that shouldn't have been faced.

I'd also note having to have the rebate is a failing, though whether anybody could have harangued the EU into sensible reforms of the CAP I do rather doubt

Well quite. Can I ask how old you were in the mid 80's?

And the rebate (s) continue....

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:
I will have a hunt for such views. Dave obviously missed out too in bringing new unicorns back prior to the referendum; I do seem to remember most pro EU pundits saying we had the best deal of the members, but maybe I misremember.

To be clear, are you saying the rebate battle won was a Pyrrhic victory, and what other deals could she have gotten with a more conciliatory point of view? She was a key contributor to the creation of the single market, if vehemently opposed to political integration.

The rebate isn't nothing, though it took a long time and our contentions during that period drove a lot of the desire for many mandarins in Germany and France to seek close integration to avoid future problems with the UK, and Thatcher certainly didn't want a lot of the closer political ties.

What seems to return over and over is how much effort was put into making Thatcher seem like the winner so she could have better control of the media narrative in the UK. In defence of Thatcher she doesn't control the UK media not much of the public assessment of the EU, and it was and obviously is a tricky sell, and I don't know to what degree she simply had to overcome a lot of misogyny in her dealings with other EU leaders, but one would have to assume she saw value in being strident to overcome a hurdle that shouldn't have been faced.

I'd also note having to have the rebate is a failing, though whether anybody could have harangued the EU into sensible reforms of the CAP I do rather doubt

Well quite. Can I ask how old you were in the mid 80's?

And the rebate (s) continue....

7 to 8, and whilst I started early with an interest in politics it hadn't kicked in quite that early. Maradona's handball was of much more importance to me back then, so too having to kiss a girl called Sally as part of a dare to secure the return of a stone stolen from my garden, not a valuable stone in a monetary sense, it was merely a very big stone and accordingly of some value to a group of 6-7 year olds

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
The rebate isn't nothing, though it took a long time and our contentions during that period drove a lot of the desire for many mandarins in Germany and France to seek close integration to avoid future problems with the UK, and Thatcher certainly didn't want a lot of the closer political ties.

What seems to return over and over is how much effort was put into making Thatcher seem like the winner so she could have better control of the media narrative in the UK. In defence of Thatcher she doesn't control the UK media not much of the public assessment of the EU, and it was and obviously is a tricky sell, and I don't know to what degree she simply had to overcome a lot of misogyny in her dealings with other EU leaders, but one would have to assume she saw value in being strident to overcome a hurdle that shouldn't have been faced.

I'd also note having to have the rebate is a failing, though whether anybody could have harangued the EU into sensible reforms of the CAP I do rather doubt

Well quite. Can I ask how old you were in the mid 80's?

And the rebate (s) continue....

7 to 8, and whilst I started early with an interest in politics it hadn't kicked in quite that early. Maradona's handball was of much more importance to me back then, so too having to kiss a girl called Sally as part of a dare to secure the return of a stone stolen from my garden, not a valuable stone in a monetary sense, it was merely a very big stone and accordingly of some value to a group of 6-7 year olds

Snowballs to Absinthe is quite a leap

At this point I just give up.

twitchy wrote:At this point I just give up.

Even I do. FML.

That's incredible - the dissolution of the UK, massive recession, the destruction of their party, all fine. But Corbyn being Prime Minister? Oh no, that's a step too far!

Puja

twitchy wrote:At this point I just give up.

This is an ideological crusade. Any rationality disappeared years ago; the leavers have had the best part of 3 decades to get angry about this and no one, not even the pro-EU New Labour made any real attempt to oppose the steady drop, drop, drop of anti EU propaganda.

Sandydragon wrote:

twitchy wrote:At this point I just give up.

This is an ideological crusade. Any rationality disappeared years ago; the leavers have had the best part of 3 decades to get angry about this and no one, not even the pro-EU New Labour made any real attempt to oppose the steady drop, drop, drop of anti EU propaganda.

Let’s be honest, there are plenty of good reasons to criticise the EU and they are glacial about doing anything about it, and they’ve made plenty of decisions that have stoked that anger. Not that it means we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'm curious how poll option number 4 was put to them.

twitchy wrote:At this point I just give up.

Mentalists