Re: Brexit delayed
Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:57 pm
This has to be one of the most spectacular painting of oneself into a corner in political history.
Hopefully the law can specifically outlaw the use of the veto.Mellsblue wrote:Per the Sunday Times, if parliament passes a law demanding the govt. ask the EU for an extension then Johnson will use the UK’s veto to kill any extension. If that were to happen we’d surely have reached peak Brexit and I will simultaneously both laugh and cry.
It's six more days, which is a third of the time remaining at a time when Parliamentary business is already heavily squeezed, and that assumes that parliament would have taken the maximum amount of time for conferences. If he'd prorogued for a more standard 7 days, I'd buy it was standard behaviour. 35 days can fuck right off.Mellsblue wrote:Playing devils advocate.....
The prorogation of Parliament is only four more days than would usually seen over conference season. Opponents will, correctly, argue that this supersedes conference and parliament would’ve sat during that period. Everyone else will ask why, yet again, everything is going down to the wire.
Remainers/Bercow have already torn up parliamentary convention this year. Not to the same extent, I’d argue, but certainly on more occasions.
A plague on both their houses.
Does 6 include a weekend? I’ll assume yes as you’ve included weekends in your days count. Tbh, even counting Fridays is a bit of a stretch. IIRC, every source I’ve read says four.Puja wrote:It's six more days, which is a third of the time remaining at a time when Parliamentary business is already heavily squeezed, and that assumes that parliament would have taken the maximum amount of time for conferences. If he'd prorogued for a more standard 7 days, I'd buy it was standard behaviour. 35 days can fuck right off.Mellsblue wrote:Playing devils advocate.....
The prorogation of Parliament is only four more days than would usually seen over conference season. Opponents will, correctly, argue that this supersedes conference and parliament would’ve sat during that period. Everyone else will ask why, yet again, everything is going down to the wire.
Remainers/Bercow have already torn up parliamentary convention this year. Not to the same extent, I’d argue, but certainly on more occasions.
A plague on both their houses.
Bercow did screw with parliamentary convention, but I've got a lot more time for what he did as it was to allow more Parliamentary debate, rather than allowing the executive to railroad the discussion. This is the opposite.
Puja
Do they normally prorogue parliament during conference season? I thought they specifically had the MPs vote for a recess which doesn't have the additional impact of closing all committees, of ending the process of any bill open before the houses, of removing the possibility of asking questions of the government in parliament. So this whole process is, I thought, really very differentMellsblue wrote:Does 6 include a weekend? I’ll assume yes as you’ve included weekends in your days count. Tbh, even counting Fridays is a bit of a stretch. IIRC, every source I’ve read says four.Puja wrote:It's six more days, which is a third of the time remaining at a time when Parliamentary business is already heavily squeezed, and that assumes that parliament would have taken the maximum amount of time for conferences. If he'd prorogued for a more standard 7 days, I'd buy it was standard behaviour. 35 days can fuck right off.Mellsblue wrote:Playing devils advocate.....
The prorogation of Parliament is only four more days than would usually seen over conference season. Opponents will, correctly, argue that this supersedes conference and parliament would’ve sat during that period. Everyone else will ask why, yet again, everything is going down to the wire.
Remainers/Bercow have already torn up parliamentary convention this year. Not to the same extent, I’d argue, but certainly on more occasions.
A plague on both their houses.
Bercow did screw with parliamentary convention, but I've got a lot more time for what he did as it was to allow more Parliamentary debate, rather than allowing the executive to railroad the discussion. This is the opposite.
Puja
Like I said, Boris’s manoeuvre is the worst of all, so far, but I’ve no time for anybody breaking convention/undermining the constitution to suit their own aims. There’s also an argument of Bercow reaping the weeds he has sown. Why should Brexiteers play fair if Remainers don’t.
In my understanding (which may be incomplete), they are very different. I understood Prorogation to be the formal end of a Parliamentary Session, so as you say, all business is terminated. A Recess is a pause in business.Digby wrote:Do they normally prorogue parliament during conference season? I thought they specifically had the MPs vote for a recess which doesn't have the additional impact of closing all committees, of ending the process of any bill open before the houses, of removing the possibility of asking questions of the government in parliament. So this whole process is, I thought, really very differentMellsblue wrote:Does 6 include a weekend? I’ll assume yes as you’ve included weekends in your days count. Tbh, even counting Fridays is a bit of a stretch. IIRC, every source I’ve read says four.Puja wrote:
It's six more days, which is a third of the time remaining at a time when Parliamentary business is already heavily squeezed, and that assumes that parliament would have taken the maximum amount of time for conferences. If he'd prorogued for a more standard 7 days, I'd buy it was standard behaviour. 35 days can fuck right off.
Bercow did screw with parliamentary convention, but I've got a lot more time for what he did as it was to allow more Parliamentary debate, rather than allowing the executive to railroad the discussion. This is the opposite.
Puja
Like I said, Boris’s manoeuvre is the worst of all, so far, but I’ve no time for anybody breaking convention/undermining the constitution to suit their own aims. There’s also an argument of Bercow reaping the weeds he has sown. Why should Brexiteers play fair if Remainers don’t.
Nope. Normally recess, as you probably well know. For all intents and purposes its 90% the same. I’m again getting into territory of defending something I disagree with, I’m just pissed off with the hysteria, hyperbole and ridiculous stances like ‘stop the coup’.Digby wrote:Do they normally prorogue parliament during conference season? I thought they specifically had the MPs vote for a recess which doesn't have the additional impact of closing all committees, of ending the process of any bill open before the houses, of removing the possibility of asking questions of the government in parliament. So this whole process is, I thought, really very differentMellsblue wrote:Does 6 include a weekend? I’ll assume yes as you’ve included weekends in your days count. Tbh, even counting Fridays is a bit of a stretch. IIRC, every source I’ve read says four.Puja wrote:
It's six more days, which is a third of the time remaining at a time when Parliamentary business is already heavily squeezed, and that assumes that parliament would have taken the maximum amount of time for conferences. If he'd prorogued for a more standard 7 days, I'd buy it was standard behaviour. 35 days can fuck right off.
Bercow did screw with parliamentary convention, but I've got a lot more time for what he did as it was to allow more Parliamentary debate, rather than allowing the executive to railroad the discussion. This is the opposite.
Puja
Like I said, Boris’s manoeuvre is the worst of all, so far, but I’ve no time for anybody breaking convention/undermining the constitution to suit their own aims. There’s also an argument of Bercow reaping the weeds he has sown. Why should Brexiteers play fair if Remainers don’t.
Agreed, other than them being very different. To bring a queens speech, which is normal for a new govt, you need to prorogue. It’s the length that, rightly, the issue.Stones of granite wrote:In my understanding (which may be incomplete), they are very different. I understood Prorogation to be the formal end of a Parliamentary Session, so as you say, all business is terminated. A Recess is a pause in business.Digby wrote:Do they normally prorogue parliament during conference season? I thought they specifically had the MPs vote for a recess which doesn't have the additional impact of closing all committees, of ending the process of any bill open before the houses, of removing the possibility of asking questions of the government in parliament. So this whole process is, I thought, really very differentMellsblue wrote: Does 6 include a weekend? I’ll assume yes as you’ve included weekends in your days count. Tbh, even counting Fridays is a bit of a stretch. IIRC, every source I’ve read says four.
Like I said, Boris’s manoeuvre is the worst of all, so far, but I’ve no time for anybody breaking convention/undermining the constitution to suit their own aims. There’s also an argument of Bercow reaping the weeds he has sown. Why should Brexiteers play fair if Remainers don’t.
Normally, there wouldn't be a Prorogation at this time, but as Johnson has taken over as PM it is understandable that there is one. What is not acceptable is that he is setting a precedent of using it as a political tactical weapon to undermine the sovereignty of Parliament.
it's not the same as a recess, every question before government pending an answer is closed, all the committees are closed, there's no demand the executive appear to answer questions, not even emergency questions. so where on earth are you plucking the figure of 90% the same from, and what's it based on? Also there's a world of difference between Bercow modifying procedure to take account of parliament, his job being at heart to allow the house to express its view, and modifying procedure to ignore parliament as with BorisMellsblue wrote:Nope. Normally recess, as you probably well know. For all intents and purposes its 90% the same. I’m again getting into territory of defending something I disagree with, I’m just pissed off with the hysteria, hyperbole and ridiculous stances like ‘stop the coup’.Digby wrote:Do they normally prorogue parliament during conference season? I thought they specifically had the MPs vote for a recess which doesn't have the additional impact of closing all committees, of ending the process of any bill open before the houses, of removing the possibility of asking questions of the government in parliament. So this whole process is, I thought, really very differentMellsblue wrote: Does 6 include a weekend? I’ll assume yes as you’ve included weekends in your days count. Tbh, even counting Fridays is a bit of a stretch. IIRC, every source I’ve read says four.
Like I said, Boris’s manoeuvre is the worst of all, so far, but I’ve no time for anybody breaking convention/undermining the constitution to suit their own aims. There’s also an argument of Bercow reaping the weeds he has sown. Why should Brexiteers play fair if Remainers don’t.
It’s a terrible move, for many reasons, but parliament started us down this road, both by making no deal the default and twisting parliamentary procedure to suit their own ends.
As I said, I plague on both their houses.
It’s no surprise that Gen Z, sorry if that phrase offends anyone, are losing faith in democracy.
In reality it’s 90% the same. With MPs all over the country for conference very little is done. There is a large difference between what is in the rule book and the reality on the ground.Digby wrote:it's not the same as a recess, every question before government pending an answer is closed, all the committees are closed, there's no demand the executive appear to answer questions, not even emergency questions. so where on earth are you plucking the figure of 90% the same from, and what's it based on? Also there's a world of difference between Bercow modifying procedure to take account of parliament, his job being at heart to allow the house to express its view, and modifying procedure to ignore parliament as with BorisMellsblue wrote:Nope. Normally recess, as you probably well know. For all intents and purposes its 90% the same. I’m again getting into territory of defending something I disagree with, I’m just pissed off with the hysteria, hyperbole and ridiculous stances like ‘stop the coup’.Digby wrote:
Do they normally prorogue parliament during conference season? I thought they specifically had the MPs vote for a recess which doesn't have the additional impact of closing all committees, of ending the process of any bill open before the houses, of removing the possibility of asking questions of the government in parliament. So this whole process is, I thought, really very different
It’s a terrible move, for many reasons, but parliament started us down this road, both by making no deal the default and twisting parliamentary procedure to suit their own ends.
As I said, I plague on both their houses.
It’s no surprise that Gen Z, sorry if that phrase offends anyone, are losing faith in democracy.
I think we're basically disagreeing on the use of the word reality at this pointMellsblue wrote:In reality it’s 90% the same. With MPs all over the country for conference very little is done. There is a large difference between what is in the rule book and the reality on the ground.Digby wrote:it's not the same as a recess, every question before government pending an answer is closed, all the committees are closed, there's no demand the executive appear to answer questions, not even emergency questions. so where on earth are you plucking the figure of 90% the same from, and what's it based on? Also there's a world of difference between Bercow modifying procedure to take account of parliament, his job being at heart to allow the house to express its view, and modifying procedure to ignore parliament as with BorisMellsblue wrote: Nope. Normally recess, as you probably well know. For all intents and purposes its 90% the same. I’m again getting into territory of defending something I disagree with, I’m just pissed off with the hysteria, hyperbole and ridiculous stances like ‘stop the coup’.
It’s a terrible move, for many reasons, but parliament started us down this road, both by making no deal the default and twisting parliamentary procedure to suit their own ends.
As I said, I plague on both their houses.
It’s no surprise that Gen Z, sorry if that phrase offends anyone, are losing faith in democracy.
We’ll have to agree to disagree about the relative severity of Bercow’s and Boris’s (Cumming’s) moves.
Fine. I’m happy with this. Those taking positions at either edge of the Brexit debate lost their grip on reality a good while ago.Digby wrote:I think we're basically disagreeing on the use of the word reality at this pointMellsblue wrote:In reality it’s 90% the same. With MPs all over the country for conference very little is done. There is a large difference between what is in the rule book and the reality on the ground.Digby wrote:
it's not the same as a recess, every question before government pending an answer is closed, all the committees are closed, there's no demand the executive appear to answer questions, not even emergency questions. so where on earth are you plucking the figure of 90% the same from, and what's it based on? Also there's a world of difference between Bercow modifying procedure to take account of parliament, his job being at heart to allow the house to express its view, and modifying procedure to ignore parliament as with Boris
We’ll have to agree to disagree about the relative severity of Bercow’s and Boris’s (Cumming’s) moves.
Which is fine as an observation save I'd think you've already fallen off the edge if you're equating prorugation with MPs voting for a recess and equating the actions of Bercow with Boris. Brexit continues to divide in opinion, even between those who're financially conservative and socially liberal(ish), and fail to conquer, and I can only see it getting worseMellsblue wrote:Fine. I’m happy with this. Those taking positions at either edge of the Brexit debate lost their grip on reality a good while ago.Digby wrote:I think we're basically disagreeing on the use of the word reality at this pointMellsblue wrote: In reality it’s 90% the same. With MPs all over the country for conference very little is done. There is a large difference between what is in the rule book and the reality on the ground.
We’ll have to agree to disagree about the relative severity of Bercow’s and Boris’s (Cumming’s) moves.
I’m not equating them. I’ve said all along they’re both terrible but with Boris's being worse. You’re the one defending Bercow for breaking convention/the constitution and ignoring the parliamentary clerks. Which is mad before you even get the fact he’s not even pretending to be neutral and is being kept in office despite serious HR allegations against him. All solely because he is a Remainer. I’ve also said that in reality the timing of the prorogation is not radically different to having a recess at this time. I’ve not mentioned the avenues towards bring either in to being. You’ve made that leap.Digby wrote:Which is fine as an observation save I'd think you've already fallen off the edge if you're equating prorugation with MPs voting for a recess and equating the actions of Bercow with Boris. Brexit continues to divide in opinion, even between those who're financially conservative and socially liberal(ish), and fail to conquer, and I can only see it getting worseMellsblue wrote:Fine. I’m happy with this. Those taking positions at either edge of the Brexit debate lost their grip on reality a good while ago.Digby wrote:
I think we're basically disagreeing on the use of the word reality at this point
Ha. A coup d’etat everyone would agree with.BBD wrote:I wish Id thought of Proroguing Rugby Rebels years ago
saying something is 90% the same has the ring of equating somethingMellsblue wrote:I’m not equating them. I’ve said all along they’re both terrible but with Boris's being worse. You’re the one defending Bercow for breaking convention/the constitution and ignoring the parliamentary clerks. Which is mad before you even get the fact he’s not even pretending to be neutral and is being kept in office despite serious HR allegations against him. All solely because he is a Remainer. I’ve also said that in reality the timing of the prorogation is not radically different to having a recess at this time. I’ve not mentioned the avenues towards bring either in to being. You’ve made that leap.Digby wrote:Which is fine as an observation save I'd think you've already fallen off the edge if you're equating prorugation with MPs voting for a recess and equating the actions of Bercow with Boris. Brexit continues to divide in opinion, even between those who're financially conservative and socially liberal(ish), and fail to conquer, and I can only see it getting worseMellsblue wrote: Fine. I’m happy with this. Those taking positions at either edge of the Brexit debate lost their grip on reality a good while ago.
If I have have fallen off the edge, with a bit of luck, you’ll cushion my landing.
The 90% was in the actually reality of the situation at this time of year - rather than the procedure to reach both and the rules once in place - and, in part, driven by cries such that we are in the midst of a coup. I do take your point, though. Should’ve gone 89.9%Digby wrote:saying something is 90% the same has the ring of equating somethingMellsblue wrote:I’m not equating them. I’ve said all along they’re both terrible but with Boris's being worse. You’re the one defending Bercow for breaking convention/the constitution and ignoring the parliamentary clerks. Which is mad before you even get the fact he’s not even pretending to be neutral and is being kept in office despite serious HR allegations against him. All solely because he is a Remainer. I’ve also said that in reality the timing of the prorogation is not radically different to having a recess at this time. I’ve not mentioned the avenues towards bring either in to being. You’ve made that leap.Digby wrote:
Which is fine as an observation save I'd think you've already fallen off the edge if you're equating prorugation with MPs voting for a recess and equating the actions of Bercow with Boris. Brexit continues to divide in opinion, even between those who're financially conservative and socially liberal(ish), and fail to conquer, and I can only see it getting worse
If I have have fallen off the edge, with a bit of luck, you’ll cushion my landing.
I'd take the point I went of the edge a while ago
And yes I do take a very different view on Bercow, who btw when he broke with tradition did include in the options being brought forward to the house some strong hard Brexit options alongside the pro deal, and anti no deal options. wanting to empower and listen to the house isn't the same as closing it down in the hope you can ignore them