RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Interesting stats....we conceded 10 pens to Wales extraordinary 2; we had 85% tackle count to Wales 91%. Great defence from Wales, although we were a tad inaccurate and kicky.

For all Faz did well, he also missed a huge number of tackles.

I thought that penalty count showed a terrible game by Garces - if we spent a second or two on the wrong side of a ruck then it was a penalty for slowing down the ball, which is fair enough in of itself, but the Welsh seemed to get 5 seconds of colour commentary advising them to "Release! Roll away! Release red!" and then when Care complained, he got a "The ball is there!" like it hadn't just been slowed down by Alun Wyn clinging onto it for dear life.

Fair enough the Welsh moaning about the TMO, but a couple of penalties actually being given rather than talked away by the ref and the complexion of the game is very different indeed.

Puja

I thought England were taking more penalty chances because they knew wales had no first choice place kicker on the field.

Buggaluggs wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Interesting stats....we conceded 10 pens to Wales extraordinary 2; we had 85% tackle count to Wales 91%. Great defence from Wales, although we were a tad inaccurate and kicky.

For all Faz did well, he also missed a huge number of tackles.

I thought that penalty count showed a terrible game by Garces - if we spent a second or two on the wrong side of a ruck then it was a penalty for slowing down the ball, which is fair enough in of itself, but the Welsh seemed to get 5 seconds of colour commentary advising them to "Release! Roll away! Release red!" and then when Care complained, he got a "The ball is there!" like it hadn't just been slowed down by Alun Wyn clinging onto it for dear life.

Fair enough the Welsh moaning about the TMO, but a couple of penalties actually being given rather than talked away by the ref and the complexion of the game is very different indeed.

Puja

I thought England were taking more penalty chances because they knew wales had no first choice place kicker on the field.

Hah! The idea that we're that tactically astute! I think we were just dumb and deservedly pinged, although it would've been nice if the referee's arm was able to point in both directions.

Puja

I was in a terrible mood today but I thought that was fucking awful and sort of wanted wales to score at the end just because. I can’t really explain it.

It’s a shame that Simmonds is now totally awful.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Interesting stats....we conceded 10 pens to Wales extraordinary 2; we had 85% tackle count to Wales 91%. Great defence from Wales, although we were a tad inaccurate and kicky.

For all Faz did well, he also missed a huge number of tackles.

I thought that penalty count showed a terrible game by Garces - if we spent a second or two on the wrong side of a ruck then it was a penalty for slowing down the ball, which is fair enough in of itself, but the Welsh seemed to get 5 seconds of colour commentary advising them to "Release! Roll away! Release red!" and then when Care complained, he got a "The ball is there!" like it hadn't just been slowed down by Alun Wyn clinging onto it for dear life.

Fair enough the Welsh moaning about the TMO, but a couple of penalties actually being given rather than talked away by the ref and the complexion of the game is very different indeed.

Puja

Agreed. What about that shout from the ref that 'the bsll is out' only for the player playing it to be penalised. The commentator said it was because he kicked it but if it was out, so what? Anbody seen it again to analyse?

Mikey Brown wrote:I was in a terrible mood today but I thought that was fucking awful and sort of wanted wales to score at the end just because. I can’t really explain it.

It’s a shame that Simmonds is now totally awful.

I did suggest before the game that Simmonds was being over-hyped after one game v Italy. I hope he gets a chance at 7 but it would be a risk.

How was Simmonds awful? He was a bit anonymous, but I don’t recall him doing anything obviously poor?

Reflecting on the game it felt like we came out of the blocks and forced the tempo at the beginning of both halves but couldn’t sustain the pressure. I don’t want to overstate it, but I do think the 6 day turnaround was a factor.

I also think Eddie used the bench poorly. Usually he reads this really well, but I think he held on too long before making some changes (Mako was out on his feet before he went off).

Well that was appalling, a mix of some individual errors and frankly that the England system on attack is very specific and one that can come under pressure, a problem made worse by no blindside and no openside flankers. I actually thought some of our pick and go game was a nice addition to the more standard attack, though it was undermined by some individual errors and also some of the selection.

Fair play to the Wales set piece as they really got into England and never gave the platform to attack from that England are too reliant on, thank god Eddie arranged away day scrum training as that clearly wasn't just a waste of sodding time, and England are a tad fortunate that the Wales attack was even less potent than England's and that Wales kicked appallingly.

Scrumhead wrote:How was Simmonds awful? He was a bit anonymous, but I don’t recall him doing anything obviously poor?

Reflecting on the game it felt like we came out of the blocks and forced the tempo at the beginning of both halves but couldn’t sustain the pressure. I don’t want to overstate it, but I do think the 6 day turnaround was a factor.

I also think Eddie used the bench poorly. Usually he reads this really well, but I think he held on too long before making some changes (Mako was out on his feet before he went off).

I thought Simmonds worked reasonably hard and was in no way awful, and given our problems started in the setpiece that can't mostly be on Simmonds other than in maybe a couple of instances not using ball from the base of the scrum (and even that might be as per his instructions)

Timbo wrote:For those who haven’t done so already, take a look at the full clip of the Scott Williams/Sam Underhill non try. See Underhills tracking back, it’s brilliant. When Shingler makes the half break and offloads Underhill is on the floor.

Agreed. Tbf to the commentary team they did highlight it in the post match comments.

Digby wrote: Fair play to the Wales set piece as they really got into England and never gave the platform to attack from that England are too reliant on, thank god Eddie arranged away day scrum training as that clearly wasn't just a waste of sodding time, and England are a tad fortunate that the Wales attack was even less potent than England's and that Wales kicked appallingly.

Wales defo had us at scrumtime. I continue to be worried that Eddie views our scrum as better than it is.

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Interesting stats....we conceded 10 pens to Wales extraordinary 2; we had 85% tackle count to Wales 91%. Great defence from Wales, although we were a tad inaccurate and kicky.

For all Faz did well, he also missed a huge number of tackles.

I thought that penalty count showed a terrible game by Garces - if we spent a second or two on the wrong side of a ruck then it was a penalty for slowing down the ball, which is fair enough in of itself, but the Welsh seemed to get 5 seconds of colour commentary advising them to "Release! Roll away! Release red!" and then when Care complained, he got a "The ball is there!" like it hadn't just been slowed down by Alun Wyn clinging onto it for dear life.

Fair enough the Welsh moaning about the TMO, but a couple of penalties actually being given rather than talked away by the ref and the complexion of the game is very different indeed.

Puja

Agreed. What about that shout from the ref that 'the bsll is out' only for the player playing it to be penalised. The commentator said it was because he kicked it but if it was out, so what? Anbody seen it again to analyse?

The was out and then we tackled the Welsh scrumhalf without the ball.

Oakboy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I was in a terrible mood today but I thought that was fucking awful and sort of wanted wales to score at the end just because. I can’t really explain it.

It’s a shame that Simmonds is now totally awful.

I did suggest before the game that Simmonds was being over-hyped after one game v Italy. I hope he gets a chance at 7 but it would be a risk.

So Hughes must have at least double digit caps before we’re allowed to judge him but Simmonds is automatically out of his depth after 40 mins against Wales?

Beasties wrote:

Timbo wrote:For those who haven’t done so already, take a look at the full clip of the Scott Williams/Sam Underhill non try. See Underhills tracking back, it’s brilliant. When Shingler makes the half break and offloads Underhill is on the floor.

Agreed. Tbf to the commentary team they did highlight it in the post match comments.

I was very surprised at that play, partly I have in mind Williams is quick and he certainly wasn't in that play, and then Williams tried to dive in from just over the halfway line when the pitch wasn't sodden in a way which suits the early dive. Great to see the defender really working hard though

I didn't think that Williams could've upped his chances any more than he did, the dive was defo the right option. It was just that Underhill's timing and direction of travel was perfect in that split second. I remain underwhelmed by parts of Underhill's game but that was a tremendous few seconds from him.

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I was in a terrible mood today but I thought that was fucking awful and sort of wanted wales to score at the end just because. I can’t really explain it.

It’s a shame that Simmonds is now totally awful.

I did suggest before the game that Simmonds was being over-hyped after one game v Italy. I hope he gets a chance at 7 but it would be a risk.

So Hughes must have at least double digit caps before we’re allowed to judge him but Simmonds is automatically out of his depth after 40 mins against Wales?

Apparently he has to score tries every game to be anything other than ‘totally awful’ or out of his depth.

He wasn’t great, but he wasn’t noticeably bad. I actually thought he was key to a lot of our better pick and go moments.

I thought I was one of the harsher critics on this board, but clearly not.

The amount of negativity is genuinely surprising to me. Has everyone forgotten how genuinely shocking we were in Cardiff last year?

Also, for all our concerns about the breakdown, Garces was our biggest problem there, not the Welsh players.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Interesting stats....we conceded 10 pens to Wales extraordinary 2; we had 85% tackle count to Wales 91%. Great defence from Wales, although we were a tad inaccurate and kicky.

For all Faz did well, he also missed a huge number of tackles.

I thought that penalty count showed a terrible game by Garces - if we spent a second or two on the wrong side of a ruck then it was a penalty for slowing down the ball, which is fair enough in of itself, but the Welsh seemed to get 5 seconds of colour commentary advising them to "Release! Roll away! Release red!" and then when Care complained, he got a "The ball is there!" like it hadn't just been slowed down by Alun Wyn clinging onto it for dear life.

Fair enough the Welsh moaning about the TMO, but a couple of penalties actually being given rather than talked away by the ref and the complexion of the game is very different indeed.

Puja

all that means is they played him better than us, assuming no bias; whatever way you look at it, 2 penalties is remarkable, given how much time we spent hammering away in periods.

Scrumhead wrote:
Also, for all our concerns about the breakdown, Garces was our biggest problem there, not the Welsh players.

More the system we use and selection. Our locks are decent over the ball for their roles but that's it from the players selected, and oddly that's not close to enough to offset a front row and back row who're more than a little limited.

Buggaluggs wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:Interesting stats....we conceded 10 pens to Wales extraordinary 2; we had 85% tackle count to Wales 91%. Great defence from Wales, although we were a tad inaccurate and kicky.

For all Faz did well, he also missed a huge number of tackles.

I thought that penalty count showed a terrible game by Garces - if we spent a second or two on the wrong side of a ruck then it was a penalty for slowing down the ball, which is fair enough in of itself, but the Welsh seemed to get 5 seconds of colour commentary advising them to "Release! Roll away! Release red!" and then when Care complained, he got a "The ball is there!" like it hadn't just been slowed down by Alun Wyn clinging onto it for dear life.

Fair enough the Welsh moaning about the TMO, but a couple of penalties actually being given rather than talked away by the ref and the complexion of the game is very different indeed.

Puja

I thought England were taking more penalty chances because they knew wales had no first choice place kicker on the field.

That's a low penalty count by our low standards; its the relativity that's striking for me.

Thought England looked better with Simmonds on the pitch than when he wasn’t. He was key in slowing down Welsh ball.

Beasties wrote:I didn't think that Williams could've upped his chances any more than he did, the dive was defo the right option. It was just that Underhill's timing and direction of travel was perfect in that split second. I remain underwhelmed by parts of Underhill's game but that was a tremendous few seconds from him.

I think he could have run in, and Underhill would'nt have anything to tackle into touch frankly. He dived too early.

Scrumhead wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
I did suggest before the game that Simmonds was being over-hyped after one game v Italy. I hope he gets a chance at 7 but it would be a risk.

So Hughes must have at least double digit caps before we’re allowed to judge him but Simmonds is automatically out of his depth after 40 mins against Wales?

Apparently he has to score tries every game to be anything other than ‘totally awful’ or out of his depth.

He wasn’t great, but he wasn’t noticeably bad. I actually thought he was key to a lot of our better pick and go moments.

I thought I was one of the harsher critics on this board, but clearly not.

The amount of negativity is genuinely surprising to me. Has everyone forgotten how genuinely shocking we were in Cardiff last year?

Also, for all our concerns about the breakdown, Garces was our biggest problem there, not the Welsh players.

I think it’s unfair to read too much in to his 40 mins. Mainly as a player of his qualities will naturally profit when players tire and gaps open. Picking on the instance he was stopped still on the gain line by a gang tackle is pretty harsh. We’ve seen Hughes go backwards in such situations and even Billy doesn’t always break the first tackle. I’d be happy for critism of his control at the base.

As for the game as a whole. I thought we went well. We could’ve done with a bit more in the Welsh 22 but I think the scoreline flattered them. A backrow of Robshaw, Simmonds and Billy would make a huge difference and, as Banquo pointed out, Daly on the wing, preferably with Watson at fullback, would’ve boosted our attacking options. As well as Brown played it was limited, defensive work with Wales playing into his hands. We should be blowing away a weakened Wales team and Brown’s solidity won’t help us do that.

Scrumhead wrote:The amount of negativity is genuinely surprising to me.

Really?

I used to be surprised at the constant criticism, now it’s pretty standard. ‘Corse everyone knows winning test matches is easy and England should do it at a canter.

Mellsblue wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: So Hughes must have at least double digit caps before we’re allowed to judge him but Simmonds is automatically out of his depth after 40 mins against Wales?

Apparently he has to score tries every game to be anything other than ‘totally awful’ or out of his depth.

He wasn’t great, but he wasn’t noticeably bad. I actually thought he was key to a lot of our better pick and go moments.

I thought I was one of the harsher critics on this board, but clearly not.

The amount of negativity is genuinely surprising to me. Has everyone forgotten how genuinely shocking we were in Cardiff last year?

Also, for all our concerns about the breakdown, Garces was our biggest problem there, not the Welsh players.

I think it’s unfair to read too much in to his 40 mins. Mainly as a player of his qualities will naturally profit when players tire and gaps open. Picking on the instance he was stopped still on the gain line by a gang tackle is pretty harsh. We’ve seen Hughes go backwards in such situations and even Billy doesn’t always break the first tackle. I’d be happy for critism of his control at the base.

As for the game as a whole. I thought we went well. We could’ve done with a bit more in the Welsh 22 but I think the scoreline flattered them. A backrow of Robshaw, Simmonds and Billy would make a huge difference and, as Banquo pointed out, Daly on the wing, preferably with Watson at fullback, would’ve boosted our attacking options. As well as Brown played it was limited, defensive work with Wales playing into his hands. We should be blowing away a weakened Wales team and Brown’s solidity won’t help us do that.

We kicked too much, and badly enough times to make the impression worse than the impact; our approach play was ok, until it got to the key play, when we did something daft- credit Wales' defence with some of that. We missed quite a lot of tackles as the game got looser, with our less mobile players being exposed.
Not a great hit out, in truth.

Having Marler and another scrum half (not Wigglesworth) would also have helped. Care did well enough until he tired, but is definitely better as an impact sub and Marler would have allowed Eddie to sub Mako off a lot sooner (or bring him on as a high impact finisher).

Timbo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:The amount of negativity is genuinely surprising to me.

Really?

I used to be surprised at the constant criticism, now it’s pretty standard. ‘Corse everyone knows winning test matches is easy and England should do it at a canter.

Negativity and criticism are different beasts. I actually feel positive about the direction of travel (namely, finding ways to win), albeit slower than I'd like, of this England team; however I am critical (though critics can be positive ) of several specific aspects of the team, mostly those that repeat or are caused by selection.
Of course we could ignore the faults and blindly praise, but it'd be a tad dull on here- and I'd expect Eddie to be just as critical.