We need to talk about Eddie...

[Digby]

Not sure what we could have done to arrange games against Oz or NZ, we're far too responsible for that when it comes to Covid!

Nonetheless we don't normally have this repetition of opponents, at least not normally without a spanner being thrown in the works

[Danno]

It's WoL, I'll wait for a more credible source. At worst, I'd reckon that any potential future coach has been sounded out, but WoL just can't get Warrenball(s) off of their chin.

[FKAS]

I agree WOL has a continuing hard on for Gats. I don't think they like how he's been a flop down in NZ. Gats success was built on the back of Edwards' defence. No Edwards no success. I'd rather keep Eddie then go down the Gats route. One of the most overrated coaches in modern rugby and cost us the chance of a Lion's win in NZ with that appalling team selection for the first game.

If we're going Kiwi then take a punt on Razor, the bloke is a serial winner at Super Rugby level. Crusaders play a completely different style of rugby. He may not work but it you want winning in style he's the obvious candidate. Unless you go for Lam but he took a long time to get Bristol to play how he wanted and at international level you don't get enough games to develop that style I don't think.

I'm sure the RFU will enquire and be turned down by Baxter first and foremost.

[Stom]

Don't blame me. I'd have had a new guy in years ago. It was you lot arguing for the status quo.

I do not want Gatland but we would be more consistent with him and I'd guess that the back-up coaching crew will be better. I'd say Jones is a '5 out of 10' head coach and Gatland is '6 out of 10'. We deserve better than either.

You're mad...

Gatland is never a better coach than Jones.

In fact, we can break down Gatland's career into 2 distinct chunks. Let's see which one is which, shall we?

Connacht - decent
Ireland - bad
Wasps - very good
Waikato - bad
Wales - good
Chiefs - very bad

Hmmm...

Gatland on his own: Connacht, Ireland, Waikato, Chiefs - decent, bad, bad, very bad.
Gatland with Shaun Edwards: Wasps, Wales - very good, good.

Yeah, Gatland's crap. Shaun Edwards is excellent. You want Gatland's success? Hire Edwards as defence coach.

I don't want Gatland anywhere near England, he's not a top rate coach.

[Oakboy]

Don't blame me. I'd have had a new guy in years ago. It was you lot arguing for the status quo.

I do not want Gatland but we would be more consistent with him and I'd guess that the back-up coaching crew will be better. I'd say Jones is a '5 out of 10' head coach and Gatland is '6 out of 10'. We deserve better than either.

You're mad...

Gatland is never a better coach than Jones.

In fact, we can break down Gatland's career into 2 distinct chunks. Let's see which one is which, shall we?

Connacht - decent
Ireland - bad
Wasps - very good
Waikato - bad
Wales - good
Chiefs - very bad

Hmmm...

Gatland on his own: Connacht, Ireland, Waikato, Chiefs - decent, bad, bad, very bad.
Gatland with Shaun Edwards: Wasps, Wales - very good, good.

Yeah, Gatland's crap. Shaun Edwards is excellent. You want Gatland's success? Hire Edwards as defence coach.

I don't want Gatland anywhere near England, he's not a top rate coach.

Yes, I'm mad. I don't like either of them but I'd say in 6N rugby where both England and Wales play, Gatland has been a better coach than Jones in terms of results.

Gatland won 3 GSs with Wales. Jones has won one with England. Now, no matter how much we disagree on lots of rugby issues, can we both agree that England, generally, in recent times, have had a better standard of squad than Wales? That is a factor that makes Gatland's Wales record better than Jones's England one.

As for Edwards, I agree and that is why I suggested that Gatland, based on his track record, would probably attract better support coaches.

[Stom]

Don't blame me. I'd have had a new guy in years ago. It was you lot arguing for the status quo.

I do not want Gatland but we would be more consistent with him and I'd guess that the back-up coaching crew will be better. I'd say Jones is a '5 out of 10' head coach and Gatland is '6 out of 10'. We deserve better than either.

You're mad...

Gatland is never a better coach than Jones.

In fact, we can break down Gatland's career into 2 distinct chunks. Let's see which one is which, shall we?

Connacht - decent
Ireland - bad
Wasps - very good
Waikato - bad
Wales - good
Chiefs - very bad

Hmmm...

Gatland on his own: Connacht, Ireland, Waikato, Chiefs - decent, bad, bad, very bad.
Gatland with Shaun Edwards: Wasps, Wales - very good, good.

Yeah, Gatland's crap. Shaun Edwards is excellent. You want Gatland's success? Hire Edwards as defence coach.

I don't want Gatland anywhere near England, he's not a top rate coach.

Yes, I'm mad. I don't like either of them but I'd say in 6N rugby where both England and Wales play, Gatland has been a better coach than Jones in terms of results.

Gatland won 3 GSs with Wales. Jones has won one with England. Now, no matter how much we disagree on lots of rugby issues, can we both agree that England, generally, in recent times, have had a better standard of squad than Wales? That is a factor that makes Gatland's Wales record better than Jones's England one.

As for Edwards, I agree and that is why I suggested that Gatland, based on his track record, would probably attract better support coaches.

Errr, Garland was with Wales 3x as long as Jones has been with England...

[Banquo]

Don't blame me. I'd have had a new guy in years ago. It was you lot arguing for the status quo.

I do not want Gatland but we would be more consistent with him and I'd guess that the back-up coaching crew will be better. I'd say Jones is a '5 out of 10' head coach and Gatland is '6 out of 10'. We deserve better than either.

You're mad...

Gatland is never a better coach than Jones.

In fact, we can break down Gatland's career into 2 distinct chunks. Let's see which one is which, shall we?

Connacht - decent
Ireland - bad
Wasps - very good
Waikato - bad
Wales - good
Chiefs - very bad

Hmmm...

Gatland on his own: Connacht, Ireland, Waikato, Chiefs - decent, bad, bad, very bad.
Gatland with Shaun Edwards: Wasps, Wales - very good, good.

Yeah, Gatland's crap. Shaun Edwards is excellent. You want Gatland's success? Hire Edwards as defence coach.

I don't want Gatland anywhere near England, he's not a top rate coach.

Yes, I'm mad. I don't like either of them but I'd say in 6N rugby where both England and Wales play, Gatland has been a better coach than Jones in terms of results.

Gatland won 3 GSs with Wales. Jones has won one with England. Now, no matter how much we disagree on lots of rugby issues, can we both agree that England, generally, in recent times, have had a better standard of squad than Wales? That is a factor that makes Gatland's Wales record better than Jones's England one.

As for Edwards, I agree and that is why I suggested that Gatland, based on his track record, would probably attract better support coaches.

Gatland had 55% win record from 130 games , Eddie Jones is still on 77% from 64 games, 5pp ahead of any previous England coach.

[Mellsblue]

What if Gats would bring Edwards with him?

[Puja]

What if Gats would bring Edwards with him?

Edwards is signed up with France till the next RWC. I don't see him as someone who leaves a job half done or who bails midway through a contract.

Puja

[Raggs]

What if Gats would bring Edwards with him?

Edwards is signed up with France till the next RWC. I don't see him as someone who leaves a job half done or who bails midway through a contract.

Puja

Especially when it seems to be going so well.

[fivepointer]

Find it odd that Gatland isnt regraded as a top coach.
Wales won 4 6N titles with him (3 GS's) and reached the RWC semi final twice.
Plus, he led the Lions to success in Australia in 2013 and got a series draw with NZ in 2017.
He may have had some lows, like most coaches, but his overall record is one that stands up pretty well.

[FKAS]

What if Gats would bring Edwards with him?

That would help but it's probably a big IF given Edwards has taken the job over in France as it was set up for him by his friend Rafael Ibanez who played under him at Wasps. England would have to pay a fortune to get Edwards in and I doubt Gatland would be cheap and all during a Covid hit financial period? Nah can't see that.

[Raggs]

Find it odd that Gatland isnt regraded as a top coach.
Wales won 4 6N titles with him (3 GS's) and reached the RWC semi final twice.
Plus, he led the Lions to success in Australia in 2013 and got a series draw with NZ in 2017.
He may have had some lows, like most coaches, but his overall record is one that stands up pretty well.

It is interesting that his lows and highs coincide with Edwards though. Especially as Edwards seems to be on a continued high with France, and Gats not so much.

[Mellsblue]

What if Gats would bring Edwards with him?

Edwards is signed up with France till the next RWC. I don't see him as someone who leaves a job half done or who bails midway through a contract.

Puja

Especially when it seems to be going so well.

Jones is signed up with a contract until the next World Cup and his tenure is going well......
Finances, win % etc etc all point to Jones likely not leaving. It was more of a thought exercise in response to numerous posts stating that historically Gatland = bad but Gatland & Edwards = good.

[Digby]

I saw the Gatland and Edwards coached Wales side, it was not good

[Banquo]

What if Gats would bring Edwards with him?

Edwards is signed up with France till the next RWC. I don't see him as someone who leaves a job half done or who bails midway through a contract.

Puja

Especially when it seems to be going so well.

well, they did lose to the 4th and 5th placed teams

[Banquo]

Find it odd that Gatland isnt regraded as a top coach.
Wales won 4 6N titles with him (3 GS's) and reached the RWC semi final twice.
Plus, he led the Lions to success in Australia in 2013 and got a series draw with NZ in 2017.
He may have had some lows, like most coaches, but his overall record is one that stands up pretty well.

I think he is, isn't he?

[Timbo]

He should be.

[Stom]

He should be.

Why?

He had club success in England with Edwards.

He had moderate nat success with Wales, with Edwards.

He had some moderate club success in Ireland without Edwards.

He's been pretty much universally crap otherwise...

Meanwhile, France are looking like the force of old suddenly. I wonder what they changed? Oh yeah, they've got Edwards...

[Scrumhead]

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. Gatland would not be my choice, but I do think he’s better than he’s being given credit for here. At the same time, Edwards has clearly made a massive difference when they’ve worked together.

How or why Oakboy thinks Eddie is a 5/10 and Gatland a 6/10 is predictably ridiculous and one-eyed as well as being grossly unfair (to both). I’d love to know who the 10/10 coaches are. Let me guess? Rob Baxter or maybe the as yet unidentified ‘under 45’ with a ‘proven track record of innovation’.

[Banquo]

He should be.

Why?

He had club success in England with Edwards.

He had moderate nat success with Wales, with Edwards.

He had some moderate club success in Ireland without Edwards.

He's been pretty much universally crap otherwise...

Meanwhile, France are looking like the force of old suddenly. I wonder what they changed? Oh yeah, they've got Edwards...

Somewhat harsh. a- having the sense to take a good coach wherever he goes shows, well sense b- his 12 years with Wales are more than moderate success, c- he did a cracking job on both Lions tours- winning a series in Australia is not trivial, and drawing with the AB's is a great effort, notwithstanding the opprobrium of FKAS d- he pulled Wasps up by their bootstraps and created a top club team. So other than (Say) 17 of his 23 years of coaching being very successful, he's been universally crap?

Oh, and France have been superb ball in hand. But they have lost to the 4th and 5th teams in the 6N, and arguably Wales were somewhat generous.

[Digby]

having the sense to take a good coach wherever he goes shows, well sense

Are you in fact the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air?

[Banquo]

having the sense to take a good coach wherever he goes shows, well sense

Are you in fact the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air?

No idea what you are on about,tbh.

[Oakboy]

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. Gatland would not be my choice, but I do think he’s better than he’s being given credit for here. At the same time, Edwards has clearly made a massive difference when they’ve worked together.

How or why Oakboy thinks Eddie is a 5/10 and Gatland a 6/10 is predictably ridiculous and one-eyed as well as being grossly unfair (to both). I’d love to know who the 10/10 coaches are. Let me guess? Rob Baxter or maybe the as yet unidentified ‘under 45’ with a ‘proven track record of innovation’.

Wow, you do like laying into me!

I think you are being too particular and critical really. Gatland and Jones are experienced international coaches though neither have won the RWC. IMO, both are unlikely to ever win it, though Gatland, got more out of Wales, relative to the standard of the players available, than Jones has done with England.

I think we agree that Baxter is unlikely to be England's next head coach. As for 10/10 coaches, they don't exist by definition. To achieve that standard a coach would need to win the RWC at least twice in succession or whatever.

I think it is much more simple than you imply. The RFU should not appoint losers just because they are experienced. Jones is a perennial loser. Quoting percentage wins is absolute bollix, IMO. How many crunch matches has he ever won? With England it is a grand total of one. And, before you mention 6N wins it has only been during his tenure that anybody has cared about that. Grand Slams used to be all that counted. This 6N, for example, there were two crunch matches (for various reasons of his making) - Scotland and Ireland. He lost both.

You keep asking me who I'd appoint and I can't give you an answer. Lam, Edwards and a good forwards coach would be the sort of inspirational crew that I would favour. We need a coaching outfit that would get the best out of the players more often than not.

[Digby]

having the sense to take a good coach wherever he goes shows, well sense

Are you in fact the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air?

No idea what you are on about,tbh.

well, sense Vs well sense

or maybe just nonsense