Team vs Scotland

[FKAS]

not only bad kicks, but poor options to kick. dire

Given the noted lack of chase and how deep Youngs kicked into the 22 I'd say that it was the tactics of the day. Kick long and deep knowing that the Scottish back three will kick into touch in their own half and we can attempt the rolling maul. Has tactics go it was both dull and optimistic given the relative lineout strengths.

The general game plan seemed to be kick to turn Scotland and pressure so we'd get set piece ball in their half.

As is usual in about one in three times he overdid it. It was poor decision making, even if the general plan was there; we actually kicked a lot less than Scotland as a % of possession. I note you abstain from criticising him, under the guise of game plan, but he is the most senior player and decision maker out there, and at some point we needed to actually try and score when near their 22- and those are the kicks that most irked me (he wasn't alone in kicking when there were better options, in fairness).

He didn't play well and if you look in the Italy thread I've agreed with the suggestion we bench him for next week. We need competition at 9, Youngs playing for 80 mins because the guy on the bench inspires no confidence is no good for anybody, including Youngs.

Youngs doesn't go off game plan for club or country. We know this. Eddie drops players that go off game plan. We know this. So saying he's a senior player he needs to switch up the game plan is pointless, it won't happen. If he ignored Eddie and did his own thing then he wouldn't have so many caps.

If the game plan was to kick long and let Scotland kick for our lineout then Ben will do that. Mix in a couple to contest to keep Scotland guessing but Youngs isn't about to break the script. No chance.

[Oakboy]

P/D, how dare you suggest that the players would be better without coaching!!!!

I was sat there shouting ‘change something!!!’. Thinking Nowell onto wing, Marchant to 12 and Slade back to 13 with Daly back on wing and Malins off ….. and then Ford trots on

Me too but I have to restrain myself all the time from booting the TV every time Youngs kicks so I sit there in a permanent state of disbelief. The head coach gets loads of opportunity to change things. Apart from half time and seven substitutions, there are spot kicks, injuries and every occasion that a water boy can sneak on. Then, as you have said, there is giving players the freedom to think for themselves. Can't have that, though. Farrell might not be needed back.

[Mellsblue]

P/D, how dare you suggest that the players would be better without coaching!!!!

I was sat there shouting ‘change something!!!’. Thinking Nowell onto wing, Marchant to 12 and Slade back to 13 with Daly back on wing and Malins off ….. and then Ford trots on

Me too but I have to restrain myself all the time from booting the TV every time Youngs kicks so I sit there in a permanent state of disbelief.

A sensible and healthy decision. I normally make a trip to the beer fridge.

[Mr Mwenda]

Who has Jones dropped for "going off-piste"?

[Banquo]

For a team packed with good runners and handlers, an inventive 10, with a mobile back row we contrived to do very little with the ball we had.
in a way this is the keenest disappointment.
I never expected our defence to be that great, but i did expect to see a bit of dash and enterprise with the ball. One try, a couple of half breaks and that was it. We never really stressed the Scottish defence, nor created many try scoring opportunities. I accept the weather wasnt ideal but it wasnt a monsoon and handling was perfectly possible.
On the LCD pen try. What the hell was he doing out on the wing anyway?

Exactly what I asked on the last point....and to your earlier point, our defence should have been better, but playing players out of position, one of whom was rusty, in a system that suited the way Russell attacks was very poor thinking, and that is down to Jones. We've messed around with the backs continually and it shows- the least you can expect is solid defence.

[Banquo]

Given the noted lack of chase and how deep Youngs kicked into the 22 I'd say that it was the tactics of the day. Kick long and deep knowing that the Scottish back three will kick into touch in their own half and we can attempt the rolling maul. Has tactics go it was both dull and optimistic given the relative lineout strengths.

The general game plan seemed to be kick to turn Scotland and pressure so we'd get set piece ball in their half.

As is usual in about one in three times he overdid it. It was poor decision making, even if the general plan was there; we actually kicked a lot less than Scotland as a % of possession. I note you abstain from criticising him, under the guise of game plan, but he is the most senior player and decision maker out there, and at some point we needed to actually try and score when near their 22- and those are the kicks that most irked me (he wasn't alone in kicking when there were better options, in fairness).

So saying he's a senior player he needs to switch up the game plan is pointless, it won't happen. If he ignored Eddie and did his own thing then he wouldn't have so many caps.

and so is this discussion in that case ...with a caveat, if you play to the game plan, at least execute well. The plan cannot have been to kick straight to a scots defender when we were in good attacking position- at least the other bad decisions by Daly and Slade to kick were decent kicks.

[Mellsblue]

Who has Jones dropped for "going off-piste"?

Care and Lozowski……. if the rumours are true.

[Banquo]

For a team packed with good runners and handlers, an inventive 10, with a mobile back row we contrived to do very little with the ball we had.
in a way this is the keenest disappointment.
I never expected our defence to be that great, but i did expect to see a bit of dash and enterprise with the ball. One try, a couple of half breaks and that was it. We never really stressed the Scottish defence, nor created many try scoring opportunities. I accept the weather wasnt ideal but it wasnt a monsoon and handling was perfectly possible.
On the LCD pen try. What the hell was he doing out on the wing anyway?

Interesting but contrasting reflections in your first and last sentences. We are supposed to believe in some wonderful new scheme of versatility. IMO, it is asking young, inexperienced players to run before they can walk. What is wrong with picking players in their correct positions, line up conventionally (Marchant at 13 etc.) and just play better than the opposition? The players were good enough yesterday. The system was not.

I agree, this was the XV that many wanted to see, give or take, but it was set up poorly. I hate to say it, but it was predictable.

[p/d]

I was sat there shouting ‘change something!!!’. Thinking Nowell onto wing, Marchant to 12 and Slade back to 13 with Daly back on wing and Malins off ….. and then Ford trots on

Me too but I have to restrain myself all the time from booting the TV every time Youngs kicks so I sit there in a permanent state of disbelief.

A sensible and healthy decision. I normally make a trip to the beer fridge.

I generally seek diversion by scanning the internet for unseen footage of page 3 babes from the 80’s. Alas, this time, I opted for seeing how QPR were doing against the Posh. Not a day of sport to look back on fondly

[Banquo]

I'll have to think about your latter assertion

More a "thinking out loud" but fair enough.

Thinking behind it is that most penalty tries seem to be given for high tackles or offside defending a ruck. The ref does chat with the TMO about what would happen had the tackle hit 4 inches lower, or the defender started 1 inch further back, but if someone else would have been in a position to make the tackle.

Thinking about it this morning though, it probably wouldn't make a different to the penalty tries for collapsing a maul, so not "virtually non-existent" but significantly fewer.

.

That looks a harder catch than I thought, the ball's more past him than above him.
I'd still like to have seen a genuine attempt at a catch though - which he doesn't even consider, at least a fumble would have been an accidental knock on and scrum with a full pack.
Even bailing out of it would have been a better decision - still scores level, but 15 v 15

Yes, I did think of that situation .

The other thing that I didn't pick up on, as I couldn't bear to re-watch, was whether the officials were certain that Graham would have caught it? Was there that debate? Don't get me wrong, I think a penalty try was probably the right call, simply because of the Luke Cowan- dickishness of the move, but the process would be 'interesting'

[Mr Mwenda]

Who has Jones dropped for "going off-piste"?

Care and Lozowski……. if the rumours are true.

Hardly massive losses to be fair. I don't remember either going off piste in a match either...

[p/d]

Who has Jones dropped for "going off-piste"?

Care and Lozowski……. if the rumours are true.

Hardly massive losses to be fair. I don't remember either going off piste in a match either...

Marler could be added to the list now

[Mellsblue]

Who has Jones dropped for "going off-piste"?

Care and Lozowski……. if the rumours are true.

Hardly massive losses to be fair. I don't remember either going off piste in a match either...

Care questioned Jones over tactics after the infamous Japan match and Loz freelanced during said match, allegedly.

[Mikey Brown]

Well this has been an entertaining read this morning.

I think I need to watch it back before I can really comment.

That’s not how the internet works. You make a snap decision based on little evidence and then you stick to it without fail.

Fair enough. You’ve got me there. Initial thoughts-

- Itoje hung Isiekwe out to dry
- There was little Marchant could do once Graham was through (with a lethal step/pace and men on both sides) - - Smith wasn’t incredible but given the comments about 9 and the balance outside that doesn’t seem like it should be that shocking really. This is just what Youngs is like, I don’t know why everyone is so shocked to be honest
- Dombrandt having to fight his way in if or a starting shirt is a good thing, though it’s a shame we can’t get him running off Smith and swapped them out at the same moment
- I’m not sure if Simmonds is only there push Dombrandt rather than Jones really finding a good use for him?
- Jones still never seems to get his subs right, agree that was a game for Nowell, what is the point of Randall? Will we have any scrumhalf with more than 3 caps when Youngs breaks his leg a week before the World Cup?
- does Genge ever make the impact that his rep would suggest,
- Ken O’Beefe maybe tried to be strict/pedantic for the good of the game but I did not enjoy his performance and neither team could be accurate disciplined enough to get much continuity out of it
- talking about LCD throwing it or one mistake blowing the game is just fucking lame, and if Scotland had fixed one of their crucial errors or had something else go their way too?
- Rugby as a game is just a confusing mess with too many rules simultaneously being applied, controversial decisions can’t really be avoided unless one team is 10+ points better than the other

[Oakboy]

MB, your comments about Genge have got me wondering and comparing with Ireland, say. Is there any unit of the team that is performing to its maximum? I'd think the front row ought to be settled and functioning at best, but it's not. The 2nd row can't survive an injury or two. The back row is Curry and two more on rotation with Lawes out etc. We look 3 or 4 years off a fully structured side whereas Ireland look settled and at a comfortable state for fine-tuning.

[Banquo]

MB, your comments about Genge have got me wondering and comparing with Ireland, say. Is there any unit of the team that is performing to its maximum? I'd think the front row ought to be settled and functioning at best, but it's not. The 2nd row can't survive an injury or two. The back row is Curry and two more on rotation with Lawes out etc. We look 3 or 4 years off a fully structured side whereas Ireland look settled and at a comfortable state for fine-tuning.

I don't think anyone is selecting markedly different players to Jones, esp up front. If we aren't looking sh*t hot, maybe its because we don't have the quality of players- we consistently over estimate how good our players are imo. For example, Genge has looked the best all round loose head in the prem- Marler a better tight player- but isn't all that internationally.

For me, for years, we have needed a better player in almost every unit, as the incumbents haven't been quite top notch; international coaches can improve players, but sometimes not enough. I haven't thought this through, but if you picked a world 23, how many England players would be in it....or even two world 23's...

all that said, I have run out of patience a bit with Jones. We were set up poorly yesterday, and that's down to him. Scotland did play pretty well, but even so, our defence was bad, our options were bad, and the subs were bad. Even the detail of WTAF was Marler doing throwing into a key lineout.....George should have already been on the park.

[badback]

MB, your comments about Genge have got me wondering and comparing with Ireland, say. Is there any unit of the team that is performing to its maximum? I'd think the front row ought to be settled and functioning at best, but it's not. The 2nd row can't survive an injury or two. The back row is Curry and two more on rotation with Lawes out etc. We look 3 or 4 years off a fully structured side whereas Ireland look settled and at a comfortable state for fine-tuning.

I don't think anyone is selecting markedly different players to Jones, esp up front. If we aren't looking sh*t hot, maybe its because we don't have the quality of players- we consistently over estimate how good our players are imo. For example, Genge has looked the best all round loose head in the prem- Marler a better tight player- but isn't all that internationally.

For me, for years, we have needed a better player in almost every unit, as the incumbents haven't been quite top notch; international coaches can improve players, but sometimes not enough. I haven't thought this through, but if you picked a world 23, how many England players would be in it....or even two world 23's...

all that said, I have run out of patience a bit with Jones. We were set up poorly yesterday, and that's down to him. Scotland did play pretty well, but even so, our defence was bad, our options were bad, and the subs were bad. Even the detail of WTAF was Marler doing throwing into a key lineout.....George should have already been on the park.

I must have somehow missed that. Marler threw in? That’s gotta have been comedy gold. Though seriously how on earth does that happen in an international or even professional set up??! Maybe they practice for having no hooker - but somehow I doubt it.

[Oakboy]

MB, your comments about Genge have got me wondering and comparing with Ireland, say. Is there any unit of the team that is performing to its maximum? I'd think the front row ought to be settled and functioning at best, but it's not. The 2nd row can't survive an injury or two. The back row is Curry and two more on rotation with Lawes out etc. We look 3 or 4 years off a fully structured side whereas Ireland look settled and at a comfortable state for fine-tuning.

I don't think anyone is selecting markedly different players to Jones, esp up front. If we aren't looking sh*t hot, maybe its because we don't have the quality of players- we consistently over estimate how good our players are imo. For example, Genge has looked the best all round loose head in the prem- Marler a better tight player- but isn't all that internationally.

For me, for years, we have needed a better player in almost every unit, as the incumbents haven't been quite top notch; international coaches can improve players, but sometimes not enough. I haven't thought this through, but if you picked a world 23, how many England players would be in it....or even two world 23's...

all that said, I have run out of patience a bit with Jones. We were set up poorly yesterday, and that's down to him. Scotland did play pretty well, but even so, our defence was bad, our options were bad, and the subs were bad. Even the detail of WTAF was Marler doing throwing into a key lineout.....George should have already been on the park.

Apparently, on that last point, we would have then had to see the match out without whoever George replaced - a reversible change can only occur at scrum time.

You have consistently maintained the view that I and others overestimate the standard of our players. I can't argue. Might Itoje make a 2nd 23 currently? He'd make a at least that if he was playing his best and that has always been my issue with Jones. How often have any of our players or any unit of the team put in a 'best possible'? Never mind, the whole team!

Go back a couple of years and I'd argue that there were few better wingers than Daly. Jones chose to wreck him as an overall contributor. Take that a stage further. Who has really impressed under Jones (or even matched their potential)? Curry, maybe. Smith potentially. Steward?

The list of under-performers is lengthy: Ford, Youngs, both Vunipolas, Itoje, JJ, Sinckler, George etc.

Opinion on all of them varies but I find it hard now to accurately categorise any player that Jones has coached. Maybe, someone like Wilson at least played to full potential as did Kruis perhaps? Neither were top class, IMO.

[Puja]

Even the detail of WTAF was Marler doing throwing into a key lineout.....George should have already been on the park.

I must have somehow missed that. Marler threw in? That’s gotta have been comedy gold. Though seriously how on earth does that happen in an international or even professional set up??! Maybe they practice for having no hooker - but somehow I doubt it.

The problem is that there had been no scrum and we'd used our back row replacement - if George came on, it'd have to be a permanent change, which means losing a back (so that Nowell could then come on for LCD), taking off Simmonds and having to replace him with Ewels after the sin bin, or taking off Isiekwe and leaving us 8 minutes with Dombrandt at second row. I'd've probably gone with the latter, but it's not an obvious choice.

Marler has played hooker before and is capable of throwing in (not brilliantly, but he can do it). It was actually Dombrandt who fucked that lineout - it was meant to be the pod going to the middle and him going to take it on a front peel move, but he went far too early, before the pod had retreated, and at far too high a speed. That meant that he had to dodge around the pod, meaning there was no straight throw possible and he was already in the 5m channel by the time the ball got to him.

Puja

[WaspInWales]

Not sure if Dawson's article has been posted...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60275340

No mention of Youngs.

From a former scrum half too.

Why is no-one beyond these forums talking about Youngs?

Why the fuck can't Eddie and his coaches see the intended recipients of Youngs' passes having to reach over their heads, behind them or at their feet to take most passes?

Then there's the painfully slow service. More often than not, the forwards deliver quick ball and everyone in attack seems to be set, in position and waiting and there's Ben, just fucking staring at the ball for 5 seconds, giving the opposition all the time they need to reset.

He has 112 caps and been massively shit for well over half of them.

[Oakboy]

Not sure if Dawson's article has been posted...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60275340

No mention of Youngs.

From a former scrum half too.

Why is no-one beyond these forums talking about Youngs?

Why the fuck can't Eddie and his coaches see the intended recipients of Youngs' passes having to reach over their heads, behind them or at their feet to take most passes?

Then there's the painfully slow service. More often than not, the forwards deliver quick ball and everyone in attack seems to be set, in position and waiting and there's Ben, just fucking staring at the ball for 5 seconds, giving the opposition all the time they need to reset.

He has 112 caps and been massively shit for well over half of them.

Maybe, Jones just does not concentrate on the SH position. Presumably, had Youngs been injured in the 1st minute, he would have been happy to go with Randall for 79. Why, then, not give him the last 15 to shake things up? None of it makes any sense.

[p/d]

I must have somehow missed that. Marler threw in? That’s gotta have been comedy gold. Though seriously how on earth does that happen in an international or even professional set up??! Maybe they practice for having no hooker - but somehow I doubt it.

Comedy it was. First Youngs wiped the ball - and I was convinced he had planned to take it - then Marler strolls over, takes the ball and amateur hour commences.

5m out from our line we played Russian roulette with a loaded gun. For all the downside of sacrificing a player we should have brought George on. Mind you in light of what followed no guarantee he would have done any better than Marler

[Danno]

I'd forgotten about that.

[Mikey Brown]

[Banquo]

Even the detail of WTAF was Marler doing throwing into a key lineout.....George should have already been on the park.

I must have somehow missed that. Marler threw in? That’s gotta have been comedy gold. Though seriously how on earth does that happen in an international or even professional set up??! Maybe they practice for having no hooker - but somehow I doubt it.

The problem is that there had been no scrum and we'd used our back row replacement - if George came on, it'd have to be a permanent change, which means losing a back (so that Nowell could then come on for LCD), taking off Simmonds and having to replace him with Ewels after the sin bin, or taking off Isiekwe and leaving us 8 minutes with Dombrandt at second row. I'd've probably gone with the latter, but it's not an obvious choice.

Marler has played hooker before and is capable of throwing in (not brilliantly, but he can do it). It was actually Dombrandt who fucked that lineout - it was meant to be the pod going to the middle and him going to take it on a front peel move, but he went far too early, before the pod had retreated, and at far too high a speed. That meant that he had to dodge around the pod, meaning there was no straight throw possible and he was already in the 5m channel by the time the ball got to him.

Puja

That’s what Jones is paid for on the earlier point. On the latter, they won’t have practiced it, and that’s not a culpable tbh.