Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Banquo]

Ha! I'm trying to imagine Itoje and Chessum hoisting Bumbling Billy V!

or, more usefully, Curry....

or a backrower with long arms

sounds armless

[FKAS]

or, more usefully, Curry....

or a backrower with long arms

sounds armless

More like armful.

[Banquo]

or a backrower with long arms

sounds armless

More like armful.

armageddon bored

[morepork]

sounds armless

More like armful.

armageddon bored

Cheer up. It's not the end of the world.

[Banquo]

More like armful.

armageddon bored

Cheer up. It's not the end of the world.

acropolis now

[Mellsblue]

Whilst we’re kicking and crying at Twickers the best player in the world is off to play Sevens, and expand his skill set, at the Olympics.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/france-c ... 023-11-16/

[monkey]

Whilst we’re kicking and crying at Twickers the best player in the world is off to play Sevens, and expand his skill set, at the Olympics.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/france-c ... 023-11-16/

Oh wow. It had been rumoured for a while (and I think was even discussed during the RWC coverage a bit). But I hadn’t realised the plan involved him missing things like the 6Ns. I’d kind of assumed the FRA were going to buy him out of club rugby or something like that!

[Oakboy]

Whilst we’re kicking and crying at Twickers the best player in the world is off to play Sevens, and expand his skill set, at the Olympics.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/france-c ... 023-11-16/

Oh wow. It had been rumoured for a while (and I think was even discussed during the RWC coverage a bit). But I hadn’t realised the plan involved him missing things like the 6Ns. I’d kind of assumed the FRA were going to buy him out of club rugby or something like that!

Does his decision reflect the general French opinion of the 6N or is there a hint of sour grapes following their RWC failure?

[Banquo]

Whilst we’re kicking and crying at Twickers the best player in the world is off to play Sevens, and expand his skill set, at the Olympics.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/france-c ... 023-11-16/

Oh wow. It had been rumoured for a while (and I think was even discussed during the RWC coverage a bit). But I hadn’t realised the plan involved him missing things like the 6Ns. I’d kind of assumed the FRA were going to buy him out of club rugby or something like that!

Does his decision reflect the general French opinion of the 6N or is there a hint of sour grapes following their RWC failure?

It reflects the fact that the Olympics are in Paris.

[Which Tyler]

I'd say that you really, REALLY need time dedicated to playing the sport.
6 months would probably be enough, but I'm not sure it's compatible with a full time club contract, as conditioning is just completely different, and you'd want to be playing 7s at lower levels as well as the international circuit - especially if you're expecting to be a playmaker there.

Also worth noting that France are pretty poor at 7s, so even without spending much time, he (and the few others who are rumoured) would probably improve the team more-or-less straight away.
Big ask to get them up to medal-challenging standard though, even if they do put the time in.

[francoisfou]

He's likely to participate in the 7s tournaments in Vancouver (Feb 23-25) and Los Angeles (March 2-3).

https://www.rugbyrama.fr/2023/11/15/xv- ... 581905.php

[Spiffy]

You see...I feel like that's the exact thinking that led us to this mess in the first place.

Only SA have a scrum. It's literally just them. If our entire thing is building up the part of our game that's going to nullify SA, that's the exact same thing we've been doing these past 8 years, and look where that got us.

No, if we want to compete, we need to improve our all round game and execution. And THEN add on the one world class element.

And while SA have shown that POWER can be the thing right now, that's not always going to be the case. If we can get ahead of the curve, we can win and win for a long time. But that means we don't just react to what just happened.

England rugby obviously needs to work on core skills and execution. Without that, we'll never get anywhere.

as I sort of think you are saying, it doesn't need to be one thing OR another. The whole skill of rugby selection and prep is/used to be the ability to vary game plan, and adjust to opposition during the game; I say used to be, because huge benches with tactical subs has somewhat neutered that (and SA in particular have really exploited that).

Exactly. Not saying copy SA. Just saying important to have forwards for tight as well as wide game.

Like Ireland, say, who have beaten the Boks in their last three encounters (inc. the RWC) with a pack than can play it tight or wide.

[Slater582]

Borthwick has said he ideally wants three options good enough for Test rugby per position. Although every England coach seems to have that as an ambition.

Anyway according to Chris Foy in the Daily Mail, squad for the Six Nations will be announced next week on January 4th.

The age profile of the squad and the fact that we have a few moving to France means we’re likely to see about a third of this squad change for the 6N.

Likely/confirmed retirements: Marler, Cole, Lawes, Youngs, Care, May

Time to move on: Farrell, Daly, Tuilagi, Watson

Ineligible: Ribbans, J. Willis, Marchant

Care is definitely not retiring and eager to get four more caps for his century. I'm hoping they will move on from him given in Mitchell, JVP, Quirke and a few others there is potential in that particular position imo. It is not like Care was a starter at the RWC either, rather being used as an impact sub.

Obviously Arundell is now also ineligible unfortunately and it'll be interesting to see if Ludlam is included.

We won't move away from the kick chase game plan. We might well add to it when our new attack coach arrives.

Collier hasn't got the work rate to play in a Borthwick team. Eddie famously subbed him early in a game for the same reason. For Cole's limitations he's very good at getting up and back into the line time and time again. That being said I can't see his swansong continuing so we'll be looking at Painter or Heyes.

What will be interesting is to see the number 8 role and selection come the 6N. Previously Borthwick has been desperately trying to unearth a physically dominant 8. A young BillyV or an EQ Jasper Weise. It didn't happen and the old BillyV has been a let down. With Earl at 8 that role has evolved. If it stays the way it is, does it then bring back in the more mobile 8s that didn't make the cut initially. Could be great news for Mercer for instance.

Has there any been any suggestion that Cole will retire? It's not a position of depth and suspect Borthwick would want to keep him around.

One of the big positives to come out of the world cup has been Earls showing what a bit of speed and dynamism off the back of the scrum can offer.

Hopefully he'll have provided an evidence base to convince Smoked Bratwurst that there is another way to having a big bloke running straight at the line to try to tie in multiple tacklers, and we can stop trying a rotating cast of unsuitable players trying to replicate 2016-19 Vunipola.

If we're ditching Lawes, and Martin looks like he can do the Kruis job next to Itoje, rather than dicking about as a 4/6 hybrid, then a backrow of Earl, Curry, Mercer, Ludlum, Willis, with Pearson or even someone like Chessum being used as an extra bulk at 6 if needed, looks like a solid approach to building a unit over the next 4 years. Assuming Curry's body doesn't stand up to another 4 years, we need to get one of the other athletes to be as good a reader of the game.

You know what's crazy? Tom curry is only 25. I did not realise that, he must have had a tough paper round. You'd think he'd be about for 2027 though.

Like Watson, bits of him are 25, but some rather important parts are increasingly patched up.

He may well be able to more naturally reshape and adapt to another role in the backrow, but he's at his best when he's mobile enough to get in place to maximise his phenomenal ability to read the game. I'd question how much longer he can do that for at the rate he seems to get banged up at.

Guess it's too much to hope these new central contracts will help prolong the International careers of Tom Curry, Underhill etc.

[jngf]

The age profile of the squad and the fact that we have a few moving to France means we’re likely to see about a third of this squad change for the 6N.

Likely/confirmed retirements: Marler, Cole, Lawes, Youngs, Care, May

Time to move on: Farrell, Daly, Tuilagi, Watson

Ineligible: Ribbans, J. Willis, Marchant

Foxtrot Oscar: B. Vunipola

I have a strange feeling Farrell might retire from England duty, but if not, we need to minimise his role.

The only ‘senior players’ I’d want to keep around are George and Ford, mostly for transition purposes. I could actually see Ford sticking around as the experienced 10 guiding the Smiths etc.

At a fundamental level, I think we need to take a step back and look at what we have. We aren’t a big, bullying pack and many of our better players are wasted in a kick chase system. When I look at Kolbe and Arendse playing for SA and Graham playing for Scotland, I think ‘Murley or Radwan could do something like that for us’.

My 6 Nations squad would be:

1. Genge / Rodd / VRR (or Obano)
2. George* / Dan / McGuigan**
3. Sinckler / Stuart / Collier***
4. Itoje / Isiekwe (or Coles)
5. O. Chessum / Martin
6. T. Curry / Ludlam
7. Earl / Pearson
8. Mercer / T. Willis
9. Mitchell / JvP / Quirke
10. M. Smith / Ford
11. Murley / OHC
12. Kelly / Atkinson
13. Lawrence / Slade
14. Radwan
15. Steward / Arundell

*For transition
**I know he’s not young, but he has less miles on the clock and is better than Walker or Blamire IMO
***Replaces Cole’s role of ‘I’m just here for scrums’

I’ve a funny old feeling that Itoje may well be asked to play 6 this 6 Nations - given Senior Brumpter’s previous use of Lawes and the fact that it allows two big locks eg Martin and Launchbury or even both Chessums plus it would allow a none jumper like Barbeary to play 8 (or even give Billy yet another chance ) - not saying I like any of this but don’t be entirely surprised if something like it actually transpires

[Scrumhead]

I’m a big fan of Launchbury, but a recall would be a poor decision. We need to develop some of our younger locks. If a lock plays 6, I think it’s probably more likely that Ollie Chessum or Alex Coles takes that role.

@puja or @FKAS will know better but I’m not sure Lewis Chessum has played for Tigers yet this season, so I doubt he’s in contention.

[Banquo]

I’m a big fan of Launchbury, but a recall would be a poor decision. We need to develop some of our younger locks. If a lock plays 6, I think it’s probably more likely that Ollie Chessum or Alex Coles takes that role.

@puja or @FKAS will know better but I’m not sure Lewis Chessum has played for Tigers yet this season, so I doubt he’s in contention.

I'd hate to see Coles at 6 for England again, esp as he hasn't featured there for Saints this season. Chesstin would be the better options imo. Though why we can't find a way of getting an actual backrow in the air regularly still perturbs me.

[Scrumhead]

I agree. I’m absolutely not endorsing the idea (hence my comment ‘if a lock plays 6’), just suggesting that Chessum or Coles are more likely candidates than Itoje.

[Puja]

LChessum had a couple of appearances at the start of the season, but risible to suggest he'd be in an EPS for anything other than apprentice.

OChessum would be far and away more likely than Itoje at 6, given Itoje has a reputation as a strong scrummager at lock and OChessum has actually played 6 this season. However, as always, I'm in favour of back rows at back row.

One name which hasn't come up much on this thread is Olly Hartley. I haven't seen much of him this season, but he's impressed when I've seen him previously and he appears to have locked down the Sarries 12 jersey, which puts him ahead of the other young pretenders who appear to be rotating in and out for their clubs (or pushed to 13 in Kelly's case).

Puja

[FKAS]

I’m a big fan of Launchbury, but a recall would be a poor decision. We need to develop some of our younger locks. If a lock plays 6, I think it’s probably more likely that Ollie Chessum or Alex Coles takes that role.

@puja or @FKAS will know better but I’m not sure Lewis Chessum has played for Tigers yet this season, so I doubt he’s in contention.

Lewis Chessum hasn't been playing since the PRC started. I think he might be injured as he's not been playing on loan that I'm aware of. Not one for international consideration at the moment.

[Which Tyler]

One name which hasn't come up much on this thread is Olly Hartley.

For me, and I know this is an unpopular opinion - it's too soon. This is looking like being his breakthrough season, which makes it a full year too early to start capping him.

As ever, every player needs a chance to suffer / shrug off Second Season Syndrome before I would consider them for international rugby - or they simply risk being exposed, much more brutally than they ever would be suffering actual SSS at club level and out of the spotlight.

[Mikey Brown]

One name which hasn't come up much on this thread is Olly Hartley.

For me, and I know this is an unpopular opinion - it's too soon. This is looking like being his breakthrough season, which makes it a full year too early to start capping him.

As ever, every player needs a chance to suffer / shrug off Second Season Syndrome before I would consider them for international rugby - or they simply risk being exposed, much more brutally than they ever would be suffering actual SSS at club level and out of the spotlight.

Yep.

Has he really displaced Tompkins or is he just being used at 13 in Lozowski’s absence?

[Banquo]

I agree. I’m absolutely not endorsing the idea (hence my comment ‘if a lock plays 6’), just suggesting that Chessum or Coles are more likely candidates than Itoje.

...and I was adding Martin and subtracting Coles (not sure he IS more likely than Itoje either tbh, it was Jones who put him there, misguidedly)

[Banquo]

One name which hasn't come up much on this thread is Olly Hartley.

For me, and I know this is an unpopular opinion - it's too soon. This is looking like being his breakthrough season, which makes it a full year too early to start capping him.

As ever, every player needs a chance to suffer / shrug off Second Season Syndrome before I would consider them for international rugby - or they simply risk being exposed, much more brutally than they ever would be suffering actual SSS at club level and out of the spotlight.

Yep.

Has he really displaced Tompkins or is he just being used at 13 in Lozowski’s absence?

I'd think that, as Tompkins is a very good 12. three games ago (ish) Hartley was playing for Ampthill. But be nice to see him nail the slot.

[Insouciant]

Tuilagi is likely out of the start of 6 nations with injury. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67836548.

No Marchant, (potentially) no Tuilagi & no Farrell in the centres for start of the tournament. It will be interesting to see where Snowy Blitzen goes with selection.

[Oakboy]

Tuilagi is likely out of the start of 6 nations with injury. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67836548.

No Marchant, (potentially) no Tuilagi & no Farrell in the centres for start of the tournament. It will be interesting to see where Snowy Blitzen goes with selection.

Two from Lawrence, Freeman, Slade?

Telegraph suggesting Coka back in.