Argentina tour

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I don’t know if Martin being out was already 100% but it certainly felt inevitable.

I had assumed Borthwick is the one pushing CCS at lock for Quins in recent games, so I imagine he’s going to have another look. Will be interesting to see if he can be used as a TH lock or not. He’s a big lad, but worry that might be a bit energy sapping for a guy that thrives on big hits and carries.

Coles did himself no harm on Saturday.

There’s a good few pages of lock chat around page 3 or 4 of this thread btw.

4. Coles
5. CCS
6. Hill
7. Curry Pollock
8. Willis

Sure looks fun, but that’s pretty green.

[Banquo]

God I hope the Lions ignore him and he tours with England. Pollock that is not the curly haired sometimes plays sometimes doesn’t Bath 8

[Banquo]

Ok, could have just gone with he is mainly a first choice starter but you’ve comprehensively made your point , I was wrong in my perception.

I did have my own look, and it’s pretty clear his minutes are managed tightly in general.

My head was in the "what can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence" - but for some reason, I'd put myself in the assertion phase, not the refutation phase - so went looking for evidence...
Yes, my brain is weird - why do you ask?

[Banquo]

Ok, could have just gone with he is mainly a first choice starter but you’ve comprehensively made your point , I was wrong in my perception.

I did have my own look, and it’s pretty clear his minutes are managed tightly in general.

My head was in the "what can be asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence" - but for some reason, I'd put myself in the assertion phase, not the refutation phase - so went looking for evidence...
Yes, my brain is weird - why do you ask?

I like someone bringing receipts (not least because I learn things, like I did when you schooled me on my Butt confusion). It's one of the reasons I enjoy doing the m-b-ms, so that we can have some actual facts about things as well as opinions.

...speaking of which, I still owe you all the last 20 minutes of the Wales game, don't I? I'll see if I can knock that out this week - things've finally stopped happening on top of each other for a short period of time!

God I hope the Lions ignore him and he tours with England. Pollock that is not the curly haired sometimes plays sometimes doesn’t Bath 8

Will Butt.

Puja

Post fact world mate. Opinions are all that count!!

[Oakboy]

God I hope the Lions ignore him and he tours with England. Pollock that is not the curly haired sometimes plays sometimes doesn’t Bath 8

Me too. It would be just our luck for him to go - and get injured.

[Banquo]

I see GRRM's been ruled out for the summer - along with Itoje and likely Chessum with the Lions.
So England, in Argentine, at lock...
Charlie Ewels and Johnny Hill for the magic moments?
or
Chandler Cunningham-Southand Ted Hill for the luxury giraffing?

Coles? By all accounts a stormer on Saturday?

[Oakboy]

Coles? By all accounts a stormer on Saturday?

I wouldn't go that far but he put in a lot of effort, most of it to good effect. He seemed pretty tireless and held his own physically later in the game when it mattered most. I had not realised that he had such good hands.

[Banquo]

Coles? By all accounts a stormer on Saturday?

I wouldn't go that far but he put in a lot of effort, most of it to good effect. He seemed pretty tireless and held his own physically later in the game when it mattered most. I had not realised that he had such good hands.

I think that’s his strong points- very good engine and good skill levels. He’s very good in the lineout. He just needs to twat people from time to time

[Danno]

@puja Sweet, looking forward to it

[Puja]

Coles? By all accounts a stormer on Saturday?

I wouldn't go that far but he put in a lot of effort, most of it to good effect. He seemed pretty tireless and held his own physically later in the game when it mattered most. I had not realised that he had such good hands.

I think that’s his strong points- very good engine and good skill levels. He’s very good in the lineout. He just needs to twat people from time to time

That's it in a nutshell really, isn't it. He's got a load of the things you want out of an international lock, just some doubt about the one thing that you definitely need, especially if we're concerned about our scrum. This goes doubly, because any available space in the team is always likely to be partnering Itoje, who is not a behemoth who can carry a less physical partner.

If the coaches think that Coles is physical enough that he can make it at the very top level, then I'd have him and CCS as our starting partnership, hands down. However, if they think he's not physical enough for what we need, then I don't know that's really something that can be changed (barring a ridiculous physical reconditioning which would probably lose half the good bits to his game in the process), then we're probably better off ignoring him entirely and looking at Clark or Kpoku (assuming his alleged return from France for next season turns out not to be fictional) to see if they can step up instead.

Puja

[Banquo]

I wouldn't go that far but he put in a lot of effort, most of it to good effect. He seemed pretty tireless and held his own physically later in the game when it mattered most. I had not realised that he had such good hands.

I think that’s his strong points- very good engine and good skill levels. He’s very good in the lineout. He just needs to twat people from time to time

That's it in a nutshell really, isn't it. He's got a load of the things you want out of an international lock, just some doubt about the one thing that you definitely need, especially if we're concerned about our scrum. This goes doubly, because any available space in the team is always likely to be partnering Itoje, who is not a behemoth who can carry a less physical partner.

If the coaches think that Coles is physical enough that he can make it at the very top level, then I'd have him and CCS as our starting partnership, hands down. However, if they think he's not physical enough for what we need, then I don't know that's really something that can be changed (barring a ridiculous physical reconditioning which would probably lose half the good bits to his game in the process), then we're probably better off ignoring him entirely and looking at Clark or Kpoku (assuming his alleged return from France for next season turns out not to be fictional) to see if they can step up instead.

Puja

I’m not onboard the CCS train, he may be good for emergency lock cover, but playing tighthead lock in a forwards battle would likely take away his carrying ups, even if he can be made a good scrummager at this level. Course we may have no choice.

I’d rather have an authentic looser lock like Coles paired with a mad out and out 4/tight head lock, if we can find one.

Obvious caveat - I’m a tad stodgy and still think that specialists are needed in rugby, despite the mega multi phase of today’s game.

[Puja]

I think that’s his strong points- very good engine and good skill levels. He’s very good in the lineout. He just needs to twat people from time to time

That's it in a nutshell really, isn't it. He's got a load of the things you want out of an international lock, just some doubt about the one thing that you definitely need, especially if we're concerned about our scrum. This goes doubly, because any available space in the team is always likely to be partnering Itoje, who is not a behemoth who can carry a less physical partner.

If the coaches think that Coles is physical enough that he can make it at the very top level, then I'd have him and CCS as our starting partnership, hands down. However, if they think he's not physical enough for what we need, then I don't know that's really something that can be changed (barring a ridiculous physical reconditioning which would probably lose half the good bits to his game in the process), then we're probably better off ignoring him entirely and looking at Clark or Kpoku (assuming his alleged return from France for next season turns out not to be fictional) to see if they can step up instead.

Puja

I’m not onboard the CCS train, he may be good for emergency lock cover, but playing tighthead lock in a forwards battle would likely take away his carrying ups, even if he can be made a good scrummager at this level.

That's kinda what I'd like to find out though. Argentina are no slouches and I want to see if we can get both CCS the big carrier/tackler and CCS the tighthead lock at the same time. If we can't, then that's useful knowledge to have going forwards and much better than finding that out in a really important game.

Puja

[Banquo]

That's it in a nutshell really, isn't it. He's got a load of the things you want out of an international lock, just some doubt about the one thing that you definitely need, especially if we're concerned about our scrum. This goes doubly, because any available space in the team is always likely to be partnering Itoje, who is not a behemoth who can carry a less physical partner.

If the coaches think that Coles is physical enough that he can make it at the very top level, then I'd have him and CCS as our starting partnership, hands down. However, if they think he's not physical enough for what we need, then I don't know that's really something that can be changed (barring a ridiculous physical reconditioning which would probably lose half the good bits to his game in the process), then we're probably better off ignoring him entirely and looking at Clark or Kpoku (assuming his alleged return from France for next season turns out not to be fictional) to see if they can step up instead.

Puja

I’m not onboard the CCS train, he may be good for emergency lock cover, but playing tighthead lock in a forwards battle would likely take away his carrying ups, even if he can be made a good scrummager at this level.

That's kinda what I'd like to find out though. Argentina are no slouches and I want to see if we can get both CCS the big carrier/tackler and CCS the tighthead lock at the same time. If we can't, then that's useful knowledge to have going forwards and much better than finding that out in a really important game.

Puja

Not quite the same as chucking Pollock in at 12 I grant you . Mind, I think all internationals important and this tour very much so.

[Danno]

What sort of bearing does this tour have on the WC draw?

[Banquo]

What sort of bearing does this tour have on the WC draw?

I meant from a development point of view inc coaching

[Danno]

What sort of bearing does this tour have on the WC draw?

I meant from a development point of view inc coaching

I was asking a separate question inspired by your point

[Puja]

I’m not onboard the CCS train, he may be good for emergency lock cover, but playing tighthead lock in a forwards battle would likely take away his carrying ups, even if he can be made a good scrummager at this level.

That's kinda what I'd like to find out though. Argentina are no slouches and I want to see if we can get both CCS the big carrier/tackler and CCS the tighthead lock at the same time. If we can't, then that's useful knowledge to have going forwards and much better than finding that out in a really important game.

Puja

Not quite the same as chucking Pollock in at 12 I grant you . Mind, I think all internationals important and this tour very much so.

I would agree that all internationals are important, but this is also a great opportunity to learn things. Otherwise, we may as well play Ewels!

What sort of bearing does this tour have on the WC draw?

Just c&ping what I said earlier in the thread: "The RWC draw is seeded based on the rankings at the end of this calendar year, we very much want to be in the top 6 to avoid having a pool of death, and Argentina are one of our main rivals for that ranking, so we ideally do not want to lose both tests to them." We should be aiming to win one of the games, to my mind.

Puja

[Danno]

Cheers Puja (and Banquo for the inadvertent prompt )

[p/d]

We should be aiming to win one of the games, to my mind.

Puja

Not to be critical but I do hope our mindset is slightly more ambitious

[TheNomad]

IFW will apparently be fit for the summer tours, which is excellent news

Him and Roebuck on the wings is a pretty exciting pair, though we'll need to consider who comes off their preferred wing

[Danno]

There's fit, and there's fit and ready. I wouldn't be rushing him back after both a serious injury and 6 months out of the game. Give him the time off, he'll still be here for the AIs

[Mikey Brown]

There's fit, and there's fit and ready. I wouldn't be rushing him back after both a serious injury and 6 months out of the game. Give him the time off, he'll still be here for the AIs

Yep. I'd agree with this.

He was great in his England appearances so far, but he was picked because he'd proven his form and fitness at that time.

[Puja]

We should be aiming to win one of the games, to my mind.

Puja

Not to be critical but I do hope our mindset is slightly more ambitious

Not unfair in terms of what we want the management's aims to be, but Argentina are a good side, especially at home, and we will be missing a fair chunk of our team. A full-strength England side I'd want and expect to win 0-2. Depending on how denuded we are by the Lions and how much we prioritise development over picking known quantities like Dombrandt and Ewels, I am hoping for 0-2, but would take 1-1 as acceptable if we've learned things about players.

Puja

[FKAS]

Well we'll be short Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, T Curry, Pollock, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Freeman, Daly, M Smith.

[Captainhaircut]

Well we'll be short Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, T Curry, Pollock, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Freeman, Daly, M Smith.

Plus Martin, IFW and Furbank. Good luck beating Argentina away missing all that.