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Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:59 am
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:36 am
Insouciant wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:56 pm Tuilagi is likely out of the start of 6 nations with injury. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67836548.

No Marchant, (potentially) no Tuilagi & no Farrell in the centres for start of the tournament. It will be interesting to see where Snowy Blitzen goes with selection.
Two from Lawrence, Freeman, Slade?

Telegraph suggesting Coka back in.
Not a 12 starter from the prem then :lol:

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:15 am
by Scrumhead
Slade is the obvious choice and I still feel that there is untapped potential in his partnership with Lawrence.

I’d 100% have Freeman in the squad, but it feels a little premature to class him as a 13 after a handful of games.

Will Joseph is playing well and is a specialist 13 so I’d imagine he’s got a decent case for being included?

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:27 am
by fivepointer
The case for getting Fraser Dingwall in grows stronger.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:33 am
by FKAS
I think Tommy Freeman's versatility probably counts for him. He's looked very good at 13 but he's also perfectly good at wing and fullback. Could make him an ideal choice in the number 23 shirt.

Will Joseph has had a good season, feels like an England A selection though as dropping a 21 year old straight into a new look backline at 13 with Lawrence at 12 feels a bit risky.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:52 am
by Scrumhead
I’m not suggesting Joseph as a starter but we need centres in the squad and he is probably the form selection.

I’d be perfectly happy with Dingwall though. As I said last week, I think he is a similar standard to Tompkins and Harris who have both done well at test level.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:23 am
by Banquo
Scrumhead wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:15 am Slade is the obvious choice and I still feel that there is untapped potential in his partnership with Lawrence.

I’d 100% have Freeman in the squad, but it feels a little premature to class him as a 13 after a handful of games.

Will Joseph is playing well and is a specialist 13 so I’d imagine he’s got a decent case for being included?
I too was a bit sceptical re Freeman at 13, but what I've seen against decent oppos is pretty encouraging, and he offers an interesting range of attacking skills there. Definitely in the squad, given he is a very good back three option...mysteriously ignored by Sense Bypass.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:29 am
by Oakboy
I think Lawrence and Slade is the best cente paring that has played together. It could be a partnership that complements Mitchell/Smith well. Having said that, I'd find it hard NOT to pick Freeman at 13. I'd have those three in the 23.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:35 pm
by Banquo
Freeman back to wing v Sale. Dingwall rested. Ah well.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:56 pm
by Puja
I think we're likely to see Lawrence/Slade, but that'll be a huge disappointment to me and feel like a retrograde step. I'd rather we pick an actual 12 rather than pretend that picking two 13s who can fill in is somehow the same.

Puja

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2023 2:57 pm
by Banquo
[shadow=]
Puja wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:56 pm I think we're likely to see Lawrence/Slade, but that'll be a huge disappointment to me and feel like a retrograde step. I'd rather we pick an actual 12 rather than pretend that picking two 13s who can fill in is somehow the same.

Puja
Yup. I'd like Ford, Dingwall and Lawrence. Freeman'a'roving from one wing. No idea on the rest.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:13 pm
by Mellsblue
https://x.com/andnickmullins/status/174 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Felix Jones in as defence coach. Sinfield to kicking and skills.
A good, and probably difficult on a personal level, decision to make given the glaring holes in the system.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:18 pm
by fivepointer
Wasnt Jones going to be taking over the attack brief?

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:23 pm
by Mellsblue
That’s what was mooted. I wonder if the rumours were always wrong or the failure to improve d caused a change of thinking. Either way, The Wiggmeister General remains as backs/attack coach…

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:57 pm
by Puja
BBC says Sinfield is going to be leaving entirely after the summer tour: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67879756. Timing in line with Mike Catt leaving Ireland - maybe the return of Catt could be in our future?

The signing of Andrew Strawbridge for the 6N is one that I'm pleased about, with Borthwick referencing him as, "His work around the contact area is incredibly highly regarded, ensuring teams have the quick ball needed to launch a threatening attack." Our breakdown speed has been our bete noir for a long time and hopefully this signing is a move towards changing the way we attack.

Puja

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:08 pm
by Mikey Brown
This all seems very weird.

Sinfield seemed to have an incredible impact at Leicester but was obviously pretty inexperienced in Union. Chucking him in too early for England then demoting (?) him to skills/kicking coach (because who cares about that) really makes me doubt Borthwick’s judgement.

I know he’s meant to be a great character to have around though. Hopefully some useful balance can be found.

I know Felix Jones has switched between roles before, but this still seems off. Wigglesworth being a permanent England coach I just can’t get my head around.

Catt coming in at some point makes sense I guess.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm
by Mellsblue
Mikey Brown wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:08 pm
Catt coming in at some point makes sense I guess.
Ooh. I hadn’t thought of that.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:58 pm
by FKAS
Disappointing to hear Sinfield moving on, the defence looked far better at the world cup after the squad were fit and up to speed with it. Doubly so as it means Wigglesworth continues leading the attack which he's never particularly convinced with. I'd have rather seen Sinfield continue with the defence, Jones take on the attack and Wigglesworth move to skills until after the summer.

Strawbridge coming in, inspires some hope at least as ruck speed has been an issue for us.

Hopefully Catt does return to help out the attack once he leaves Ireland.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 3:24 pm
by Oakboy
Changes so far seem positive. Wigglesworth remaining is odd. He was top of my list as a short-term RWC appointment only.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:04 pm
by Banquo
good to recognise how dire our breakdown is. Short term appointments not so keen on.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:20 pm
by Puja
Banquo wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:04 pm good to recognise how dire our breakdown is. Short term appointments not so keen on.
I'm assuming he was only available for a short-term appointment. While I'm not exactly keen on us having international coaches who are having to learn on the job, I'm hoping that the likes of Wigglesworth and Harrison are going to be getting a fair amount out of working with Strawbridge and it hopefully might make them better going forwards. If we're stuck with them, we may as well bring in the best consultants we can to improve them.

Puja

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:26 pm
by p/d
I’m surprised Angel is happy for her husband to be away from the chateau

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 10:05 pm
by Mikey Brown
https://x.com/FoyChris/status/1742979196010520974?s=20

This also seems weird to me but I don’t understand the ins and the outs of the RPA.

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 1:28 pm
by Mellsblue

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 1:34 pm
by Puja

Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2024 3:25 pm
by twitchy
Big news. I was sure he would play for wales.