Argentina tour

[p/d]

We should be aiming to win one of the games, to my mind.

Puja

Not to be critical but I do hope our mindset is slightly more ambitious

Not unfair in terms of what we want the management's aims to be, but Argentina are a good side, especially at home, and we will be missing a fair chunk of our team. A full-strength England side I'd want and expect to win 0-2. Depending on how denuded we are by the Lions and how much we prioritise development over picking known quantities like Dombrandt and Ewels, I am hoping for 0-2, but would take 1-1 as acceptable if we've learned things about players.

Puja

It was more a play on the word ‘hope’. What I hope and expect probably don't align.

[Puja]

So, our squad for the 6N was (including injury callups):
Ellis Genge
Fin Baxter
Bevan Rodd

Luke Cowan-Dickie
Jamie George
Curtis Langdon
Theo Dan

Will Stuart
Joe Heyes
Asher Opoku-Fordjour

Maro Itoje (captain)
Ollie Chessum
George Martin
Arthur Clark

Chandler Cunningham-South
Ben Curry
Tom Curry
Ben Earl
Henry Pollock
Ted Hill
Tom Willis

Alex Mitchell
Raffi Quirke
Harry Randall
Ben Spencer

Fin Smith
Marcus Smith
George Ford

Fraser Dingwall
Ollie Lawrence
Henry Slade
Oscar Beard

Elliot Daly
Tommy Freeman
Cadan Murley
Tom Roebuck
Ollie Sleightholme
Freddie Steward


Also name-checked as being unavailable were Fasogbon, IFW, Furbank, Ibitoye, Isiekwe, Northmore, and Underhill



Let's assume that we have moved past Spencer and Slade (please), add Martin, Lawrence, Sleightholme, and Furbank to the 13 unavailable from the Lions, assume the same squad composition as before, and make the fairly safe assumption that JVP's return to form and fitness gives him a lock on one of the scrum-half roles. That would give us:

Fin Baxter
Bevan Rodd
XXXX

Jamie George
Curtis Langdon
Theo Dan
XXXX

Joe Heyes
Asher Opoku-Fordjour
XXXX

Arthur Clark
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX

Chandler Cunningham-South
Ben Curry
Ted Hill
Tom Willis
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX

Jack van Poortvliet
Raffi Quirke
Harry Randall
XXXX

George Ford
XXXX
XXXX

Fraser Dingwall
Oscar Beard
XXXX
XXXX

Cadan Murley
Tom Roebuck
Freddie Steward
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX

That means we need 1 LHP, 1 Hooker, 1 THP, 3 locks, 3 back row, 1 scrum-half, 2 fly-halves, 2 centres, 3 back three.

Ready, set - speculate!

Puja

[FKAS]

I'd assume Coles and Fasogbon can be pencilled in to those lists with no real debate.

We won't need more than 3 scrum halfs or hookers either.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Well we'll be short Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, T Curry, Pollock, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Freeman, Daly, M Smith.

Front 5 as expected. Losing three back rowers is expected, as in Mitchell and two tens. I was honestly expecting Ford, rather than Smith. Daly is a very lucky boy, and actually good for England. Freeman was an obvious one.

[Oakboy]

So, we are looking at our 4th choice FH as I suggested could happen. Should Ford be injured or decide not to tour, we'd have an even more interesting selection dilemma. I can hear the groan if I suggest that Slade might still be needed to cover 10! The alternative might be Lozowski perhaps?

[Puja]

So, we are looking at our 4th choice FH as I suggested could happen. Should Ford be injured or decide not to tour, we'd have an even more interesting selection dilemma. I can hear the groan if I suggest that Slade might still be needed to cover 10! The alternative might be Lozowski perhaps?

Actually, I'd agree with you as Slade being our 5th choice (behind the unavailable Furbank) - as long as he's not allowed anywhere near blocking a starting centre role, I'd be okay with him as 10 backup. Beyond him? There's either chucking Donoghue in at the deep end and hoping he swims or settling for the frankly terrifying prospect of CAtkinson or Bailey facing Argentina.

Frankly, if it wasn't for the media circus that'd come with him, I'd say the most sensible option if Ford does goes down or is called up would be to recall Fazlet as a one-off. Not like our fifth choice fly-half is likely to be part of our future plans, so it doesn't matter about future availability and it'd make sense as a stop-gap to make sure the team has at least some direction. No way that could be done without it being a massive *thing* though.

Puja

[p/d]

Is Benson injured? I would have him on one leg before inviting Slade of Farrell back in

[Danno]

Is Benson injured? I would have him on one leg before inviting Slade of Farrell back in

Very much this (biased af though)

[p/d]

Justice4underhill

[Danno]

Has Martin been confirmed out for the summer? Where's Underhill, I'd consider him captain material

Someone needs to sign David Ribbans so we can have e him back

[Epaminondas Pules]

1 LHP
Shame about Brantingham's injury, though he should be back before the end of the season.

1 Hooker
I think he'll take Tuipolotu for experience and maybe a minute off the bench. Otherwise Blamire would seem the obvious choice. Seb Blake an outside bet.

1 THP
Afolabi Fasogbon

3 locks
Alex Coles
Chunya Munga - been around the squad as an invite before.
Junior Kpoku (would be nice - exceptional circumstances?)
Nick Isiekwe. I know, but it probably will be. If it were him or Ewels I'd go him every day. Though he might look at CCS in the spare lock capacity and add another backrow. Kenningham maybe.

3 back row
Guy Pepper
Sam Underhill
Alfie Barbeary (there's only one No8 playing there regularly and Fisilau is injured)

1 scrum-half
Ben Spencer. It will be. Shouldn't, but will be. Though not convinced we'll take four. I would suspect it would be Spencer over Randall. I wouldn't, but Stinky Bumhole might.

2 fly-halves
Charlie Atkinson
(Not sure we'll take three)

2 centres
Seb Atkinson
Henry Slade. Obvious choice. I don't see him not touring. Woodward as an outside bet.
With one fly half then add Joe Woodward

2 back three.
OHC
Adam Radwan

[Epaminondas Pules]

So, we are looking at our 4th choice FH as I suggested could happen. Should Ford be injured or decide not to tour, we'd have an even more interesting selection dilemma. I can hear the groan if I suggest that Slade might still be needed to cover 10! The alternative might be Lozowski perhaps?

Lozowski has done his achilles.

[Captainhaircut]

Daly going is a bit of a blow I think. Had him pencilled in as an experienced head at full back. Leaves the choice between Steward and Carpenter now which isn’t really ideal.

[Fungineer]

That means we need 1 LHP, 1 Hooker, 1 THP, 3 locks, 3 back row, 1 scrum-half, 2 fly-halves, 2 centres, 3 back three.

Ready, set - speculate!

I think these are the main players in contention at these positions. * for injured players and current known status

LHP – Iyogun, Obano
Hooker – Blamire, Oghre
THP – Davison, Fasogbon
Lock – Coles, Isiekwe, Clark, Ewels, [Kpoku if Sale rumours are to be believed]
BR – Underhill, Kenningham, Pepper, Barbeary
SH – Spencer, Porter
FH – Bailey, Burke****
Centre – Lozowski, Atkinson, Northmore, Hartley
B3 – Furbank*, IFW**, OHC, Muir, Sleightholme***, Radwan (7 tries in 7 games for Tigers)

*Dowson indicated recently his status was week-by-week
**Baxter said he’d be available for a summer tour
***Might be back in mid/late May
****England qualified through his English mother although chose to represent Scotland in 6N but was not capped (I believe). If he's a no, then Charlie Atkinson or Furbank, if he goes, can cover 10

[Epaminondas Pules]

Steward isn't exactly lacking experience with 36 caps under his belt.

[p/d]

Steward isn;t exactly lacking experience with 36 caps under his belt.

Well, exactly

[Captainhaircut]

Steward isn't exactly lacking experience with 36 caps under his belt.

Quite but it’s completely foreign to what we were building at the end of the six nations where we had Daly or Smith as a playmaking fullback. I’m not sure we can just drop Steward in and easily run completely different attacking shapes.

With Roebuck right wing and Ford at 10, I’d be tempted to go with Carpenter as a familiarity pick.

[Banquo]

Well we'll be short Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, T Curry, Pollock, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Freeman, Daly, M Smith.

Plus Martin, IFW and Furbank. Good luck beating Argentina away missing all that.

Good chance for the young props, Coles, Willlis, CCS, JVP, Roebuck, Dingwall to all step up/establish/re-establish, on the upside.

[p/d]

Well we'll be short Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, T Curry, Pollock, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Freeman, Daly, M Smith.

Plus Martin, IFW and Furbank. Good luck beating Argentina away missing all that.

Good chance for the young props, Coles, Willlis, CCS, JVP, Roebuck, Dingwall to all step up/establish/re-establish, on the upside.

Yep. Daly and Earl on Lions duty is an absolute godsend

[Captainhaircut]

Plus Martin, IFW and Furbank. Good luck beating Argentina away missing all that.

Good chance for the young props, Coles, Willlis, CCS, JVP, Roebuck, Dingwall to all step up/establish/re-establish, on the upside.

Yep. Daly and Earl on Lions duty is an absolute godsend

Earl I can agree with but not sure who Daly was blocking unless you’re keen to see Carpenter at full back?

[FKAS]

Steward isn't exactly lacking experience with 36 caps under his belt.

Quite but it’s completely foreign to what we were building at the end of the six nations where we had Daly or Smith as a playmaking fullback. I’m not sure we can just drop Steward in and easily run completely different attacking shapes.

With Roebuck right wing and Ford at 10, I’d be tempted to go with Carpenter as a familiarity pick.

Carpenter adding less playmaking ability than Steward though. Ford knows Steward well from his Tigers days. Be an interesting match up for tomorrow night Steward Vs Carpenter. England were using Daly's long range kicking to clear the lines during the 6N, that is something Steward could replicate.

[p/d]

Good chance for the young props, Coles, Willlis, CCS, JVP, Roebuck, Dingwall to all step up/establish/re-establish, on the upside.

Yep. Daly and Earl on Lions duty is an absolute godsend

Earl I can agree with but not sure who Daly was blocking unless you’re keen to see Carpenter at full back?

It’s not about blocking. Didn’t want or expect to see Daly return to the fold to start with, so I don’t view his absence on tour an issue.
Steward - and yes I am well aware of the ‘playmaking fb’ tag - and Carpenter - who I really rate - plus De Glanville are a preference.

[Danno]

Daly would 100% be touring. Decent 6n appearances aside and I hope he goes well on the jamboree, I'm also glad he won't be about for it. We know everything to know about his game already.

[Banquo]

Well we'll be short Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, T Curry, Pollock, Earl, Mitchell, F Smith, Freeman, Daly, M Smith.

Front 5 as expected. Losing three back rowers is expected, as in Mitchell and two tens. I was honestly expecting Ford, rather than Smith. Daly is a very lucky boy, and actually good for England. Freeman was an obvious one.

whilst Daly is an odd call, he was very good in the 6N

[Banquo]

Is Benson injured? I would have him on one leg before inviting Slade of Farrell back in

he's not even started a prem match, much as I like the cut of his jib...