RugbyRebels

of course, fair point, but there is a lot of ground to make up and there would need to be a much harsher approach (very unpopular) with the way they deal with benefits for example.

BBD wrote:of course, fair point, but there is a lot of ground to make up and there would need to be a much harsher approach (very unpopular) with the way they deal with benefits for example.

Changing the whole way the country is run from a slightly independent Region to a fully independent Nation is not going to be easy indeed.

Adder wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Not a surprise. A bit academic in a way as I can't see any referendum taking place until after brexit occurs.

I wasn't expecting it today but she probably wants to show she is on top of things.

Whether it happens before remains to be seen. Promising EU membership with the Brexit referendum coming u was an issue during the previous ref. The "No camp" will try to deny/minimise this guarantee now.

UK government better soon come up with a plan that suits every Nation in the UK on the short and long term. Labour (and Lib dems) disappearance is certainly not doing the union any good.

I suspect the UK government will point to the need to get Brexit right for everyone and not be distracted by another Scottish independence referendum. Its also a bot difficult for Sturgeon as how can she use the Brexit outcome as a means to demand independence until she knows what that will look like - the final outcome could be quite acceptable to many Scots and she has then shot her bolt.

Sandydragon wrote:

Adder wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Not a surprise. A bit academic in a way as I can't see any referendum taking place until after brexit occurs.

I wasn't expecting it today but she probably wants to show she is on top of things.

Whether it happens before remains to be seen. Promising EU membership with the Brexit referendum coming u was an issue during the previous ref. The "No camp" will try to deny/minimise this guarantee now.

UK government better soon come up with a plan that suits every Nation in the UK on the short and long term. Labour (and Lib dems) disappearance is certainly not doing the union any good.

I suspect the UK government will point to the need to get Brexit right for everyone and not be distracted by another Scottish independence referendum. Its also a bot difficult for Sturgeon as how can she use the Brexit outcome as a means to demand independence until she knows what that will look like - the final outcome could be quite acceptable to many Scots and she has then shot her bolt.

Add to that storm, the question of How Scotland "gets back into"/ "remains in" the EU...

Adder wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Adder wrote: I wasn't expecting it today but she probably wants to show she is on top of things.

Whether it happens before remains to be seen. Promising EU membership with the Brexit referendum coming u was an issue during the previous ref. The "No camp" will try to deny/minimise this guarantee now.

UK government better soon come up with a plan that suits every Nation in the UK on the short and long term. Labour (and Lib dems) disappearance is certainly not doing the union any good.

I suspect the UK government will point to the need to get Brexit right for everyone and not be distracted by another Scottish independence referendum. Its also a bot difficult for Sturgeon as how can she use the Brexit outcome as a means to demand independence until she knows what that will look like - the final outcome could be quite acceptable to many Scots and she has then shot her bolt.

Add to that storm, the question of How Scotland "gets back into"/ "remains in" the EU...

Indeed. Sturgeon should perhaps be careful for what she wishes, if the UK parliament gives its go ahead for a second referendum, independence might not look that appealing to the electorate at the moment. Getting fewer votes than last time would be a disaster.

Is everyone assuming even the SNP think they mayn't win any referendum right now and as such as seeking Westminster denying them the chance to hold a vote?

Digby wrote:Is everyone assuming even the SNP think they mayn't win any referendum right now and as such as seeking Westminster denying them the chance to hold a vote?

I actually don't think the SNP + other (green+ independent) need Mays denial. The Tories have done a mess of the aftermath of initial Scottish referendum.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

According to Theresa May..

The SNP was "playing politics with the future of our country", said Mrs May.

Well I guess the tories would know.

I wondered when I heard her day that who there is in politics who isn't playing politics, it seems rather the point does it not?

The quantity and quality of hypocrisy that will​ be on display over the next 18 months will be impressive, albeit not in a good way.

Digby wrote:Is everyone assuming even the SNP think they mayn't win any referendum right now and as such as seeking Westminster denying them the chance to hold a vote?

In my opinion, Sturgeon would fall off her chair if May agreed to hold a referendum.

Donny osmond wrote:The quantity and quality of hypocrisy that will​ be on display over the next 18 months will be impressive, albeit not in a good way.

It's been said before and it'll be said again of politics that 'If you can’t take their money, drink their whisky, screw their women, and vote against them anyway you don’t belong'

Hurry up and fuck the country up so I can have a laugh FFS.

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Is everyone assuming even the SNP think they mayn't win any referendum right now and as such as seeking Westminster denying them the chance to hold a vote?

In my opinion, Sturgeon would fall off her chair if May agreed to hold a referendum.

That might be what NS is counting on, but TM really holds all the cards right now, at least as far as controlling the set up to the next indyref.

If she's wise, she'll make it a key point if agreeing to one that things like iScotland entry requirements to the EU, issue of iScot debt, pension payments are all pre-negotiated. Easy to justify, by saying that the scottish people should have all facts at our disposal. And it would take away all opportunity for any lies, from either side, to gather pace.

Donny osmond wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Is everyone assuming even the SNP think they mayn't win any referendum right now and as such as seeking Westminster denying them the chance to hold a vote?

In my opinion, Sturgeon would fall off her chair if May agreed to hold a referendum.

That might be what NS is counting on, but TM really holds all the cards right now, at least as far as controlling the set up to the next indyref.

If she's wise, she'll make it a key point if agreeing to one that things like iScotland entry requirements to the EU, issue of iScot debt, pension payments are all pre-negotiated. Easy to justify, by saying that the scottish people should have all facts at our disposal. And it would take away all opportunity for any lies, from either side, to gather pace.

You mean, like they did for Brexit?

"if agreeing to one that things like iScotland entry requirements to the EU"
What does this mean? Why should she have any say in that?

I agree that the new yes Campaign should come up with a plan taking into account the current situation though.

Len wrote:Hurry up and fuck the country up so I can have a laugh FFS.

Pay attention, we're doing bang up job right now.

Donny osmond wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Digby wrote:Is everyone assuming even the SNP think they mayn't win any referendum right now and as such as seeking Westminster denying them the chance to hold a vote?

In my opinion, Sturgeon would fall off her chair if May agreed to hold a referendum.

That might be what NS is counting on, but TM really holds all the cards right now, at least as far as controlling the set up to the next indyref.

If she's wise, she'll make it a key point if agreeing to one that things like iScotland entry requirements to the EU, issue of iScot debt, pension payments are all pre-negotiated. Easy to justify, by saying that the scottish people should have all facts at our disposal. And it would take away all opportunity for any lies, from either side, to gather pace.

May is a rabbit in the headlights right now but the only Trump card she can play is time. Keep denying the SNP and their record in government will start to catch up with them eventually. There are a lot of people in Scotland who seem to think that Independence is their silver bullet.

Adder wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: In my opinion, Sturgeon would fall off her chair if May agreed to hold a referendum.

That might be what NS is counting on, but TM really holds all the cards right now, at least as far as controlling the set up to the next indyref.

If she's wise, she'll make it a key point if agreeing to one that things like iScotland entry requirements to the EU, issue of iScot debt, pension payments are all pre-negotiated. Easy to justify, by saying that the scottish people should have all facts at our disposal. And it would take away all opportunity for any lies, from either side, to gather pace.

You mean, like they did for Brexit?

"if agreeing to one that things like iScotland entry requirements to the EU"
What does this mean? Why should she have any say in that?

I agree that the new yes Campaign should come up with a plan taking into account the current situation though.

Sorry, unclear, I meant that she should e.g. approach the eu to ask what iScotlands entry requirements are. Not that UK had a say in that, the pre negotiation bit was for pensions, debt share, etc.

Article 50 should be triggered asap, and if Scotland are stupid enough to want independence and stay in the EU, Hadrians wall needs to be rebuilt, only bigger and better this time around.

Adder wrote:

BBD wrote:of course, fair point, but there is a lot of ground to make up and there would need to be a much harsher approach (very unpopular) with the way they deal with benefits for example.

Changing the whole way the country is run from a slightly independent Region to a fully independent Nation is not going to be easy indeed.

really? I'd have thought it is relatively straightforward for Scoland. It's got it's own system of law and education. It's got the civil service infrastructure from being part of the Uk and having its own parliament. It's got great traditions of administration as well, which is almost as important. It knows what an administration is supposed to look like and there will be plenty of people who'll be happy to go there from Westminster, for a fee. I think they'll have little difficulty from that perspective. Raising funds for a NHS and social care might be a completely different issue.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Adder wrote:

BBD wrote:of course, fair point, but there is a lot of ground to make up and there would need to be a much harsher approach (very unpopular) with the way they deal with benefits for example.

Changing the whole way the country is run from a slightly independent Region to a fully independent Nation is not going to be easy indeed.

really? I'd have thought it is relatively straightforward for Scoland. It's got it's own system of law and education. It's got the civil service infrastructure from being part of the Uk and having its own parliament. It's got great traditions of administration as well, which is almost as important. It knows what an administration is supposed to look like and there will be plenty of people who'll be happy to go there from Westminster, for a fee. I think they'll have little difficulty from that perspective. Raising funds for a NHS and social care might be a completely different issue.

As a case in point, after years of asking for more powers, specifically over tax, the UK govt agreed to move something like 15% of the payment and processing of welfare payments to Holyrood. Holyrood took one look at the complexity of it and said " no, we cant handle that, can you keep a hold of those powers until we're ready... maybe in 2020 we can look at taking them on". It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.

Donny osmond wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Adder wrote: Changing the whole way the country is run from a slightly independent Region to a fully independent Nation is not going to be easy indeed.

really? I'd have thought it is relatively straightforward for Scoland. It's got it's own system of law and education. It's got the civil service infrastructure from being part of the Uk and having its own parliament. It's got great traditions of administration as well, which is almost as important. It knows what an administration is supposed to look like and there will be plenty of people who'll be happy to go there from Westminster, for a fee. I think they'll have little difficulty from that perspective. Raising funds for a NHS and social care might be a completely different issue.

As a case in point, after years of asking for more powers, specifically over tax, the UK govt agreed to move something like 15% of the payment and processing of welfare payments to Holyrood. Holyrood took one look at the complexity of it and said " no, we cant handle that, can you keep a hold of those powers until we're ready... maybe in 2020 we can look at taking them on". It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.

Yes, this is what happened...

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Adder wrote:

BBD wrote:of course, fair point, but there is a lot of ground to make up and there would need to be a much harsher approach (very unpopular) with the way they deal with benefits for example.

Changing the whole way the country is run from a slightly independent Region to a fully independent Nation is not going to be easy indeed.

really? I'd have thought it is relatively straightforward for Scoland. It's got it's own system of law and education. It's got the civil service infrastructure from being part of the Uk and having its own parliament. It's got great traditions of administration as well, which is almost as important. It knows what an administration is supposed to look like and there will be plenty of people who'll be happy to go there from Westminster, for a fee. I think they'll have little difficulty from that perspective. Raising funds for a NHS and social care might be a completely different issue.

Yeah, youd think so but its not the case, the capability to deliver projects in the Scottish civil service is a known issue. They are recruiting to solve the issue but it will take time as the "expertise" needs to be migrated in, then change the culture and then start to gain traction in terms of actual change. It also has the halfway house to deal with right now of being a slightly independent region, negotiating and co-ordinating with Westminster and the civil service, whilst juggling the ever present issue of how much of a voice Scotland has in the process now and potentially in the future. throw the MSPs into the mix with their need to proclaim progress to the electorate and it will take a while to steady and then make progress. Funding it will be a nightmare given the current set up and strategy if they do go independent and are not willing to cut their cloth accordingly

Meanwhile, in Westminster, the UK Government continue to give lessons on what it means to be REALLY incompetent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 30626.html

Brexit Secretary David Davis has stunned MPs by admitting the Government has done no economic assessment of crashing out of the EU with ‘no deal’.

Giving evidence to MPs, Mr Davis insisted it was not possible to calculate the impact of the Brexit talks failing – adding: “I may be able to do so in about a year’s time.”
...
Mr Davis hinted no assessment of the Brexit options will be carried out, saying: “You don’t need a piece of paper with numbers on it to have an economic assessment.”

With idiots like this in charge, we're fucked.

Stones of granite wrote:Meanwhile, in Westminster, the UK Government continue to give lessons on what it means to be REALLY incompetent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 30626.html

Brexit Secretary David Davis has stunned MPs by admitting the Government has done no economic assessment of crashing out of the EU with ‘no deal’.

Giving evidence to MPs, Mr Davis insisted it was not possible to calculate the impact of the Brexit talks failing – adding: “I may be able to do so in about a year’s time.”
...
Mr Davis hinted no assessment of the Brexit options will be carried out, saying: “You don’t need a piece of paper with numbers on it to have an economic assessment.”

With idiots like this in charge, we're fucked.

Stunning.

Just moved my savings over to NZ. Good luck bois. The EU is going to chew you up and spit you out at the negotiating table.