RugbyRebels

Here's some interesting stattage.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-bl ... n-his-back

Highlights:
Since 2004, there have been fewer All Black tight heads than any other position.

In 171 tests, the All Blacks have used 164 different starting XVs. Of the 5 repeats, 2 have been in RWC Semis and finals.

Just to keep the Super Rugby embers smouldering while the Lions piss all over our domestic season…

Most Super Rugby Championships:
Crusaders: 7 (most recently 2008)
Blues: 3 (2003)
Bulls: 3 (2010)
Brumbies: 2 (2004)
Chiefs: 2 (2013)
Reds: 1 (2011)
Waratahs: 1 (2014)
Highlanders: 1 (2015)
Hurricanes: 1 (2016)
Northern Traansvaal/Northern Bulls,* Natal Sharks/Sharks, Transvaal/Gauteng Lions/Golden Lions/Cats/Lions, Western Province/Stormers, Free State/Cheetahs, Force, Rebels, Kings, Jaguares, Sunwolves: 0

NZ: 14 wins by 5 franchises out of 5
Aust: 4 by 3 from 5
SA: 1 by 1 from, um, 6 to 14 (or even 15 if the Spears are counted) depending on how you count
Jap/Arg: 0 by 0 from 1 each

*Now included in the Bulls franchise, which has 3 wins

Lizard wrote:I met a few old Rhodesian cricketers when I was over there but no-one associated with rugby as far as I knew.

I've also sent the ZRU a DM on Twitter, and LinkedIn invite to Jonty Winch. I'm keen to get a definitive answer on this.

I've managed to find former Zimbabwe RU president John Falkenberg on Facebook, and he assures me Rhodesia's results against international opposition are indeed regarded as 'test matches' by the ZRU and part of the nation's rugby history. This includes the 1949 victory over the All Blacks.

Good work. Have you got a link or a screen shot or something?

Facebook - Zimbabwe Rugby Forum. It should come up. John Falkenberg actually operates it himself and it's pretty lively too.

Defending champions Wellington Hurricanes set a new Super Rugby try scoring record in overcoming Western Force 34-12 in Perth. The Hurricanes posted six tries to two to break the record for most tries in a Super Rugby season, with 83 overtaking South Africa's Golden Lions' 81 from last season. Wellington moved 10 points behind the Canterbury Crusaders in the New Zealand conference with two games left in the regular season, one of them against the Crusaders at home. The Hurricanes' victory also further extended New Zealand's winning record over Australian opposition this season to 23-0.

rowan wrote:Facebook - Zimbabwe Rugby Forum. It should come up. John Falkenberg actually operates it himself and it's pretty lively too.

I've joined that group, and seen an article about 1949 that John has copypasted from elsewhere but I don't see anything about retrospective caps. Can you link it?

Link what? His comment that the games have been retroactively awarded test status? Just ask him yourself. He seems to be on there regularly enough, sharing videos and chatting with everyone. I did a google search on the guy and he was definitely president of the ZRU until last year. So I presume he knows what he's talking about, and he was adamant those games are now regarded as test matches in Zimbabwe. But that's all I've got to go on.

Interestingly Rugby Data lists these games: http://www.rugbydata.com/newzealand/zimbabwe/

rowan wrote:Link what? His comment that the games have been retroactively awarded test status? Just ask him yourself. He seems to be on there regularly enough, sharing videos and chatting with everyone. I did a google search on the guy and he was definitely president of the ZRU until last year. So I presume he knows what he's talking about, and he was adamant those games are now regarded as test matches in Zimbabwe. But that's all I've got to go on.

I meant a link to his replies, or did you DM him?

Rugbydata lists all manner of nonsense, like the Barbarians v All Blacks, which no one has ever regarded as a test.

Yes, most of our discussion was a private chat. Amazing thing, Facebook. I had a long chat with the coach and manager of the defending club champions here the other day and he gave me the full story about Turkey's absence from ENC (see Global Results thread). I only have Mr Falkenberg's word on this, and he has no reason to lie, but I also recall reading about it some time ago after the decision to recognize those games as full internationals in Zimbabwe was made.

The All Blacks have lost only 7 tests ever to opposition that failed to score a try.

The most recent was in 2011 (18-5) when an understrength side was sent to South Africa before the RWC. Richard Kahui scored an unconverted try, Morne Steyn kicked 5 penalties and a drop goal.

The only other instance in the professional era was in 2003 (15-13) when Sir Clive’s Johnny Wilkinson hit 4 penalties and a DG to outdo a Howlett try, converted by Spencer who also got 2 penalties.

The most famous example was the final of RWC1995 (15-12) when Joel Stransky and Andrew Mehrtens both scored 3 penalties but Stransky made his 2nd DG after Mehrtens’ attempted second missed.

In 1993 (15-9), 3 Jeff Wilson penalties at Twickenham were not enough to overcome Jon Callard’s* 4 penalties let alone Rob Andrew’s DG.

In 1979 (12-6), Australia won the Bledisloe Cup in a one-off test in which Bev Wilson’s* penalty and Murray Taylor’s DG were not enough to overcome 3 penalties by Paul McLean and a Monrose DG.

The Springboks failed to cross the whitewash in two of the tests against the disastrous 1949 All Blacks tourists, weakened by the omission of non-white players. In the first test (15-11), Henderson’s converted 3-point try, and Scott’s penalty and DG were outdone by 5 penalties, all kicked by prop Okey Geffin.** In the 3rd test (9-3), Geffin repeated the feat with 3 penalties while NZ’s sole score was a Maurice Goddard try.


*No, I haven’t heard of him either.
**Fun fact – Okey Geffin, a Jewish son of a Russian immigrant to SA, honed his goal-kicking prowess while a POW in Germany and Italy during WWII.

How about tests NZ has won wihout scoring a try against opponents who did cross the line? I can recall Kieran Crowley kicking six penalties in an 18-13 win over England in 1985, though the tourists scored two tries. I went to the second test in Wellington where the All Blacks romped to a then record 42-15 win. Of course, all the talk then was about how the All Blacks had beaten Lions 18-17 in 1959 with Don Clarke's 6 penalties overcoming 4 tries by the visitors.

I think the only other instance of a tryless NZ beating a try-scoring side was the home fixture v SA in the inaugural Tri-Nations - 5 Mehrtens penalties beating a Joubert try and 2 Stransky penalties.

Really? I thought there would have been more in the early days, but since tries were only worth 3 points and conversions were often missed, it would be a hell of a job trying to find them!

I've checked (it's actually not hard). I'm right.

A team of All Blacks captains:

IJ Clarke, SBT Fitzpatrick, WJ Whineray, GW Whetton, RD Thorne, RH McCaw, GNK Mourie, KJ Read, DE Kirk, JL Griffths, JF Umaga, FR Allen, JB Smith, SS Wilson, JM Muliaina.

rowan wrote:A team of All Blacks captains:

IJ Clarke, SBT Fitzpatrick, WJ Whineray, GW Whetton, RD Thorne, RH McCaw, GNK Mourie, KJ Read, DE Kirk, JL Griffths, JF Umaga, FR Allen, JB Smith, SS Wilson, JM Muliaina.

Strangely there does not appear to have been a post-WWII first-five captain, even though that is a key decision-making position. In fact, it seems it was never a popular choice, with only a few players ever captaining the All Blacks from number 10, and none of them for more than a few tests. Prop has also fallen out of favor since Wilson Whineray in the late 50s and early 60s, which seems a little odd given his 22 wins from 30 tests as captain (they didn't come so easy back then, esp. v SA, and no tests v minnows). In fact, I've included him at tighthead, where he only played a few games, because I don't think a tighthead specialist has ever led NZ in a test match. The only other position which appears NEVER to have produced a test captain is left wing, so I've selected Tana Umaga there, although I believe he actually captained the side from center. Increasingly over the past few decades the All Blacks captains have come from the back row trio or hooker positions.

Fred Allen captained from 1st 5/8 immediately after WWII, I think.

That's the way I remembered it. But when I looked it up it said 2/5. Also, he only captained them in a few tests. I thought it was more but perhaps was confused with his coaching career.

Anyways, we could always put him at 10, bring in Ron Elvidge at 12 (he also played center), & drop Griffiths altogether. Wouldn't make much difference either way. None of them captained the All Blacks more than a few times.

I would have sworn that Dan Carter captained a test against a minnow side once. Seems he didn't. Maybe he just took over after the real captain went off or something?

I was having similar thoughts about Fox & Mehrtens. Did they captain the side in a non-international perhaps?

Andy Haden and Murray Mexted never captaining the side seems a bit odd too, given their long & distinguished All Blacks careers and obvious intelligence. I seem to recall both had a stint in the midweek games during the Cavaliers tour, but (if so) that appears to have been about it. I guess some players, for whatever reason, just weren't considered right for the job.