We need to talk about Eddie...

[fivepointer]

Well the panel (would be nice to know exactly who they were) dont seem to have marked Jones card at all as the head coach appears to have escaped any criticism for our poor performances.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... ns-debrief

[Digby]

Indeed. That seems eminently sensible. Which is pretty shocking for the RFU...maybe they have turned a corner?

Maybe they have no money

[p/d]

And there was me hoping the similarities, brought to our attention on a much earlier thread, between Jones and Mourinho might have proven correct

[morepork]

Lack of on field leadership and poor Tic-Tacs.

Hope they sent Italy some flowers and a thank you card.

[francoisfou]

Lack of on field leadership and poor Tic-Tacs.

Hope they sent Italy some flowers and a thank you card.

Yep, wrong captain.

[jngf]

Well the panel (would be nice to know exactly who they were) dont seem to have marked Jones card at all as the head coach appears to have escaped any criticism for our poor performances.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... ns-debrief

Complete capitulation by weak RFU - confirms it’s Jones who wears the trousers - dismal

[Scrumhead]

If England were to spectacularly rally from this point onwards and win the 2023 RWC, I still don’t think you or Oakboy would have anything positive to say.

I love how you know exactly what was said behind closed doors. For all we know, he got an absolute bollocking and kept the job by the skin of his teeth.

My own take is that he has kept the job based upon a combination of his previous success, the absence of an obvious alternative* and money.

*The rumour is that the RFU were sounding out Robertson, Gatland etc. Perhaps they said no?

[Oakboy]

If England were to spectacularly rally from this point onwards and win the 2023 RWC, I still don’t think you or Oakboy would have anything positive to say.

I love how you know exactly what was said behind closed doors. For all we know, he got an absolute bollocking and kept the job by the skin of his teeth.

My own take is that he has kept the job based upon a combination of his previous success, the absence of an obvious alternative* and money.

*The rumour is that the RFU were sounding out Robertson, Gatland etc. Perhaps they said no?

No, I'd eat humble pie just as I said I would if we won it last time. I was staggered by our performance in beating NZ in the SF and was looking forward to being proved so wrong in the final. Then . . .

I think the RFU are repeating their mistake(s) but that's it now. We are stuck with Jones. All I will say before dropping the subject is that we will not do better next time unless Jones changes something. I think the team has reached its collective ceiling. It should be interesting.

[Digby]

Jones just did change something. Do you really think he needs to change again before seeing if it works for us? We had that sought of thinking under Johnson

[jngf]

If England were to spectacularly rally from this point onwards and win the 2023 RWC, I still don’t think you or Oakboy would have anything positive to say.

I love how you know exactly what was said behind closed doors. For all we know, he got an absolute bollocking and kept the job by the skin of his teeth.

My own take is that he has kept the job based upon a combination of his previous success, the absence of an obvious alternative* and money.

*The rumour is that the RFU were sounding out Robertson, Gatland etc. Perhaps they said no?

and I love how you think your own opinion is so superior - have you thought of a career in politics?

[Scrumhead]

Well my opinion is based upon an assessment of a few facts we do actually know (i.e. he does have a good win record, there is no obvious alternative and the RFU have no money to pay him off) ... yours is just pure speculation.

So yes, I do think mine is superior.

Anyway - it all would have been irrelevant if he gone with your chosen back row of Ludlam, Simmonds and Itoje at 6, 7 and 8. I’m sure we would have dominated the world but hey ho ...

[Oakboy]

Jones just did change something. Do you really think he needs to change again before seeing if it works for us? We had that sought of thinking under Johnson

Are you talking about reduced kicking or what? I'm talking about a reassessment of the core group of players, their individual improvement/decline/ceiling; their collective influence and improvement/decline/ceiling etc. At best, the current core group can produce but sustaining consistent quality of performance seems beyond them based on the 6N no matter how many questionable excuses the RFU committee trotted out.

Jones is an experienced coach whose win ratio stands up to scrutiny, we are told. Now, the past has to become irrelevant. Only the future matters. No excuses from this point on.

[Digby]

Jones just did change something. Do you really think he needs to change again before seeing if it works for us? We had that sought of thinking under Johnson

Are you talking about reduced kicking or what? I'm talking about a reassessment of the core group of players, their individual improvement/decline/ceiling; their collective influence and improvement/decline/ceiling etc. At best, the current core group can produce but sustaining consistent quality of performance seems beyond them based on the 6N no matter how many questionable excuses the RFU committee trotted out.

Jones is an experienced coach whose win ratio stands up to scrutiny, we are told. Now, the past has to become irrelevant. Only the future matters. No excuses from this point on.

The pandemic, the grind of rugby for some players vs the paucity for some others are questionable excuses? Tough crowd

[twitchy]

[Oakboy]

Jones just did change something. Do you really think he needs to change again before seeing if it works for us? We had that sought of thinking under Johnson

Are you talking about reduced kicking or what? I'm talking about a reassessment of the core group of players, their individual improvement/decline/ceiling; their collective influence and improvement/decline/ceiling etc. At best, the current core group can produce but sustaining consistent quality of performance seems beyond them based on the 6N no matter how many questionable excuses the RFU committee trotted out.

Jones is an experienced coach whose win ratio stands up to scrutiny, we are told. Now, the past has to become irrelevant. Only the future matters. No excuses from this point on.

The pandemic, the grind of rugby for some players vs the paucity for some others are questionable excuses? Tough crowd

Compared with the three countries we lost to?

[FKAS]

At a time when the RFU has been losing money hand over fist they aren't going to take the expensive option of replacing Eddie. As long as he came in with some good excuses they could pedal to the media it was going to be carry on as normal.

[Digby]

Are you talking about reduced kicking or what? I'm talking about a reassessment of the core group of players, their individual improvement/decline/ceiling; their collective influence and improvement/decline/ceiling etc. At best, the current core group can produce but sustaining consistent quality of performance seems beyond them based on the 6N no matter how many questionable excuses the RFU committee trotted out.

Jones is an experienced coach whose win ratio stands up to scrutiny, we are told. Now, the past has to become irrelevant. Only the future matters. No excuses from this point on.

The pandemic, the grind of rugby for some players vs the paucity for some others are questionable excuses? Tough crowd

Compared with the three countries we lost to?

Yes, points specifically attended to the review

[fivepointer]

There were difficulties for all teams during the 6N's. To claim that we were uniquely handicapped is, i think, just a little rich.
I'd say being without Ryles was factor, though with modern coms its perfectly possible to keep in contact. Not the same as being on the spot and this, along with Proudfoot being sidelined for a spell, was far from ideal.
Missing key players. Well, every team has to deal with that.
Undercooked players. Don't pick 'em all at once.
Overcooked players. When there was no rugby for about 5 months last year. Nah, i dont think so.
Covid. Everyone had to deal with that.
28 man squad. Agreed by Jones and the clubs. He picked the squad, he chose who to play and he chose to limit the involvement of a number of players and who to bring in when injury arose.
The review is a bit of a whitewash, which is pretty much what i expected, though i did think we would get a little tougher reaction than the whole 6N's being "sub optimal".

[Digby]

They note some players basically didn't have an off season, they note the situation with Sarries relegating, and only France other than us has relegation and doesn't have a surfeit of French national team players who relegated, and they note once in camp we were seemingly stricter on Covid regs that others, and that had a detrimental impact vis vis our performance relative to those other nations.

Yes things could have been done differently, that doesn't alter how things were when it'd came to a review.

Actually I remain enthused we tried to play more, and we'll have to see what happens around the intent and fitness levels to continue/develop that. The biggest concerns in this area I have are we give up and go back to kicking on the back of the results, or when considering that with a day less recovery Ireland looked to have us physically in the last 10 by quite some margin, so we can't just leave everything as is and replicate the off the ball work and consistently deliver on the ball in hand style we saw in the 6N, something needs to change, whether improved fitness levels or better decision making in game

[Oakboy]

There were difficulties for all teams during the 6N's. To claim that we were uniquely handicapped is, i think, just a little rich.
I'd say being without Ryles was factor, though with modern coms its perfectly possible to keep in contact. Not the same as being on the spot and this, along with Proudfoot being sidelined for a spell, was far from ideal.
Missing key players. Well, every team has to deal with that.
Undercooked players. Don't pick 'em all at once.
Overcooked players. When there was no rugby for about 5 months last year. Nah, i dont think so.
Covid. Everyone had to deal with that.
28 man squad. Agreed by Jones and the clubs. He picked the squad, he chose who to play and he chose to limit the involvement of a number of players and who to bring in when injury arose.
The review is a bit of a whitewash, which is pretty much what i expected, though i did think we would get a little tougher reaction than the whole 6N's being "sub optimal".

A well-reasoned summary - as usual.

[Mikey Brown]

There were difficulties for all teams during the 6N's. To claim that we were uniquely handicapped is, i think, just a little rich.
I'd say being without Ryles was factor, though with modern coms its perfectly possible to keep in contact. Not the same as being on the spot and this, along with Proudfoot being sidelined for a spell, was far from ideal.
Missing key players. Well, every team has to deal with that.
Undercooked players. Don't pick 'em all at once.
Overcooked players. When there was no rugby for about 5 months last year. Nah, i dont think so.
Covid. Everyone had to deal with that.
28 man squad. Agreed by Jones and the clubs. He picked the squad, he chose who to play and he chose to limit the involvement of a number of players and who to bring in when injury arose.
The review is a bit of a whitewash, which is pretty much what i expected, though i did think we would get a little tougher reaction than the whole 6N's being "sub optimal".

The situation with the Sarries players was obviously difficult, but we knew this would be the case from a long, long way out. Maybe the teams falls apart completely without Faz, Billy, George etc. but I'd say that's why people have been keen for Jones to look at other options in case of injury. Acting shocked when they looked undercooked seemed a bit strange to me.

Faz and Billy were playing as well as anyone (and as well as they have played for quite a while) by the end of the tournament, so maybe that was worth the price for Jones, knowing he had this excuse at the ready.

I agree with the general conclusion that Jones should stay on - but it's hard to know if the summary we were given really matches the discussions that were had, or how seriously anybody was considering ditching Jones. I hope the effort from Jones to expand on the way we play was considered a positive rather than being the reason we came 5th.

[FKAS]

Undercooked players. Don't pick 'em all at once.

They were all undercooked that was the problem. Most the players who played in the ANC then had a mandatory rest period and then the European games were cancelled. Look at Ben Youngs for instance, Vs Bath at the weekend that was his second Prem game this season and his fourth game for Tigers this season. The RFU made a mess with the English players and them barely playing pre 6N where as most of the other nations had seen their players play half a dozen games (if I remember rightly). Wasn't just the Sarries guys who hadn't played enough.

That could have easily been identified as a problem and some regular Prem players who were in form drafted in though.

[Digby]

How do you just draft in extra Prem players?

Some of those who were called up to the EPS from outside the normal group were, not surprisingly, not doing well enough in fitness tests, the likes of Odogwu, and that could easily hold for others outside the normal EPS given it's time in the England camp seeing the raised levels which normally acts as a driver (or acceptance this is too high a level)

Also how do you just call up Prem players during a pandemic when you've established rules to limit movement in/out and within the squad

And then how do you just call up players when you've specifically agreed with the clubs to limit the size of the EPS for the event?

Simply citing form Prem players as being able to deliver seems at best mildly optimistic in the extreme

[Oakboy]

OK, I bore this board to death with my criticism of Jones. Here is Chris Jones' (BBC rugby correspondent) reaction to the RFU committee report:

"England head coach Eddie Jones has been backed to lead the side through to the World Cup in France in 2023, after the Rugby Football Union conducted a review into the "sub-optimal" Six Nations campaign.

The review absolved Jones of any direct criticism but found "systemic challenges" and a number of "contributory factors" were behind England's worst campaign in 45 years.

But which of these are valid reasons, and which feel like excuses?

We take a look at the RFU's explanations for England's underwhelming campaign.

Coaching - the absence of Jason Ryles and Neil Craig were a significant loss in coaching expertise and team support....The initial unavailability of Matt Proudfoot and isolation of Eddie Jones also had an effect.
Chris Jones: Jones was no doubt dealt a tough hand in the build-up to the tournament when it came to his coaching team.

While Craig's role with the England team has never been specified, Ryles is highly-rated and made a big impact in his previous short-term assignments.

However it was Jones' choice to draft in 28-year-old Ed Robinson from Jersey Reds to replace Ryles on a temporary basis, rather than a top-flight coach with more experience.

Are relations with the Premiership clubs so disjointed that no coach could be seconded to England for a two-month spell?

Furthermore, Jones insisted in January his self-isolation had not disrupted preparation in any shape or form, claiming he only missed one day of camp. "Has it been disruptive? Not one iota," he said.

Player preparation and availability - several players did not have enough game time going into the Six Nations. Conversely a wider group were fatigued as a result of being the only country to have back-to-back seasons...In addition, a handful of notable players were unavailable.
Chris Jones: The match-sharpness of the Saracens players was flagged as a major issue in the build-up to the campaign, with most of them - Billy Vunipola aside - without a game in two months.

However, Mark McCall and Jones were said to be in constant dialogue to ensure the players hit the ground running in the Six Nations, with both coaches deciding against giving the players any game time in Saracens' January matches.

Maro Itoje and Owen Farrell
Maro Itoje and Owen Farrell were part of a Saracens contingent who played little, if any, club rugby between the Autumn Nations Cup and the Six Nations
The back-to-back Premiership seasons, including midweek matches in August and September, no doubt placed strain on some players, especially without a pre-season to recharge.

However the season structure was signed off by the RFU in collaboration with Premiership Rugby, while Covid cancellations in December and January meant many players were a lot fresher than expected.

As for the 'notable players unavailable', injuries are part and parcel of the game - England's pool of players is big enough and good enough to cope with the odd absentee - while Kyle Sinckler's unavailability for the Scotland opener was self-inflicted.

Breakdown indiscipline - improvements required including lower body strength and appropriate skill modifications.
Chris Jones: This is a fascinating explanation for England's travails at the breakdown and their high penalty count.

But is it an admission the players are not coached properly, whether at club or international level?

Either way, for the most experienced England team of all time to be technically and physically deficient appears strange, if not concerning.

Covid - the necessary stringent protocols, in some cases greater than other unions, had a significant impact on coaching and support staff as well as the playing squad cohesion.
Chris Jones: With Covid cases rising at the turn of the year, England's Six Nations bubble protocols were significantly tighter compared to the Autumn Nations Cup.

With no mingling in the hotel and all meetings taking place outside, players spoke out about the difficulty of the environment both during and after the Championship, and there is no doubt it had a detrimental impact on performance.

The saga with France and their virus outbreak served as a reality check and a justification for the RFU's stringent rules. However Jones repeatedly stressed the need for England to be adaptable, while the other home nations also had their own challenges to deal with.

Squad transition - the agreed protocols, which the RFU and Eddie were fully supportive of due to Covid challenges, meant fixed squads prevented players coming in and out during the campaign as they would normally.
Chris Jones: While Jones was restricted to a 28-man squad, rather than the usual 32 or 33 or more, he still chose to select what he calls 'project' players like Paolo Odogwu or Harry Randall, rather than an individual more ready for Test rugby.

George Martin
Nineteen-year-old George Martin made his Test debut against Ireland after only a handful of Premiership appearances for Leicester
Furthermore, his shadow squad was littered with youth, meaning a rookie like teenage flanker George Martin was drafted into matchday squads rather than any number of experienced flankers operating in the Premiership.

Yes, there was little movement in and out, which prevented the selection of high-quality players like Sam Underhill or Joe Launchbury towards the end of the campaign. But Jones was still able to draft Sinckler in after the Scotland game, and was able to keep Mako Vunipola in camp as he made his comeback from injury.

Surely he would rather a squad that stayed together throughout the campaign, rather than have a chunk of players constantly returning to play club rugby in fallow weeks, as was the case for Scotland and Wales?

What happens next?
Among the recommendations, the RFU are seeking "greater alignment" between the England team and the clubs in a bid to find "common ground and goals for the English game moving forward".

Tension between club and country then; it was ever thus.

In 2015, before taking the job, Jones raised the issue of England players being torn between their clubs and country, and six years on this review suggests little has changed.

Part of the "greater alignment" will look to address the "increasing speed of the game", an inference that the Premiership is not preparing England players properly for international rugby.

Yet it was Jones who insisted in the autumn the international game was based on defence and kicking, hence England's conservative tactics at the end of 2020.

If you were a club director of rugby, you would be forgiven for being a bit confused about what the Twickenham hierarchy were after."

Another recommendation of note will see "external rugby experts" - hitherto anonymous - working with Jones after each campaign. Is this an indication he isn't being challenged enough, or is he not being given enough support by the RFU?

Or is it both?"

This is just one of the imponderables from a review that will leave England fans with as many questions as answers.

One guy's opinion, perhaps. However, reading the reaction comments from posters after the article, it seems that a significant majority (I won't bother to claim percentages) agree with me.

[Scrumhead]

Except a significant chunk of the people commenting on the BBC page don’t know that much about rugby ...

I’d wager most only watch test rugby and assume we should win every match ‘just because’.