Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Puja]

I'd still like to know exactly what his qualification is for England - I'd feel a lot more comfortable about poaching him if one of his parents was English as opposed to a distant grandparent, but the above commentary from the Daily Heil makes a lot of sense. Released from Cardiff and forced to switch uni in order to keep his rugby career going is not going to make him feel thrilled about the Welsh domestic system and then the upheaval from having to change university again after Wasps went under makes it very understandable that he just wants to commit to living in Exeter and nothing else.

Puja

[twitchy]

He went to an english boarding school and then an english university with time back in cardiff. How he actually "feels" who knows. It's obviously a career move but I'm not bothered by that.

[Mr Mwenda]

I already like him for the sense he is showing in decision making!

[twitchy]

Too much to cut and paste. Large article on borthball.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... thball-20/

[Which Tyler]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... thball-20/

https://archive.is/r06Ay

[Veyqun]

As uninspiring as Borthwick appears to be in public, I still just find myself grateful that Eddie Jones has gone. That unbeaten year in 2016 was so bewitching that it blinded me to all the obvious alarm bells right from early on. It was just so bizarre to see a mature (in age) man use the England rugby team to process (or rather not) all his childhood issues and wounds in front of the international rugby media. It must have been a pretty horrible/ traumatic environment for the players i should think. And I wonder if some of the sense that players are less connected to playing for England and tempted with an international break in France stems from the lingering stink of the Jones era.

I actually look fondly on the Stuart Lancaster era. A man who was honest and played it straight with his players. He took the values and culture thing a bit too far (it was bit too earnest) and he wasn't hard nosed enough. And if course the Sam Burgess thing was a huge error. But he was decent and I should think the players grew and had som fun under him. I don't particularly look back that harshly on the 2015 world cup.

I'd like Borthwick to be a decent man, pick the best side available, be hard nosed and realistic about the best game plan with he players (whatever tha leads to), and ensure the players and team have fun. A team we can be proud of is what I'm after. The world cup wasn't awful in that regard. Not a bad start.

[Mr Mwenda]

I judge the 2015 world cup harshly. It was pitiful.

[Mellsblue]

I judge the 2015 world cup harshly. It was pitiful.

Correct.

[FKAS]

I judge the 2015 world cup harshly. It was pitiful.

Correct.

I think pitiful is putting it mildly.

Lancaster had completely lost the squad by the world cup. He seems like a decent guy who knows a lot about the game but I have doubts over him as the main man. I think in a consultancy role behind a strong head man like at Leinster is where he's likely to flourish best but we'll see how he gets on at Racing.

[Banquo]

I judge the 2015 world cup harshly. It was pitiful.

Correct.

I think pitiful is putting it mildly.

Lancaster had completely lost the squad by the world cup. He seems like a decent guy who knows a lot about the game but I have doubts over him as the main man. I think in a consultancy role behind a strong head man like at Leinster is where he's likely to flourish best but we'll see how he gets on at Racing.

agreed.

On EJ- Eddie put backbone into the team- but far from perfect and lost it post 2019. Not an appealing public persona, but the tons of community clubs he voluntarily helped saw a bloke 100% committed to rugby and a fine and personable coach....but, like many, has gone on well past his sell by date. His results even including the lost plot look outstanding compared to the previous13 years- not much of a fan, but fairs fair.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Jones has always struck me as a short term fix to a long term problem.

[Banquo]

Jones has always struck me as a short term fix to a long term problem.

I think he always knew that here, hence his original comment when he started. We have a long term problem not yet addressed.

[16th man]

I actually look fondly on the Stuart Lancaster era. A man who was honest and played it straight with his players. He took the values and culture thing a bit too far (it was bit too earnest) and he wasn't hard nosed enough. And if course the Sam Burgess thing was a huge error. But he was decent and I should think the players grew and had som fun under him. I don't particularly look back that harshly on the 2015 world cup

I'm almost impressed by the degree of nostalgia based revisionism involved with being able to share this view

[Oakboy]

I actually look fondly on the Stuart Lancaster era. A man who was honest and played it straight with his players. He took the values and culture thing a bit too far (it was bit too earnest) and he wasn't hard nosed enough. And if course the Sam Burgess thing was a huge error. But he was decent and I should think the players grew and had som fun under him. I don't particularly look back that harshly on the 2015 world cup

I'm almost impressed by the degree of nostalgia based revisionism involved with being able to share this view

I suppose you could make a case for 'right man, wrong time' about every HC appointment since SCW. Hindsight is wonderful. With it, I'd argue that all of them were mistakes by the RFU, though (at the time) Jones was the only one I thought was bad for English rugby right from the start.

[FKAS]

The only problem with Eddie Jones was that the RFU didn't follow the original plan of him handing the team over after the 2019 world cup, even if it was a phased thing over the 2019/20 season we were ready for an injection of something new to drive us onwards from the platform Eddie had created.

If Borthwick can do a similar job over the next four years and get us up into a good place where we are solid to good in all areas then we need to be more focussed and then move him on for someone to drive us on to more than that. Vesty or similar.

[Which Tyler]

I suppose you could make a case for 'right man, wrong time' about every HC appointment since SCW. Hindsight is wonderful. With it, I'd argue that all of them were mistakes by the RFU, though (at the time) Jones was the only one I thought was bad for English rugby right from the start.

That's fun, Jones was about the only one I thought was right at the time (slight hyperbole)

AR was a good assistant, poor HC, at the time he was appointed, he was reasonably obvious.
BA was a desperation signing to settle the ship, I think he'd have come good in time, but was trying to short-cut his methods (which have always included creating a player revolt so that they can take ownership).
Johnson was always a terrible call as coach.
Lancaster was a good man, but at that point in time, he was only an assistant, and probably not an international level assistant. It's amazing what the addition of 3 RWC cycles of experience can make to... someone's experience level (especially when starting from basically zero). If appointed now, it would be 1 RWC cycle too early for the man.
Eddie was the obvious call, comfortably the best choice available. He should never have been renewed.
Borthwick is not quite as inexperienced an appointment as Lancaster of Johnson in terms of timing, but is at least 1 RWC cycle too soon for him, probably 2.

[Mellsblue]

The only problem with Eddie Jones was that the RFU didn't follow the original plan of him handing the team over after the 2019 world cup, even if it was a phased thing over the 2019/20 season we were ready for an injection of something new to drive us onwards from the platform Eddie had created.

If Borthwick can do a similar job over the next four years and get us up into a good place where we are solid to good in all areas then we need to be more focussed and then move him on for someone to drive us on to more than that. Vesty or similar.

Agreed.

[Banquo]

The only problem with Eddie Jones was that the RFU didn't follow the original plan of him handing the team over after the 2019 world cup, even if it was a phased thing over the 2019/20 season we were ready for an injection of something new to drive us onwards from the platform Eddie had created.

If Borthwick can do a similar job over the next four years and get us up into a good place where we are solid to good in all areas then we need to be more focussed and then move him on for someone to drive us on to more than that. Vesty or similar.

Agreed.

kinda, but we aren't being very ambitious about timescales to show real improvement. Maybe realistic I suppose, tho EJ hugely improved performance and results pretty quickly.

[16th man]

The only problem with Eddie Jones was that the RFU didn't follow the original plan of him handing the team over after the 2019 world cup, even if it was a phased thing over the 2019/20 season we were ready for an injection of something new to drive us onwards from the platform Eddie had created.

If Borthwick can do a similar job over the next four years and get us up into a good place where we are solid to good in all areas then we need to be more focussed and then move him on for someone to drive us on to more than that. Vesty or similar.

Agreed.

kinda, but we aren't being very ambitious about timescales to show real improvement. Maybe realistic I suppose, tho EJ hugely improved performance and results pretty quickly.

Do we want to be hugely ambitious or do we want to be thorough and systemic?

The quick fixes Eddie put in included Robshaw and Haskell dominating caps at 6 and 7 and when that fell apart it is a point of possible debate on how much Cunderhill then taking to International rugby as a pairing was luck or judgement.

[Banquo]

Agreed.

kinda, but we aren't being very ambitious about timescales to show real improvement. Maybe realistic I suppose, tho EJ hugely improved performance and results pretty quickly.

Do we want to be hugely ambitious or do we want to be thorough and systemic?

The quick fixes Eddie put in included Robshaw and Haskell dominating caps at 6 and 7 and when that fell apart it is a point of possible debate on how much Cunderhill then taking to International rugby as a pairing was luck or judgement.

Its not a binary choice, you can be both if you are any good. I didn't even say 'hugely ambitious'. I just think, 4 more years to get us on track is a bit poor as an aspiration. He moved Hask (after 2018 6N) and Robshaw (after 2018 tour) on when the team was still pretty much in credit- I suppose you could say he got lucky in having the best win record of any England coach if you wanted to, the ''quick fixes' culminating in a RWC final having had excellent results over 3 3/4 years ish

[16th man]

kinda, but we aren't being very ambitious about timescales to show real improvement. Maybe realistic I suppose, tho EJ hugely improved performance and results pretty quickly.

Do we want to be hugely ambitious or do we want to be thorough and systemic?

The quick fixes Eddie put in included Robshaw and Haskell dominating caps at 6 and 7 and when that fell apart it is a point of possible debate on how much Cunderhill then taking to International rugby as a pairing was luck or judgement.

Its not a binary choice, you can be both if you are any good. I didn't even say 'hugely ambitious'. I just think, 4 more years to get us on track is a bit poor as an aspiration. He moved Hask (after 2018 6N) and Robshaw (after 2018 tour) on when the team was still pretty much in credit- I suppose you could say he got lucky in having the best win record of any England coach if you wanted to, the ''quick fixes' culminating in a RWC final having had excellent results over 3 3/4 years ish

Good result =/= good process necessarily though.

And there's an argument to say the the post 2019 drop off suggests he had absolutely not addressed any underlying issues.

[Banquo]

Do we want to be hugely ambitious or do we want to be thorough and systemic?

The quick fixes Eddie put in included Robshaw and Haskell dominating caps at 6 and 7 and when that fell apart it is a point of possible debate on how much Cunderhill then taking to International rugby as a pairing was luck or judgement.

Its not a binary choice, you can be both if you are any good. I didn't even say 'hugely ambitious'. I just think, 4 more years to get us on track is a bit poor as an aspiration. He moved Hask (after 2018 6N) and Robshaw (after 2018 tour) on when the team was still pretty much in credit- I suppose you could say he got lucky in having the best win record of any England coach if you wanted to, the ''quick fixes' culminating in a RWC final having had excellent results over 3 3/4 years ish

Good result =/= good process though.

Good results over a long period of time probably doesn't equal bad process. We were in good shape post RWC 2019 to move on- there was a good foundation to build on, which EJ then squandered mostly on the altar of 4 more years to prepare for Peter Steph Du Toit and the saffer bomb squad.

[16th man]

Its not a binary choice, you can be both if you are any good. I didn't even say 'hugely ambitious'. I just think, 4 more years to get us on track is a bit poor as an aspiration. He moved Hask (after 2018 6N) and Robshaw (after 2018 tour) on when the team was still pretty much in credit- I suppose you could say he got lucky in having the best win record of any England coach if you wanted to, the ''quick fixes' culminating in a RWC final having had excellent results over 3 3/4 years ish

Good result =/= good process though.

Good results over a long period of time probably doesn't equal bad process. We were in good shape post RWC 2019 to move on- there was a good foundation to build on, which EJ then squandered mostly on the altar of 4 more years to prepare for Peter Steph Du Toit and the saffer bomb squad.

I'm not convinced "it was great until it all got ripped up and chucked in the bin after a bad loss" can be put to one side when discussing establishing processes for success.

[Banquo]

Good result =/= good process though.

Good results over a long period of time probably doesn't equal bad process. We were in good shape post RWC 2019 to move on- there was a good foundation to build on, which EJ then squandered mostly on the altar of 4 more years to prepare for Peter Steph Du Toit and the saffer bomb squad.

I'm not convinced "it was great until it all got ripped up and chucked in the bin after a bad loss" can be put to one side when discussing establishing processes for success.

Aside from putting words in my mouth, are you talking pre 2019 final, or post. If post, that was daft by Eddie as I said (happy to repeat he lost the plot after the 2019 world cup loss as many times as necessary), as he had built a decent squad to evolve from. If pre that wasn't really what happened.

(by the way, imo the underlying problem with the England side is not in the head coaches gift to fix)

[Mikey Brown]

Apologies posting this, it feels a bit like sharing a Daily Mail link, but this bit about Barbeary/Borthwick did make me laugh.