Oakboy wrote:
Has anybody had time to fully analyse the May take-out? At the time I was convinced that it was a deliberate, cynical act - far too contrived and late to be 'already committed' as the ref decided.
And, regardless of if it was late or not, it was definitely a shoulder charge without even a hint of arms. May was lucky it didn't catch his knee, as that could have been nasty.
Puja
I think it was similar to the Genge charge on Hastings, the player made sure he was committed to contact which would be fine if he'd made a tackle, as however it was a nailed on illegal shoulder charge I've no idea what the defence is for that not being a yellow card and probably a penalty try.
As regards piling in at the knee, well I don't like it but you're allowed to do that in a tackle, is there a difference to caving the knee in at the side with a tackle Vs a shoulder charge?
I though Genge made a legal (if dubiously timely challenge)?
A tackle is very different to a shoulder charge in terms of the bodily mechanics. A tackle requires you to put your head in and thus self-preservation means that you have some care about how you make contact (Leigh Halfpenny obviously excluded from this). You will always be able to go harder leading with a shoulder and your head tucked in. In addition, having your arm up creates a flat, broad shoulder shape which spreads the impact - going with your arm down means you are contacting with the pointy bit, creating a focussed, sharp impact.
While there is absolutely the chance of staving in someone's knee from the side with a legal tackle, it's a lot lower than if the same contact is made with a tucked arm and a shoulder.
Thats pretty outrageous, how did the ref AND all the officials miss that.
It's not like it wasn't right there in front of them, so could they have seen it and ruled it acceptable? We've seen red cards for similar recently in GP games but was it a different interpretation from a SA ref?
Sometimes the ref doesn't really see what happened (though literally in front of him, so...), its the sort of thing TMO's are usually very hot on. God knows they pick up much more trivial stuff all the time.
Puja wrote:
And, regardless of if it was late or not, it was definitely a shoulder charge without even a hint of arms. May was lucky it didn't catch his knee, as that could have been nasty.
Puja
I think it was similar to the Genge charge on Hastings, the player made sure he was committed to contact which would be fine if he'd made a tackle, as however it was a nailed on illegal shoulder charge I've no idea what the defence is for that not being a yellow card and probably a penalty try.
As regards piling in at the knee, well I don't like it but you're allowed to do that in a tackle, is there a difference to caving the knee in at the side with a tackle Vs a shoulder charge?
I though Genge made a legal (if dubiously timely challenge)?
Puja
I was thinking similar to Genge in that the tackler made sure they were committed to the tackle come what may, Lawes does similar at times
I think it was similar to the Genge charge on Hastings, the player made sure he was committed to contact which would be fine if he'd made a tackle, as however it was a nailed on illegal shoulder charge I've no idea what the defence is for that not being a yellow card and probably a penalty try.
As regards piling in at the knee, well I don't like it but you're allowed to do that in a tackle, is there a difference to caving the knee in at the side with a tackle Vs a shoulder charge?
I though Genge made a legal (if dubiously timely challenge)?
Puja
I was thinking similar to Genge in that the tackler made sure they were committed to the tackle come what may, Lawes does similar at times
I thought it was a very different intervention, he changed what he was doing when May kicked. Mind, I've only seen it twice, and had had a beer or two.
twitchy wrote:Just another high hit on itoje from ryan. He will definitely get banned for the france game (which is annoying as we want ireland to win that).
I was thinking how it always seem to work out that way with bans. I'm not sure I could support Ireland against France under any circumstances though.
Digby wrote:I'm almost ready to start watching the game back. In advance I'm expecting to see an England side who make a fast start and dominate the collisions win a game of rugby even though they couldn't do much with the physical dominance
I'm interested to hear both your assessment of Lawes as a 6 and also your opinion on Youngs, who I thought had his best game in years.
Puja
Just watched the match and I'd have to agree regarding Youngs. He seemed to get to rucks quicker and dare I say, his passing was more accurate. He still frustrates at times, but huge improvement. His grubber through for the try was sweet. Have to question his option to go for high flat passes so close to the Irish try line. He did it a few times and each time we lost the ball. For a start going high means the receiver is likely to be smashed in their midrift as they catch the ball...and that's if they can catch the ball. Would much rather see a player run onto the pass so they can hit the defensive line at speed...or even use them as a dummy runner and open up the backs.
But yeah, defnitely his best game for ages. Be interesting to see if he can back it up with another good display against Wales.
twitchy wrote:Just another high hit on itoje from ryan. He will definitely get banned for the france game (which is annoying as we want ireland to win that[/b]).
Oh no we don't!
I was thinking how it always seem to work out that way with bans. I'm not sure I could support Ireland against France under any circumstances though.
as an aside, I've seen comments saying now Lawes is an international 6 of stature (sic) thank goodness he won't be weakening our scrum as a lock any more. I've never perceived or heard of lawes as being a weak scrummager, in fact thought he was pretty good, although he isn't overly heavy. Anyone got any insight into his scrummaging prowess.
Banquo wrote:as an aside, I've seen comments saying now Lawes is an international 6 of stature (sic) thank goodness he won't be weakening our scrum as a lock any more. I've never perceived or heard of lawes as being a weak scrummager, in fact thought he was pretty good, although he isn't overly heavy. Anyone got any insight into his scrummaging prowess.
I'd assume that's fans with just enough knowledge to be dangerous adding 2 and 2 for 5 from our scrum getting munched in the RWC final and Eddie saying that, with hindsight, he would've played Kruis.
Given that they've drawn the conclusion that one swallow makes a porn star for Lawes, I wouldn't pay them that much mind!
Banquo wrote:as an aside, I've seen comments saying now Lawes is an international 6 of stature (sic) thank goodness he won't be weakening our scrum as a lock any more. I've never perceived or heard of lawes as being a weak scrummager, in fact thought he was pretty good, although he isn't overly heavy. Anyone got any insight into his scrummaging prowess.
I'd assume that's fans with just enough knowledge to be dangerous adding 2 and 2 for 5 from our scrum getting munched in the RWC final and Eddie saying that, with hindsight, he would've played Kruis.
Given that they've drawn the conclusion that one swallow makes a porn star for Lawes, I wouldn't pay them that much mind!
Puja
It was actually a quite sensible person who has played first class rugby in the front five. I was more asking if this had been anyone's thoughts previously.
Banquo wrote:as an aside, I've seen comments saying now Lawes is an international 6 of stature (sic) thank goodness he won't be weakening our scrum as a lock any more. I've never perceived or heard of lawes as being a weak scrummager, in fact thought he was pretty good, although he isn't overly heavy. Anyone got any insight into his scrummaging prowess.
I'd assume that's fans with just enough knowledge to be dangerous adding 2 and 2 for 5 from our scrum getting munched in the RWC final and Eddie saying that, with hindsight, he would've played Kruis.
Given that they've drawn the conclusion that one swallow makes a porn star for Lawes, I wouldn't pay them that much mind!
Puja
It was actually a quite sensible person who has played first class rugby in the front five. I was more asking if this had been anyone's thoughts previously.
Never heard it before and it's a bit strange for it to come out now after 80 odd caps.
Puja wrote:
I'd assume that's fans with just enough knowledge to be dangerous adding 2 and 2 for 5 from our scrum getting munched in the RWC final and Eddie saying that, with hindsight, he would've played Kruis.
Given that they've drawn the conclusion that one swallow makes a porn star for Lawes, I wouldn't pay them that much mind!
Puja
It was actually a quite sensible person who has played first class rugby in the front five. I was more asking if this had been anyone's thoughts previously.
Never heard it before and it's a bit strange for it to come out now after 80 odd caps.
Banquo wrote:as an aside, I've seen comments saying now Lawes is an international 6 of stature (sic) thank goodness he won't be weakening our scrum as a lock any more. I've never perceived or heard of lawes as being a weak scrummager, in fact thought he was pretty good, although he isn't overly heavy. Anyone got any insight into his scrummaging prowess.
I’ve heard people say it before, though to be fair not for a while, and it’s usually seemed based on his frame rather than any apparent experience of his power. I’ve also heard props who he has been behind say it is not an issue in the slightest.
I’m trying to think of the interview I saw a couple or three years back where in an interview one of the questions was regarding Lawes scrummaging power. Think it was Waller.
jngf wrote:Why did Ireland fail to win any ball? - did Eddie slip a pre kick off fiver to Andy Farrell to throw a match?
maybe our coach did a good job??
You’re right - it’s results that count and Eddie was successful. Lawes probably had his best game and was able to use his carrying to devastating effect and thoroughly deserved motm. Joesph and Daly had much better games, especially in aerial battle than I would have predicted too.
A lingering question I have is in the scenario where the Irish (or the Welsh to come) might have won more poccession, Lawes may have had to focus more on breakdown work which is less his forte.
I also think a massive question mark continues to hang over Curry staying at no.8. He played like a flanker in this match and did some great breakdown work, but I don’t recall him doing a single hard yards carry off the back of the scrum in the entire match. Indeed it would be interesting to compare the average carrying stats of Billy, Hughes, Simmonds and Curry and see what is revealed?
jngf wrote:Why did Ireland fail to win any ball? - did Eddie slip a pre kick off fiver to Andy Farrell to throw a match?
maybe our coach did a good job??
You’re right - it’s results that count and Eddie was successful. Lawes probably had his best game and was able to use his carrying to devastating effect and thoroughly deserved motm. Joesph and Daly had much better games, especially in aerial battle than I would have predicted too.
A lingering question I have is in the scenario where the Irish (or the Welsh to come) might have won more poccession, Lawes may have had to focus more on breakdown work which is less his forte.
I also think a massive question mark continues to hang over Curry staying at no.8. He played like a flanker in this match and did some great breakdown work, but I don’t recall him doing a single hard yards carry off the back of the scrum in the entire match. Indeed it would be interesting to compare the average carrying stats of Billy, Hughes, Simmonds and Curry and see what is revealed?
Underhill was my MOTM. I think you've now spotted that whilst Curry has an 8 on his back, he's not playing the role that you like to cast an 8 in, ie not trying to be Billy or Hughes. He's a stopgap imo, and a possible back up; I think had Wilson been fit, he'd have played there, as he was excellent filling in himself, and had the dexterity and pace to make yards from the base- Curry hasn't yet got that combo of comfortably controlling the ball, enabling the break off the back.
I personally don't think Lawes is a long term or permanent 6, he was just a horses for courses selection v Ireland, giving much more lineout threat and a bit of hard tackling to snuff out Irelands tight carries. JJ did fine, but isn't anything more than stop gap either.
Scrumhead wrote:Wilson is fit. He played 80 (ironically at 7) for Sale last week.
I wouldn’t be hugely surprised to see him drafted in to the squad for Wales.
I don't think he was fit to pick for an international last weekend though, its been a long lay off.
Fair comment though, on similar lines, it makes me think the sun must shine dramatically from a certain Slade orifice. Was he really ready to be one of only two backs on the bench? Needs must, I suppose, but where foes that leave Devoto, Thorley and a few others?
Scrumhead wrote:Wilson is fit. He played 80 (ironically at 7) for Sale last week.
I wouldn’t be hugely surprised to see him drafted in to the squad for Wales.
I don't think he was fit to pick for an international last weekend though, its been a long lay off.
Fair comment though, on similar lines, it makes me think the sun must shine dramatically from a certain Slade orifice. Was he really ready to be one of only two backs on the bench? Needs must, I suppose, but where foes that leave Devoto, Thorley and a few others?
Scrumhead wrote:Wilson is fit. He played 80 (ironically at 7) for Sale last week.
I wouldn’t be hugely surprised to see him drafted in to the squad for Wales.
I don't think he was fit to pick for an international last weekend though, its been a long lay off.
Fair comment though, on similar lines, it makes me think the sun must shine dramatically from a certain Slade orifice. Was he really ready to be one of only two backs on the bench? Needs must, I suppose, but where foes that leave Devoto, Thorley and a few others?
It's a shame for Devoto that Slade's return might mean his brush with the Eng team has slipped back down the agenda just as he was finally showing fitness and form. Banquo did say however that Eddie is a big fan of Slade from his book so it's not surprising he's been rushed back in. Thorley's a bit different in that Eddie saw fit to plunge Furbank in at the deep end in Paris but didn't countenance Thorley at home v Ire. I wonder what the thinking was.
