Team news for Wales

[p/d]

Bloody hell!! If we carry on analysing every play we will end up with 5 a side.

Both games were like watching RL played under RU laws

[Banquo]

Jones’ selection of backrow as unfathamable as ever. Take openside, I accept Wilson’s a reliable pick (some might say safety first) and has good speed endurance yet with both Ludlum and Earl available to start there and both a lot quicker and able to act as linkmen far more than Wilson, the former leapfrogs the pecking order (and that’s before we get onto the Curry situation). Ok Jones is winning triple crowns but so did England in Jack Rowell era and I feel in the forwards it’s safety first stodge rugby just like in the mid 90s that we’re now experiencing from a coach whose run out of sensible ideas.That notwithstanding, one newish selection that did seem to work very well was Slade at fullback who I thought looked very strong fielding at the back - he even borrowed Furbank’s disco moustache

Wilson is a terrific player imo. Great work rate, but more importantly, top decision making.

[Scrumhead]

This, Itoje seems to know what he is doing and just (juuuuust) about stays the right side of what the ref will allow. Even then, when he is caught out, he isn't petulant about it; takes it on the chin and cracks on, in stark contrast to Farrell, Biggar or O'Mahoney

I don't think we will move nearer our performance ceiling till Itoje is captain. The 'Farrell is God bit' just has to go.

Absolutely agreed on both counts. Listening to Farrell attempt to negotiate with the ref before Genge's yellow card was painful - he just came off sounding like he was either incredibly thick or deliberately pretending not to understand and, whichever it was, it wound O'Keefe up more (did anyone spot what Genge got penalised for btw? Seemed innocuous to me).

Say what you will about Robshaw or Hartley, but they both at least had the skill to engage in that kind of conversation without actively antagonising the ref (and neither of them gave away a penalty as captain by slapping someone who'd just dropped the ball and starting a "fight").

Puja

I’m late to the party on this, but absolutely agree on all counts.

Itoje is a nuisance and pushes the limits on a lot of the laws, but I’ve never seen anything from him that crosses the line in to violence. At worst, there may be a couple of incidences of recklessness, but nothing outright dangerous IIRC.

Farrell is a terrible choice of captain. I cringe when I hear him talking to referees and I just don’t believe a guy who has plenty of form for foul play and unnecessary niggle (like the two pushes this weekend) can be a serious choice to lead the team. History suggests that a lot of refs don’t need much of an incentive to ping us so having a captain with Farrell’s attitude is never going to help.

[Mikey Brown]

Don’t know if you saw this but Gilchrist landed in the worst way imaginable with his entire bodyweight on his neck.



I really am amazed he wasn’t hurt. Referee kept trying to brush it off as him being “rolled over” in the ruck which I thought was very strange. Initial tackler eventually got a yellow, but Willemse- the one who lifts a player and drives him head first in to the ground- got nothing.

We seem to be seeing more and more of these. In some cases I see why it is happening though. If we keep allowing players to limpet on to the ball/carrier while off their feet it leaves ruck clearers very few options but to lift the legs to shift them.

Jesus f*ck - no, I hadn't seen that. Maybe the photo is overly damning, but I'm astounded that wasn't a red.

Puja

I’ll try and find a clip of it. He is literally just turned over rather than driven from any height, but the point he hit the ground I actually thought was worse than the photo here shows, with both GG and Willemse’s (considerable) weight on his neck.

There was a lineout later on where basically everyone f*cked up and Ollivon somehow landed on his head, which also seemed to pass without much fuss. It wasn’t specifically anybody’s fault so I understand the desire to keep the game going but I feel like it’s just a matter of time before one of these incidents (or the horrendous choke tackle/neck roll tactic) results in a broken neck.

[Mikey Brown]

Then again, it might ruin PD’s enjoyment of the game. Swings and roundabouts really.

[Oakboy]

Jones’ selection of backrow as unfathamable as ever. Take openside, I accept Wilson’s a reliable pick (some might say safety first) and has good speed endurance yet with both Ludlum and Earl available to start there and both a lot quicker and able to act as linkmen far more than Wilson, the former leapfrogs the pecking order (and that’s before we get onto the Curry situation). Ok Jones is winning triple crowns but so did England in Jack Rowell era and I feel in the forwards it’s safety first stodge rugby just like in the mid 90s that we’re now experiencing from a coach whose run out of sensible ideas.That notwithstanding, one newish selection that did seem to work very well was Slade at fullback who I thought looked very strong fielding at the back - he even borrowed Furbank’s disco moustache

Wilson is a terrific player imo. Great work rate, but more importantly, top decision making.

Assuming everyone is fit apart from Billy V, just what is our best back row? Based on actual performances for England, I'd suggest that 6. Curry, 7. Underhill, 8. Wilson should be Jones's choice but who knows with him?

In any case, are we going to have any meaningful selection (of a genuine 1st XV) to debate before the AIs? By then, hopefully, Billy will be fit anyway and will presumably be selected even though he is playing in the Championship. Will the Italy game ever be played and how important is the Japan tour?

With relegation already decided in the GP, the next 6 months could be pretty dull.

[jngf]

Jones’ selection of backrow as unfathamable as ever. Take openside, I accept Wilson’s a reliable pick (some might say safety first) and has good speed endurance yet with both Ludlum and Earl available to start there and both a lot quicker and able to act as linkmen far more than Wilson, the former leapfrogs the pecking order (and that’s before we get onto the Curry situation). Ok Jones is winning triple crowns but so did England in Jack Rowell era and I feel in the forwards it’s safety first stodge rugby just like in the mid 90s that we’re now experiencing from a coach whose run out of sensible ideas.That notwithstanding, one newish selection that did seem to work very well was Slade at fullback who I thought looked very strong fielding at the back - he even borrowed Furbank’s disco moustache

Wilson is a terrific player imo. Great work rate, but more importantly, top decision making.

He’s all that but I’d describe him as solid rather than exciting - a play it very safe pick at openside in the way Robshaw was before him.

[jngf]

Jones’ selection of backrow as unfathamable as ever. Take openside, I accept Wilson’s a reliable pick (some might say safety first) and has good speed endurance yet with both Ludlum and Earl available to start there and both a lot quicker and able to act as linkmen far more than Wilson, the former leapfrogs the pecking order (and that’s before we get onto the Curry situation). Ok Jones is winning triple crowns but so did England in Jack Rowell era and I feel in the forwards it’s safety first stodge rugby just like in the mid 90s that we’re now experiencing from a coach whose run out of sensible ideas.That notwithstanding, one newish selection that did seem to work very well was Slade at fullback who I thought looked very strong fielding at the back - he even borrowed Furbank’s disco moustache

Wilson is a terrific player imo. Great work rate, but more importantly, top decision making.

Assuming everyone is fit apart from Billy V, just what is our best back row? Based on actual performances for England, I'd suggest that 6. Curry, 7. Underhill, 8. Wilson should be Jones's choice but who knows with him?

In any case, are we going to have any meaningful selection (of a genuine 1st XV) to debate before the AIs? By then, hopefully, Billy will be fit anyway and will presumably be selected even though he is playing in the Championship. Will the Italy game ever be played and how important is the Japan tour?

With relegation already decided in the GP, the next 6 months could be pretty dull.

I’m not so sure Billy will be an automatic selection if Jones goes.

[twitchy]

Article on sinckler.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... -englands/

[Stom]

The reffing of the breakdown is just appalling nowadays. Players fly in with no thought to welfare or the laws of the game. And the refs just let it pass.

But because of the law changes, any tackle that's slightly off is referred to the TMO for a 3 minute wait while we review slo-mo after slo-mo to decide whether or not he wrapped his arms or not...

All while the tackle itself wasn't particularly dangerous, especially when compared to the ruck before, where someone flew in and elbowed the guy in the face.

Which is ignored.

[Banquo]

Jones’ selection of backrow as unfathamable as ever. Take openside, I accept Wilson’s a reliable pick (some might say safety first) and has good speed endurance yet with both Ludlum and Earl available to start there and both a lot quicker and able to act as linkmen far more than Wilson, the former leapfrogs the pecking order (and that’s before we get onto the Curry situation). Ok Jones is winning triple crowns but so did England in Jack Rowell era and I feel in the forwards it’s safety first stodge rugby just like in the mid 90s that we’re now experiencing from a coach whose run out of sensible ideas.That notwithstanding, one newish selection that did seem to work very well was Slade at fullback who I thought looked very strong fielding at the back - he even borrowed Furbank’s disco moustache

Wilson is a terrific player imo. Great work rate, but more importantly, top decision making.

He’s all that but I’d describe him as solid rather than exciting - a play it very safe pick at openside in the way Robshaw was before him.

why so angry. He's a class act- maybe not a highlights reel player, but then neither was Hill.

[twitchy]

Rumours on twitter that the entire last round of the 6N will be postponed until the end of october.

[p/d]

Wilson is all class. No surprise to me Curry looked a far more mature test player when playing alongside old chisel jaw

[p/d]

Rumours on twitter that the entire last round of the 6N will be postponed until the end of october.

Good

[Scrumhead]

I don’t really understand the need for a ‘highlight reel’. A lot of the most effective work a good back row player will do is not glamorous or an obvious highlight.

While acplayer who is good at winning turnovers like Pocock can massively change the momentum of a game, there’s plenty of ‘unseen work’ that can be just as influential.

[p/d]

Then again, it might ruin PD’s enjoyment of the game. Swings and roundabouts really.

Not quite what a meant Mikey. Just the repeated slo-mo and endless debate/rewatch of ‘incidents’ really grates as a viewer. Up there with continuous close ups of muppets in the crowd and ‘football hugging’ after a try

[Banquo]

I don’t really understand the need for a ‘highlight reel’. A lot of the most effective work a good back row player will do is not glamorous or an obvious highlight.

While acplayer who is good at winning turnovers like Pocock can massively change the momentum of a game, there’s plenty of ‘unseen work’ that can be just as influential.

Neither do I, hence making the point. But some do, hence making the point .

I also don't buy 'unseen work' as a phrase though; you'll see it if you know what you are looking for.

[Oakboy]

I don’t really understand the need for a ‘highlight reel’. A lot of the most effective work a good back row player will do is not glamorous or an obvious highlight.

While acplayer who is good at winning turnovers like Pocock can massively change the momentum of a game, there’s plenty of ‘unseen work’ that can be just as influential.

Interesting that you say that. After about half an hour I was thinking that I'd seen little of Wilson just as one of the commentators referred to the number of tackles he had already made. For a while after that I concentrated on trying to watch Wilson. Of course, it is not necessarily easy to do that on TV because the director shows just what he deems to be the most exciting action. Despite that, it was obvious just how much work Wilson was putting in - like Robshaw in his prime but quicker across the grass. I think it is easy to just follow the ball on TV and I was glad to be prompted to concentrate more on the fringe of the action.

As you say, it was not Underhill-type thunder-tackling but it was coldly efficient and effective.

[Mikey Brown]

Then again, it might ruin PD’s enjoyment of the game. Swings and roundabouts really.

Not quite what a meant Mikey. Just the repeated slo-mo and endless debate/rewatch of ‘incidents’ really grates as a viewer. Up there with continuous close ups of muppets in the crowd and ‘football hugging’ after a try

Yeah, I totally get that. I could accept most games opening with 20 minutes of the ref dishing out penalties to every single infringement, if it meant that the game would tighten up in the long term. I think it might just be the price to be paid for letting so many areas of the game slip in to being a total mess.

The choice of replays and slow-mos is always very strange. Maybe it's just a habit that has developed to mask all the faffing about, but if we're going to see a super slow mo I'd rather see a bit of the actual game rather than someone pointing/shouting/spitting as they tend to do.

[jngf]

I don’t really understand the need for a ‘highlight reel’. A lot of the most effective work a good back row player will do is not glamorous or an obvious highlight.

While acplayer who is good at winning turnovers like Pocock can massively change the momentum of a game, there’s plenty of ‘unseen work’ that can be just as influential.

Interesting that you say that. After about half an hour I was thinking that I'd seen little of Wilson just as one of the commentators referred to the number of tackles he had already made. For a while after that I concentrated on trying to watch Wilson. Of course, it is not necessarily easy to do that on TV because the director shows just what he deems to be the most exciting action. Despite that, it was obvious just how much work Wilson was putting in - like Robshaw in his prime but quicker across the grass. I think it is easy to just follow the ball on TV and I was glad to be prompted to concentrate more on the fringe of the action.

As you say, it was not Underhill-type thunder-tackling but it was coldly efficient and effective.

I guess the point I’m putting forward is that Wilson’s qualities shout out to me high work rate, grafting, out and out blindside flanker - and I like an openside to be a bit more like an extra three quarter (much like Tips demonstrated on Saturday!)

[Beasties]

I don’t really understand the need for a ‘highlight reel’. A lot of the most effective work a good back row player will do is not glamorous or an obvious highlight.

While acplayer who is good at winning turnovers like Pocock can massively change the momentum of a game, there’s plenty of ‘unseen work’ that can be just as influential.

Interesting that you say that. After about half an hour I was thinking that I'd seen little of Wilson just as one of the commentators referred to the number of tackles he had already made. For a while after that I concentrated on trying to watch Wilson. Of course, it is not necessarily easy to do that on TV because the director shows just what he deems to be the most exciting action. Despite that, it was obvious just how much work Wilson was putting in - like Robshaw in his prime but quicker across the grass. I think it is easy to just follow the ball on TV and I was glad to be prompted to concentrate more on the fringe of the action.

As you say, it was not Underhill-type thunder-tackling but it was coldly efficient and effective.

Wilson has always been a better player than Robshaw imo, especially so at 7. Both top grafters who'd do anyone esle's dirty work (hello Courtenay) but Wilson has been unheralded because of being at Ncl until relatively recently. Eddie even tried to pick the wrong Ncl flanker before eventually giving in to him.

[fivepointer]

Funny innit. Wilson was ignored for years despite being one of the most effective and consistent players in the Premiership, finally gets a chance in Argentina due to others being unavailable where he excelled and was then ignored for a year. He only got another opportunity as injuries limited Jones options.
The guy is an absolute diamond who should have played a lot more games for England.

[Scrumhead]

100%. The first time I remember really thinking ‘this guy is great’ was watching him play for the Saxons against the Wolfhounds in 2015 (I think). Pretty sure he was MoM and he was just immense.

Very frustrating to think how much more he could have added before he finally got recognised. Particularly given how poorly our back row was functioning for a good chunk of that too.

It’s unfortunate for him that our back row options are so good now. He’s a great player to have around but time waits for no man and I’d be pretty amazed if the likes of Willis or Hill don’t overhaul him in the next couple of years.

Oh and just to call out a rarity ... jngf - I agree with you Wilson is a 6 not a 7.

[Oakboy]

Assuming all back rowers are fit, I still like Wilson at 6, Billy at 8 and one of Willis, Curry or Underhill at 7 but I'd not be surprised if Jones does not go that way. I'm not even sure he will go back to Billy at 8 and, based on his last half dozen or so performances, that might be reasonable. How will Billy prove he is back in form from the lower tier?

[Banquo]

Assuming all back rowers are fit, I still like Wilson at 6, Billy at 8 and one of Willis, Curry or Underhill at 7 but I'd not be surprised if Jones does not go that way. I'm not even sure he will go back to Billy at 8 and, based on his last half dozen or so performances, that might be reasonable. How will Billy prove he is back in form from the lower tier?

Billy was very good against both Oz and NZ.