Stade de France Saturday 19th March

[Timbo]

I can't believe that this is essentially the team that gave us such an emphatic reaming in a world cup semi two and a half years ago.

It’s clearly not though. From that semi 3 starters in the pack and 1 in the back line started tonight.

[francoisfou]

Eddie, if you're reading this, you really ought to do the decent thing, and fuck off back to Oz.
In your defence, and it's not much, is that you were up against the next World Cup champions, but with the resources you have, you really should have done better.
As a dual nationality bloke, I had feet in both camps, but predominantly in the English camp, so I'm delighted with a French Slam but extremely disappointed with the performance of the England side, for the second successive 6N. No excuses, mate, you ought to do a lot better. Step aside and give someone else the opportunity to build a side to compete in the World Cup.

[Puja]

Main problem today was those one up carries with nobody clearing out. You know France are superb at the breakdown, it's just immensely stupid to keep handing them either a turnover or the chance to slow down (the already creakingly slow) Youngs ball. Partly we missed Curry, but it's on the whole pack to carry as a team not as individuals. Also another reason why Lawes should be in the 2nd row, we need a flanker that will hit rucks and follow the ball to play alongside Underhill and Simmonds.

Watching that game, I couldn't help thinking of how we employed Haskell at 7 back in 2016-17 - just be first man in at the breakdown and clear out, nothing else. It's simple, it's basic, it's certainly not a "no ceiling" sort of tactic, but I can't help but feel that we'd've won at least four games this 6N if we'd played Lawes at 5 and had 2016!James Haskell or someone doing the same job in the back row.

Puja

The thought of Haskell in this shapeless/podless/formationless/numberless/hopeless game plan makes me simultaneously shudder and cry with laughter.

I mean Haskell being given that same rigid no-choices structure, not Haskell being allowed to make his own decisions. No-one wants Haskell making his own decisions.

Puja

[Banquo]

Marchant brilliant.
Itoje, Lawes, Simmonds, George and Stuart all grafted well defensively.
Steward ridiculous in the air, Smith looked dangerous but at times naive. Genge was extremely entertaining, but a lot of those metres were very cheap and he generally ran down blind alleys.
Otherwise, Youngs was awful. The ball died with Slade constantly. Isiekwe was pretty anonymous as was Underhill outside a couple of signature chops. Daly meh. And I still just don't see what Furbank's usp is. He's a solid PRM pro, a decent secondary playmaker, but he's not a strike runner, isn't great under the high ball, is an ineffective tackler and questionable decision maker. Just don't get it. He's decent on the volley though...
Main problem today was those one up carries with nobody clearing out. You know France are superb at the breakdown, it's just immensely stupid to keep handing them either a turnover or the chance to slow down (the already creakingly slow) Youngs ball. Partly we missed Curry, but it's on the whole pack to carry as a team not as individuals. Also another reason why Lawes should be in the 2nd row, we need a flanker that will hit rucks and follow the ball to play alongside Underhill and Simmonds.
Be happy if Youngs is never seen in an England shirt again. Same Furbank unless I'm just missing something. Starting to think Slade is a massive liability too.

Not having that Underhill was anonymous. Kept us in the game at times on his own. He workrate and defensive ability on the gainline was different level.

yep most pundits have him as our motm. He is just v different to Curry, and that leadership and skill set was missed

[Banquo]

I can't believe that this is essentially the team that gave us such an emphatic reaming in a world cup semi two and a half years ago.

It’s clearly not though. From that semi 3 starters in the pack and 1 in the back line started tonight.

thats quite a stat! revealing.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

I was probably unfair to Underhill, but, I think France are probably the team where his game gets a bit lost. He can make tackles all day, but if nobody is competing in the ruck to force turnovers it doesn't look too impressive. Also France are so good at keeping the ball moving if you don't wrap up the ball in the tackle (not Underhill's style) they'll get it moving so quickly.
On the halfbacks, I think it is unfair to judge Smith on this tournament. He's obviously been told to play what he sees in front of him and he is, but without any structured play around him and with Youngs combining slow delivery with bad delivery or Randall trying to speed things up but not being quite there with decision making or execution he hasn't really got a chance. I think Ford is still the better FH, but dropping Smith now would be really difficult. All depends what happens when the iceman comes back I guess!

[Mellsblue]

If Farrell isn’t in the 10 shirt this summer I’ll be both amazed and over joyed.

[Banquo]

I was probably unfair to Underhill, but, I think France are probably the team where his game gets a bit lost. He can make tackles all day, but if nobody is competing in the ruck to force turnovers it doesn't look too impressive. Also France are so good at keeping the ball moving if you don't wrap up the ball in the tackle (not Underhill's style) they'll get it moving so quickly.
On the halfbacks, I think it is unfair to judge Smith on this tournament. He's obviously been told to play what he sees in front of him and he is, but without any structured play around him and with Youngs combining slow delivery with bad delivery or Randall trying to speed things up but not being quite there with decision making or execution he hasn't really got a chance. I think Ford is still the better FH, but dropping Smith now would be really difficult. All depends what happens when the iceman comes back I guess!

Quite tricky to compete at every ruck in defence when you are making 17 tackles covering up others misses

and whilst I sympathise on Smith, the attack looks to be the way it is to suit his style- and not too worried by his running and passing....but he did do some odd stuff.

[francoisfou]

If Farrell isn’t in the 10 shirt this summer I’ll be both amazed and over joyed.

If Eddie isn't head coach this summer, I'll be both amazed and overjoyed!

[Mellsblue]

“Hello England fan. I have some snake oil to sell you.”

“We played with cohesion” fml
“It takes a long time to build a team…. France have been together since before the World Cup and this is the first thing they’ve won”…. good job you waited until 18 months out to build this new team then.

[Timbo]

If Smith was a rugby league player he’d play stand off, not halfback. He’s the guy you throw the ball to on the 5th tackle to play the killer pass/run/kick. But he’s struggling, at this level, to run a game (and does he even run a game at Quins really? It’s mainly Care isn’t it?) I think we’d be better right now with Ford and/or Farrell in this team. I suppose the pay off comes from picking Smith now and backing him to crack it over the next 12-16 months, as his ceiling is very high.

[Mellsblue]

I agree that we should stick with Smith, as much as I think Ford would lead to better results/performances in the next 10 months, but I’m not sure anyone could crack it the way the team are playing. Even Itoje looked below international standard today.

[Spiffy]

Have to say the backs looked ok from time to time with the ball against a very good defence, (as above when Smith wrapped) though most of the attacking kicks were dire, and our starting half backs have big question marks for me. Defence wasnt really tested but looked soft in the face of having to backpedal. Steward was fine in his tasking in attack- but needs to be at 15. Desperately need a cutting edge somewhere.

Up front, esp 1st half, support for carriers was either absent or making bad decisions, and our mauling was technically weak and rushed.

Thats a good french team but they kicked us a lot of ball, and we did rack up a lot of yards- but we didnt use thm well....see breakdown... and when France chose to play in the final third we were torn part...also see breakdown

Re.backs. it was the same old same old, though Marchant looked quite effective when he popped up in the 12 channel and played like a hard running IC. In the absence of Tuilagi or any other likely candidates, perhaps he could be considered for that role in the future and given a run of games. Slade has not contributed a lot to the midfield for some time and looks to be living on reputation. Smith seems to over egg it at times, but to be fair, he has little support on either side at 9 and 12.

[Mellsblue]

8pm Saturday kickoffs are rubbish.

Cos you end up lying in bed at 10 mins past midnight unable to sleep as you’re too pissed off at how crap the England rugby team are?

[jngf]

Marchant brilliant.
Itoje, Lawes, Simmonds, George and Stuart all grafted well defensively.
Steward ridiculous in the air, Smith looked dangerous but at times naive. Genge was extremely entertaining, but a lot of those metres were very cheap and he generally ran down blind alleys.
Otherwise, Youngs was awful. The ball died with Slade constantly. Isiekwe was pretty anonymous as was Underhill outside a couple of signature chops. Daly meh. And I still just don't see what Furbank's usp is. He's a solid PRM pro, a decent secondary playmaker, but he's not a strike runner, isn't great under the high ball, is an ineffective tackler and questionable decision maker. Just don't get it. He's decent on the volley though...
Main problem today was those one up carries with nobody clearing out. You know France are superb at the breakdown, it's just immensely stupid to keep handing them either a turnover or the chance to slow down (the already creakingly slow) Youngs ball. Partly we missed Curry, but it's on the whole pack to carry as a team not as individuals. Also another reason why Lawes should be in the 2nd row, we need a flanker that will hit rucks and follow the ball to play alongside Underhill and Simmonds.
Be happy if Youngs is never seen in an England shirt again. Same Furbank unless I'm just missing something. Starting to think Slade is a massive liability too.

Not having that Underhill was anonymous. Kept us in the game at times on his own. He workrate and defensive ability on the gainline was different level.

Can’t see how Curry would have done any better than Underhill to be honest - Underhill imo’s the better openside of the two (and please don’t anybody wilfully misinterpret that as me saying Curry’s not a good player - I would have much rather have had a fit Curry than Lawes at 6) on another point - Simmonds definitely has explosive pace which England need to use - but I’m not convinced he was the physical power component (that in part comes from shear size) to make explosive pick up and drives off the back of the scrum - I haven’t seem do this in the tests where he’s started at 8 yet.

Finally despite the results not coming yet the Smith and Randall combination needs to be given time - I’ve personally no interest in reverting to the stodgy rugby of Farrell, Billy et al even if it did see off a less than vintage All Blacks side in 2019 semi final

[Cameo]

meh. coulda been worse, coulda been better

I'd say that was the worst possible result actually. If we'd got cuffed by 40 points, then change would've been required, either change of coach or change of approach. Alternately, had we looked convincing, then I was willing to be persuaded that there was something to our "plan".

As it is, we were comfortably taken care of, but not so decisively on the scoreboard that anyone has to admit anything is wrong.

Puja

Do you lot think this is part of some master plan for the World Cup or is it just not going very well? It feels so strange as Eddie Jones has built a bit of an aura around him that seems to make people assume he is three steps ahead of them, but it is weird seeing England just not at the races. You are not terrible (speaking as a Scotland fan) but you are also nowhere near as good as the top two sides in the 6N.

[Stom]

I was probably unfair to Underhill, but, I think France are probably the team where his game gets a bit lost. He can make tackles all day, but if nobody is competing in the ruck to force turnovers it doesn't look too impressive. Also France are so good at keeping the ball moving if you don't wrap up the ball in the tackle (not Underhill's style) they'll get it moving so quickly.
On the halfbacks, I think it is unfair to judge Smith on this tournament. He's obviously been told to play what he sees in front of him and he is, but without any structured play around him and with Youngs combining slow delivery with bad delivery or Randall trying to speed things up but not being quite there with decision making or execution he hasn't really got a chance. I think Ford is still the better FH, but dropping Smith now would be really difficult. All depends what happens when the iceman comes back I guess!

Quite tricky to compete at every ruck in defence when you are making 17 tackles covering up others misses

and whilst I sympathise on Smith, the attack looks to be the way it is to suit his style- and not too worried by his running and passing....but he did do some odd stuff.

The thing is, nearly every good player in that team did some odd stuff, and a lot of the not so good players did it, too. This team looked like it was simply confused, confounded, and lacking in managerial support. This looked like the worst coached England side since Andy Robinson, and we've had some pretty terribly coached sides since then...

I mean, if you can take someone as world class as Itoje and, over the course of a 6N, grind him into a below average international? Well done, fantastic bloody job, mate.

Eddie does not do building, it seems. He doesn't have patience to set down long term plans that aren't built around one stupid ass concept, and then stick to them. And that rubs off in a team that lacks patience, always going for the big play, big carry, or big hit instead of showing patience and waiting for the opening.

[Banquo]

I was probably unfair to Underhill, but, I think France are probably the team where his game gets a bit lost. He can make tackles all day, but if nobody is competing in the ruck to force turnovers it doesn't look too impressive. Also France are so good at keeping the ball moving if you don't wrap up the ball in the tackle (not Underhill's style) they'll get it moving so quickly.
On the halfbacks, I think it is unfair to judge Smith on this tournament. He's obviously been told to play what he sees in front of him and he is, but without any structured play around him and with Youngs combining slow delivery with bad delivery or Randall trying to speed things up but not being quite there with decision making or execution he hasn't really got a chance. I think Ford is still the better FH, but dropping Smith now would be really difficult. All depends what happens when the iceman comes back I guess!

Quite tricky to compete at every ruck in defence when you are making 17 tackles covering up others misses

and whilst I sympathise on Smith, the attack looks to be the way it is to suit his style- and not too worried by his running and passing....but he did do some odd stuff.

The thing is, nearly every good player in that team did some odd stuff, and a lot of the not so good players did it, too. This team looked like it was simply confused, confounded, and lacking in managerial support. This looked like the worst coached England side since Andy Robinson, and we've had some pretty terribly coached sides since then...

I mean, if you can take someone as world class as Itoje and, over the course of a 6N, grind him into a below average international? Well done, fantastic bloody job, mate.

Eddie does not do building, it seems. He doesn't have patience to set down long term plans that aren't built around one stupid ass concept, and then stick to them. And that rubs off in a team that lacks patience, always going for the big play, big carry, or big hit instead of showing patience and waiting for the opening.

That’s fair, but when you are the player who has his hands on the ball the second most in the team, the impact is greater- and you are bang on about lack of patience.

[Stom]

Quite tricky to compete at every ruck in defence when you are making 17 tackles covering up others misses

and whilst I sympathise on Smith, the attack looks to be the way it is to suit his style- and not too worried by his running and passing....but he did do some odd stuff.

The thing is, nearly every good player in that team did some odd stuff, and a lot of the not so good players did it, too. This team looked like it was simply confused, confounded, and lacking in managerial support. This looked like the worst coached England side since Andy Robinson, and we've had some pretty terribly coached sides since then...

I mean, if you can take someone as world class as Itoje and, over the course of a 6N, grind him into a below average international? Well done, fantastic bloody job, mate.

Eddie does not do building, it seems. He doesn't have patience to set down long term plans that aren't built around one stupid ass concept, and then stick to them. And that rubs off in a team that lacks patience, always going for the big play, big carry, or big hit instead of showing patience and waiting for the opening.

That’s fair, but when you are the player who has his hands on the ball the second most in the team, the impact is greater- and you are bang on about lack of patience.

The thing is, Eddie has done exactly what he said he'd do, more or less. He's built a team in his image. An angry little man who has no patience for anyone, shouts its mouth off, and isn't nice to watch.

Robshaw was kinda the face of "nice England" to me, and to many. Typical clean player who works his ass off and actually works on his skills, just lacks that top end.

Farrell is the face of lad England. A gobby shite who's familial history has fast tracked him above more naturally talented players.

And we see which one Eddie prefers.

I don't like it. England don't play like England, despite what Eddie said about playing to England's historic strengths. They play like an angry little man with no patience.

[fivepointer]

Smith is just over playing. He's trying a bit too hard to make things happen. Some of his decisions and execution hasnt been great - some of his kicking last night was dreadful.
Its wrong to focus on one player in a side that is looking unco-ordinated and a bit directionless.
We have barely moved forward from the Scotland game. Our attack has produced little of note, there is no moves, no dummy runners, the forwards dont pass or offload and our back 3 are largely redundant. Just what has Gleeson been doing this last couple of months?
Few players have shown any progress. Some have gone backwards. The SH issue is STILL ongoing. Just what are we doing in the centres and who is our starting 8?
18 months out from a WC we look in poor shape.

[Oakboy]

I said before the 6N that Itoje was our only certain starter. The response was that we knew our best 28 or whatever and had alternatives for every position. SCW has now apparently questioned, 'What is our starting XV?'

With 14 or 15 matches to go to the RWC, the kindest I can be on our selection situation is 'muddled'. The players, from game to game, look confused. They do not know with even the slightest degree of continuity how they are supposed to play. The one occasion that things looked natural and joined-up was when we were down to 14 and all pre-match planning was dumped.

It's time for all Jones-apologists, especially those in decision-making positions at the RFU, to wake up and smell the coffee. Jones is floundering. The team performances must average about 60% of potential based on this 6N.

I really don't care who replaces him in the short term. Just give the job to Cockerill or whoever up to the RWC with a brief to find the best XV, stick to it and play simple rugby. Straightforward consistency of selection and an inspiration of players to give of their best will do. Bloody hell, I'd even accept Farrell at 10 for the next 18 months if that's the only way to get back to 100% effort consistently.

One thing is certain. We cannot go on like we are.

[Banquo]

Smith is just over playing. He's trying a bit too hard to make things happen. Some of his decisions and execution hasnt been great - some of his kicking last night was dreadful.
Its wrong to focus on one player in a side that is looking unco-ordinated and a bit directionless.
We have barely moved forward from the Scotland game. Our attack has produced little of note, there is no moves, no dummy runners, the forwards dont pass or offload and our back 3 are largely redundant. Just what has Gleeson been doing this last couple of months?
Few players have shown any progress. Some have gone backwards. The SH issue is STILL ongoing. Just what are we doing in the centres and who is our starting 8?
18 months out from a WC we look in poor shape.

I think its right to point out when players are making mistakes that are unforced, as indeed you have just done. But I agree the team as whole lacks shape and discipline- which compounds the issues we have on player quality.

And you can ask those questions, but some are driven by the limited options available,

[Banquo]

I said before the 6N that Itoje was our only certain starter. The response was that we knew our best 28 or whatever and had alternatives for every position. SCW has now apparently questioned, 'What is our starting XV?'

With 14 or 15 matches to go to the RWC, the kindest I can be on our selection situation is 'muddled'. The players, from game to game, look confused. They do not know with even the slightest degree of continuity how they are supposed to play. The one occasion that things looked natural and joined-up was when we were down to 14 and all pre-match planning was dumped.

It's time for all Jones-apologists, especially those in decision-making positions at the RFU, to wake up and smell the coffee. Jones is floundering. The team performances must average about 60% of potential based on this 6N.

I really don't care who replaces him in the short term. Just give the job to Cockerill or whoever up to the RWC with a brief to find the best XV, stick to it and play simple rugby. Straightforward consistency of selection and an inspiration of players to give of their best will do. Bloody hell, I'd even accept Farrell at 10 for the next 18 months if that's the only way to get back to 100% effort consistently.

One thing is certain. We cannot go on like we are.

Effort is not the issue. The issues are....shortage of quality players in key positions (you could argue on 'succession planning', but mostly its just not top notch quality), dreadful discipline, technique and decision making at the breakdown, calm heads under pressure, leadership across the board--- and too many switches in strategic direction- I reckon 4 since the last World cup. I think what you are seeing is Eddie trying to find a formula that might work for the world cup with the player group available, knowing that territorial rugby with out physicalling the oppo (which was his preferred route for 'England's strengths) probably not successful with what he and we can see as the talent pool. But its all a bit rubbish tbh- some of it is what the players do (they can be colossally dim and slow to react to what is actually happening), but a lot is in the preparation. That said, silk purse, sow's ear and all that- but the basics should be tons better.

[Banquo]

The thing is, nearly every good player in that team did some odd stuff, and a lot of the not so good players did it, too. This team looked like it was simply confused, confounded, and lacking in managerial support. This looked like the worst coached England side since Andy Robinson, and we've had some pretty terribly coached sides since then...

I mean, if you can take someone as world class as Itoje and, over the course of a 6N, grind him into a below average international? Well done, fantastic bloody job, mate.

Eddie does not do building, it seems. He doesn't have patience to set down long term plans that aren't built around one stupid ass concept, and then stick to them. And that rubs off in a team that lacks patience, always going for the big play, big carry, or big hit instead of showing patience and waiting for the opening.

That’s fair, but when you are the player who has his hands on the ball the second most in the team, the impact is greater- and you are bang on about lack of patience.

The thing is, Eddie has done exactly what he said he'd do, more or less. He's built a team in his image. An angry little man who has no patience for anyone, shouts its mouth off, and isn't nice to watch.

Robshaw was kinda the face of "nice England" to me, and to many. Typical clean player who works his ass off and actually works on his skills, just lacks that top end.

Farrell is the face of lad England. A gobby shite who's familial history has fast tracked him above more naturally talented players.

And we see which one Eddie prefers.

I don't like it. England don't play like England, despite what Eddie said about playing to England's historic strengths. They play like an angry little man with no patience.

Yes but we were very shyte under Robshaw/Burt (again a limited nice guy at the time) and at the end were losing mostly. The problem with Eddie's approach is of course, when we don't win. Neither environment seems right.

[p/d]

Firstly, France are bloody marvellous to watch. Have ability to change gear and step up at key points. Very much the signs of a WC winning side. Class.

Us, well, we play exactly like a side trying too hard to try and compete. Where France have cohesion and control we have frantic and poor execution. We complicate when we need simplicity, we stick to a plan when we should be playing what is in front of us.

The pack lacks that ‘something’, be it simply Curry working with the outstanding Underhill or a nasty lock, whatever it is we made it easy for France. 9 & 10 became more a problem than a problem solver and as good as Steward was we still sacrificed an out and out flier in an attempt to try and stop France winning rather than to play to win

Players take some stick but wtf is Gleeson trying to get them to do!!