RugbyRebels

cashead wrote:Nah, I'll read Gunm instead.

Well you could do both, I checked the warning label and apparently it's allowed.

My son is a big graphic novel fan, would the books would be appropriate for a 10 year old?

J Dory wrote:

cashead wrote:Nah, I'll read Gunm instead.

Well you could do both, I checked the warning label and apparently it's allowed.

My son is a big graphic novel fan, would the books would be appropriate for a 10 year old?

I wouldn’t. They’re fairly violent.

Anyone looking forward to Joker? Trailers look fantastic.

I’m so sick of all the comic book garbage in general but it did look like it might be entertaining. He’s usually fantastic in everything he’s in too.

The whole “love letter to future mass-shooter vibe” discussion has got me a bit unsure though.

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m so sick of all the comic book garbage in general but it did look like it might be entertaining. He’s usually fantastic in everything he’s in too.

The whole “love letter to future mass-shooter vibe” discussion has got me a bit unsure though.

Have you seen The Sisters Brothers, he's in that with John C Reilly and Jake Gyllenhall, a good gold rush era film.

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m so sick of all the comic book garbage in general but it did look like it might be entertaining. He’s usually fantastic in everything he’s in too.

The whole “love letter to future mass-shooter vibe” discussion has got me a bit unsure though.

Blaming popular entertainment for violent crime is lazy as fuck.

cashead wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m so sick of all the comic book garbage in general but it did look like it might be entertaining. He’s usually fantastic in everything he’s in too.

The whole “love letter to future mass-shooter vibe” discussion has got me a bit unsure though.

Blaming popular entertainment for violent crime is lazy as fuck.

As of a general rule, I'd agree with you, but the trailers do suggest a plot of, "If you're lonely, sad, failing at life, and generally a bit crap, then killing people will gain you notoriety, fame, and make you cool and awesome." That's not a good message to promulgate, especially with the incel communities on the interwebs.

Puja

cashead wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m so sick of all the comic book garbage in general but it did look like it might be entertaining. He’s usually fantastic in everything he’s in too.

The whole “love letter to future mass-shooter vibe” discussion has got me a bit unsure though.

Blaming popular entertainment for violent crime is lazy as fuck.

About as lazy as your take on what I just said, yeah. For what it’s worth I largely agree. I’ve just seen a few more thoughtful and compelling arguments about this one than the usual ‘see violence - do violence’ take.

I wasn’t trying to derail the conversation on to this topic, but I’ve read a bunch of things largely from women saying how this is exactly the kind of pandering to white, male entitlement that terrifies them.

It’s not like it’s hard to prompt a load of death threats from angry incels online but the responses a lot of these women got for even voicing these concerns did quite a good job of demonstrating their points.

As I said it’s not necessarily a reason to dismiss the film, and this is all based on a trailer so far, but it’s quite reasonable to consider it.

This guy gets it.

Know what else is lazy as fuck? Using the same porno plot template to make dozens of films based on characters already formed by comics and chucking billions of dollars worth of special effects and salaries at them to gloss them up.

Mikey Brown wrote:

cashead wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m so sick of all the comic book garbage in general but it did look like it might be entertaining. He’s usually fantastic in everything he’s in too.

The whole “love letter to future mass-shooter vibe” discussion has got me a bit unsure though.

Blaming popular entertainment for violent crime is lazy as fuck.

and this is all based on a trailer so far, but it’s quite reasonable to consider it.

And this is precisely my issue - it's largely sight unseen other than a selection of short clips edited together, often out of sequence for a film that is clearly heavily influenced by New York-era Scorsese (specifically Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy). It would be nice if the chin-stroking thinkpieces could wait until after the film has actually been released.

Forgive me if that didn't sound like what your issue was.

Toy Story 4
A] Completely unecessary, as 3 left off perfectly
B] Still really good though
C] I should have learnt by now - don't watch new PIXAR films during hayfever season!

Finally watched Fruitvale Station after putting it off for years. As hard to watch as I thought it might be. It's not like people need much reminding of incidents of young, black men being murdered by police officers, but I understand why people have said it's a film you kind of have to see.

cashead wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

cashead wrote: Blaming popular entertainment for violent crime is lazy as fuck.

and this is all based on a trailer so far, but it’s quite reasonable to consider it.

And this is precisely my issue - it's largely sight unseen other than a selection of short clips edited together, often out of sequence for a film that is clearly heavily influenced by New York-era Scorsese (specifically Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy). It would be nice if the chin-stroking thinkpieces could wait until after the film has actually been released.

Managed to see this yet?

Unsurprisingly all the reviews I've heard swing pretty wildly but I'm curious what you thought. I'm not generally into superhero films (though I saw Logan the other day and that was actually pretty fun) but I love Joaquin Phoenix and Hildur Gudnadottir.

Mikey Brown wrote:This guy gets it.

I don't really agree. You really can make a film about a bad guy as long as you make it clear that he is NOT heroic (this is where series like Dexter and The Sopranos are problematic).

The far bigger problem is when the "good guy" heroically kills a lot of "bad guys" but on deeper examination is only "good" because of his nationality or skin colour - eg Rambo, cowboys and indians etc.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:This guy gets it.

I don't really agree. You really can make a film about a bad guy as long as you make it clear that he is NOT heroic (this is where series like Dexter and The Sopranos are problematic).

The far bigger problem is when the "good guy" heroically kills a lot of "bad guys" but on deeper examination is only "good" because of his nationality or skin colour - eg Rambo, cowboys and indians etc.

I'm not sure The Sopranos is a good example for your argument. The show made no bones about the fact that Tony Soprano is, deep down, a piece of shit and product of the world he inhabits. This is made fairly explicit in the Davey Scatino plotline, where Tony recognises Scatino's compulsive gambling addiction, and exploits it knowing he's ruining a man's life for his own personal gain. Ultimately, his reward for rising up to become the king of the mountain against all other pieces of shit, is that he's doomed either way - he has three pathways open to him: spend the rest of his days anxious about someone coming to finish him off (like the man in the Members Only jacket that keeps glancing at him at the diner), with that cloud of fear hanging over him indefinitely; spend the rest of his days under surveillance from law enforcement to either end up in prison like Johnny Sack, or become an informant like Big Pussy; if he's lucky enough that neither eventuates, he has a life like what Junior is suffering through to look forward to.

And yeah, the "what if hero isn't good guy?" shit is also overdone as all hell.

Mikey Brown wrote:

cashead wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
and this is all based on a trailer so far, but it’s quite reasonable to consider it.

And this is precisely my issue - it's largely sight unseen other than a selection of short clips edited together, often out of sequence for a film that is clearly heavily influenced by New York-era Scorsese (specifically Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy). It would be nice if the chin-stroking thinkpieces could wait until after the film has actually been released.

Managed to see this yet?

Haven't bothered. Looked like edgelord bullshit, and if I wanted to watch The King of Comedy, I'd watch The King of Comedy.

cashead wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:This guy gets it.

I don't really agree. You really can make a film about a bad guy as long as you make it clear that he is NOT heroic (this is where series like Dexter and The Sopranos are problematic).

The far bigger problem is when the "good guy" heroically kills a lot of "bad guys" but on deeper examination is only "good" because of his nationality or skin colour - eg Rambo, cowboys and indians etc.

I'm not sure The Sopranos is a good example for your argument. The show made no bones about the fact that Tony Soprano is, deep down, a piece of shit and product of the world he inhabits. This is made fairly explicit in the Davey Scatino plotline, where Tony recognises Scatino's compulsive gambling addiction, and exploits it knowing he's ruining a man's life for his own personal gain. Ultimately, his reward for rising up to become the king of the mountain against all other pieces of shit, is that he's doomed either way - he has three pathways open to him: spend the rest of his days anxious about someone coming to finish him off (like the man in the Members Only jacket that keeps glancing at him at the diner), with that cloud of fear hanging over him indefinitely; spend the rest of his days under surveillance from law enforcement to either end up in prison like Johnny Sack, or become an informant like Big Pussy; if he's lucky enough that neither eventuates, he has a life like what Junior is suffering through to look forward to.

I didn't see the last few series of the Sopranos so you may well be correct on that.

And yeah, the "what if hero isn't good guy?" shit is also overdone as all hell.

Which films or series are you thinking of there?

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

And yeah, the "what if hero isn't good guy?" shit is also overdone as all hell.

Which films or series are you thinking of there?

Where should I start?

Since 2008, we've had Watchmen, The Dark Knight, Dredd, Hellboy II and Brightburn, all of which tackle this idea to varying degrees. Hell, it's the central conceit of Watchmen (Ozymandias prevents a nuclear war between the USA and the USSR, but ends up leaving a long trail of bodies along the way. The Comedian, who worked out what was happening, sees right through this, and knows that Ozymandias is full of shit, and dies for it. While Nightowl, Silk Spectre and Doctor Manhattan end up agreeing to keep quiet about what they've learned. Rorschach refuses, and makes Doctor Manhattan splatter him because what's another corpse among the foundations of the peace that Ozymandias has built? The irony is that we know that as readers, Ozymandias is full of shit, because the Cold War didn't end with a nuclear apocalypse), one of the major themes of The Dark Knight is interrogating the "idea" of The Batman and whether he is actually a force of good, Dredd acknowledges and confronts the fact that the Judges are what maintains a brutal and exploitative status quo, Hellboy II outright questions the value of the BPRD's mission statement, and Brightburn is basically "what if Superman were an evil little bastard?"

If we're going further, Captain America: The Winter Soldier has a frank discussion about the morality of drone warfare, and in this case, the US government and SHIELD itself becomes the villains as they're infiltrated by literal nazis.
Captain Marvel also examines this idea the "good guys" and "bad guys" being delineated by skin colour or, in this case species, as the Kree are initially portrayed as a "race of noble heroes" to quote the eponymous character, while the Skrulls, who are green-skinned shapeshifters, are the nominal villains - only for it to turn out that the Kree are a bunch of fascistic fucks that have gone around throwing their weight around, demanding surrounding planets submit to their rule, or face destruction. The Skrulls refused, and have ended up refugees who were acting out of desperation and hostility because of how they were treated by Kree-aligned planets.

There's also the controversial Identity Crisis storyline from DC, where it turns out that the Justice League had been systematically erasing the memories of the villains that had worked out their identities, and Doctor Light had been given a lobotomy of sorts by Zatanna after he was caught sneaking into the JLA Watchtower, where he encountered and raped the Elongated Man's wife, Sue Dibney. When Batman happens to catch them in the act, Zatanna freezes him in a panic, and she ends up erasing the memories of what he'd witnessed as well.

And then we have The Boys, which is about a team of artificial superhumans who are employed by the US government to keep tabs on superheroes and "correct" their behaviour if they step out of line - by any means necessary.

Puja

cashead wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

And yeah, the "what if hero isn't good guy?" shit is also overdone as all hell.

Which films or series are you thinking of there?

Where should I start?

Since 2008, we've had Watchmen, The Dark Knight, Dredd, Hellboy II and Brightburn, all of which tackle this idea to varying degrees. Hell, it's the central conceit of Watchmen (Ozymandias prevents a nuclear war between the USA and the USSR, but ends up leaving a long trail of bodies along the way. The Comedian, who worked out what was happening, sees right through this, and knows that Ozymandias is full of shit, and dies for it. While Nightowl, Silk Spectre and Doctor Manhattan end up agreeing to keep quiet about what they've learned. Rorschach refuses, and makes Doctor Manhattan splatter him because what's another corpse among the foundations of the peace that Ozymandias has built? The irony is that we know that as readers, Ozymandias is full of shit, because the Cold War didn't end with a nuclear apocalypse), one of the major themes of The Dark Knight is interrogating the "idea" of The Batman and whether he is actually a force of good, Dredd acknowledges and confronts the fact that the Judges are what maintains a brutal and exploitative status quo, Hellboy II outright questions the value of the BPRD's mission statement, and Brightburn is basically "what if Superman were an evil little bastard?"

If we're going further, Captain America: The Winter Soldier has a frank discussion about the morality of drone warfare, and in this case, the US government and SHIELD itself becomes the villains as they're infiltrated by literal nazis.
Captain Marvel also examines this idea the "good guys" and "bad guys" being delineated by skin colour or, in this case species, as the Kree are initially portrayed as a "race of noble heroes" to quote the eponymous character, while the Skrulls, who are green-skinned shapeshifters, are the nominal villains - only for it to turn out that the Kree are a bunch of fascistic fucks that have gone around throwing their weight around, demanding surrounding planets submit to their rule, or face destruction. The Skrulls refused, and have ended up refugees who were acting out of desperation and hostility because of how they were treated by Kree-aligned planets.

There's also the controversial Identity Crisis storyline from DC, where it turns out that the Justice League had been systematically erasing the memories of the villains that had worked out their identities, and Doctor Light had been given a lobotomy of sorts by Zatanna after he was caught sneaking into the JLA Watchtower, where he encountered and raped the Elongated Man's wife, Sue Dibney. When Batman happens to catch them in the act, Zatanna freezes him in a panic, and she ends up erasing the memories of what he'd witnessed as well.

And then we have The Boys, which is about a team of artificial superhumans who are employed by the US government to keep tabs on superheroes and "correct" their behaviour if they step out of line - by any means necessary.

Ah, where would we be without Alan Moore? I agree, it has been done, and occasionally done very well (eg Watchmen). I'm not convinced it has been overdone though, particularly outside of superhero films. Clearly we don't want to keep retreading the same path (The Boys, derivative though it is, has nailed the evil Superman & Justice League thing, so that doesn't need to be done again soon) but I hope we will see more ambiguous (or realistic?) main/title role characters in the future. The mainstream superheroes (Avengers, X-Men, Superman, Batman) are rarely presented as anything other than purely good (regardless of a little moodiness or tragic backstory). They may get a little shouty at times but would they for a second ever be corrupt? I think not.

I will try to see some of those others you've mentioned though...part of the reason for question was to get some tips!

Liked the Joker - fantastic performance from Phoenix (even if he is 10 years too old for the role)

Eventually got around to watching John Wick, hilariously bad.

Numbers wrote:Eventually got around to watching John Wick, hilariously bad.

What's it like being so wrong?