Squad for 6N

[whatisthejava]

I felt the speed turner was thrownibg was much slower, not sure if it wasn’t tactical???? But compared to the rockets against England they were low, mind you even when we got them , they were slapped down.

Ireland should have been home and done except they are as threatening as butter.

Lots of positives about that game but at the same lots of negatives.

For me toony and captain Hogg need to drop a couple of names. Turner and price need to carry the can. Price is the general and that’s 3-4 box kicks charged down due to lack of support.

The Irish really do love a ref who thinks turnovers don’t belong in the game. Poite has been past it for 4-5 years are really needs to be taken out the back and shot for the good of international rugby. The amount of guys that get injured illegally at the ruck when Poite refs is beyond acceptable.

[paddy no 11]

I absolutely want Russell to play his game but the inexcusable errors just continue

Go back 5 years to when he kicked the conversion under the bar to kicking it dead today, he just won't cop on, game after game, when his team needs the simple he goes for nonsense

[Mikey Brown]

I'd imagine the Russell/coach relationship will dissolve again

Russell deserved to be hauled off after kicking it dead, hes so far up his own arse, thinks he can just laugh at the couple of huge mistakes he makes every game

Tbh I think we would be a better team with someone like Hastings in there as a regular.



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Maybe.

But when we have players giving away 6 points at a time in penalties then not sure it matters who is playing 10.

I'm not sure I want to see Price in a Scotland shirt anytime soon. I know that's harsh right now but ffs.

Steele - almost passable winger, crap flanker, not trusted to play scrumhalf yet really
Horne - injured?
Hidalgo-Clyne - looks sharp to me whenever I see him but doesn’t start for his club for whatever various reason

I’m not against seeing what Steele can do against Italy from the start, but it’s a shame we haven’t seen more of Steele from the bench as a 9 at this point.

[paddy no 11]

I wouldn't be harsh on turner hes brilliant around the park, Ireland had 3 2nd rows to your 2 with O'Connell coaching them, we also cleaned out France in the lineout

[Big D]

Tbh I think we would be a better team with someone like Hastings in there as a regular.



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Maybe.

But when we have players giving away 6 points at a time in penalties then not sure it matters who is playing 10.

I'm not sure I want to see Price in a Scotland shirt anytime soon. I know that's harsh right now but ffs.

Steele - almost passable winger, crap flanker, not trusted to play scrumhalf yet really
Horne - injured?
Hidalgo-Clyne - looks sharp to me whenever I see him but doesn’t start for his club for whatever various reason

I’m not against seeing what Steele can do against Italy from the start, but it’s a shame we haven’t seen more of Steele from the bench as a 9 at this point.

Let me.have my over reaction

[Donny osmond]

Agreed that I don't think another 10 would necessarily have made a difference, and I'm not blaming him for the defeat.... I just don't like Russell as a player.

People seem to think he's some maverick genius but I just don't see it; yeah he's got high skill levels but he's not unlocking defences with vision or tactical genius, he just throws so much stuff at it that once in a while he gets lucky and something comes off. He's a selfish cunt who is good enough to hide it. So yeah let him play, it's better than rugby by numbers, but it's not good rugby, it's just showboating.

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[Spiffy]

This is not frivolous or jokey - I would genuinely like to know :

Scottish Kit : Why do the players shorts', complete with blue stripe, have a minute brownish square sewn into the crotch area, roughly between the baw bag and the back door? This is so small that you can barely see it - only when a player is on the ground with his arse in the air. What's the point? Is this a fashion statement? It just looks as though they have had a liquid squirt and seems totally pointless.

[Cameo]

Agreed that I don't think another 10 would necessarily have made a difference, and I'm not blaming him for the defeat.... I just don't like Russell as a player.

People seem to think he's some maverick genius but I just don't see it; yeah he's got high skill levels but he's not unlocking defences with vision or tactical genius, he just throws so much stuff at it that once in a while he gets lucky and something comes off. He's a selfish cunt who is good enough to hide it. So yeah let him play, it's better than rugby by numbers, but it's not good rugby, it's just showboating.

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He unlocks defences more than any other ten we have, and I'd say more than any other ten in world rugby at the moment (mainly for Racing but for Scotland too) though there are some others in contention. I don't really car if that's because he's a tactical mastermind or throws everything at it while maintaining top quality skills. Jones at 13 would help though..

As for "inexcusable unforced errors" (not you I know), as I said earlier, we see plenty from the "solid" 10s but Russell gets crucified far more for them. Show me a ten who makes no "unforced" errors and I'll show you one who's holding his team back or who plays in a team with an absolutely dominant pack.

I get that not everyone will rate him as much as I do but it's dull that every defeat somehow leads to a pile in on him. Today it's laughable - his terrible error made no difference to the result (we scored from the resultant scrum free kick). I suspect his real error is looking relaxed and smiling.

You'd all be having a go at Hastings in no time. I suspect you'd give Weir a free run though as when he makes his unforced errors (which he does more than Russell), he's not trying anything special.

Edit: Also, I'd maybe buy this selfish stuff if he was lazy or went missing in defence but that's not remotely true.

[stevedog1980]

People get stuck into him because he doesn’t look upset when he makes a mistake. If he gets one of those leg things Paul Bettany had in Da Vinci Code and gives it a right good wrench up after kicking that one dead they’d probably let him off

[af73]

Approach for the Italy game is going to be interesting.

You can bet this week will be full of the usual - lesson learned, we trust our processes, give the players a chance to redeem yadda yadda yadda.

Against most opposition this might have some merit but against Italy - much like our lineout - it misses the mark on so many levels.
Italy are bound to to give this everything. They always do thinking we are their best chance of a result. They've been making breaks and all they need against us is one to come off, possibly early to give them all the impetus they need.

Similarly if we are overly cautious & treat Italy with 'respect' (in rugby terms this is the 'earning the right, go through phases' thing rather than an arrogant dismissal of opposition) we will only encourage them that they are in a game. The All Blacks talk about respect and no doubt moderate their approach against SA etc. Against us or Italy they go out to wipe the flour with you from minute one....then give you all the respect you like after the game.

I think we need to bring back some of the full throated attack for a bit. The containing defensive solidity is not priority #1 against Italy but points are to take the game away from them. So Johnson and Jones. Harris can defend - so we are told - but the difference Jones made to the attack just cannot be ignored any longer. VDM isn't in the game & the lack of creativity or threat in midfield isn't helping him or Hogg and Russell. Too easy for oppo defensive to close down.

Price looks to me to have been institutionalised through time in the squad. 3 or 4 years ago his speed & enthusiasm (errors and all) was a point of difference to Laidlaw. Now seems to have slowed down to Laidlaw 2.0 and the errors are still there but now amplified.

Pity Horne is injured but what's wrong with Dobie on the bench?
Wilson seems to have learned lately at Glasgow that 20 year olds can be trusted if they are good players. Good enough = old enough.
No Hastings, Russel or Weir almost brings Chamberlain or Thomson in out of necessity as back up to VdW. If Toonie goes for Lang then the lack of ambition/job preservation will be for all to see.

[Donny osmond]

Agreed that I don't think another 10 would necessarily have made a difference, and I'm not blaming him for the defeat.... I just don't like Russell as a player.

People seem to think he's some maverick genius but I just don't see it; yeah he's got high skill levels but he's not unlocking defences with vision or tactical genius, he just throws so much stuff at it that once in a while he gets lucky and something comes off. He's a selfish cunt who is good enough to hide it. So yeah let him play, it's better than rugby by numbers, but it's not good rugby, it's just showboating.

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He unlocks defences more than any other ten we have, and I'd say more than any other ten in world rugby at the moment (mainly for Racing but for Scotland too) though there are some others in contention. I don't really car if that's because he's a tactical mastermind or throws everything at it while maintaining top quality skills. Jones at 13 would help though..

As for "inexcusable unforced errors" (not you I know), as I said earlier, we see plenty from the "solid" 10s but Russell gets crucified far more for them. Show me a ten who makes no "unforced" errors and I'll show you one who's holding his team back or who plays in a team with an absolutely dominant pack.

I get that not everyone will rate him as much as I do but it's dull that every defeat somehow leads to a pile in on him. Today it's laughable - his terrible error made no difference to the result (we scored from the resultant scrum free kick). I suspect his real error is looking relaxed and smiling.

You'd all be having a go at Hastings in no time. I suspect you'd give Weir a free run though as when he makes his unforced errors (which he does more than Russell), he's not trying anything special.

Edit: Also, I'd maybe buy this selfish stuff if he was lazy or went missing in defence but that's not remotely true.

We seemed to do better after he went off yesterday than when he was on. He's not the Messiah...

He can unlock defences, bit he can also, often, give away possession and put his own team under pressure.

He's a good tackler that's true, but someone who gives away as much possession as he does is kinda duty bound to be a decent tackler.

I've often expressed my frustration at the whole team, collectively and individually, for their stupid mistakes.

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[Cameo]

He can unlock defences, bit he can also, often, give away possession and put his own team under pressure.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree and you're entitled not to rate him as much as I do obviously. However, just on the point above, are you thinking of anything particular from today?

There was the bad penalty and I remember one drop counter attacking (after showing some surprising pace) but not in a situation where I think anyone would say he was trying anything stupid. I just don't remember it being an error strewn game from him (or one where he went for much particularly extravagant).

[stevedog1980]

For me the 2 biggest problems were:

1. Our lineout, failure to secure our own ball killed us. If we’d been routinely maintaining possession I don’t think there’s any way Russell kicks that ball dead. To me that was an effort to get confidence back into Turner, who by that point was really struggling. For whatever reason, yesterday was an off day for Turner. Up until then he’s been going great guns at lineout time and around the park.

2. Poite. The guy is awful. He obviously knows the breakdown laws as on occasion he does ping for them but it’s his inconsistent approach to application that drives me nuts. If it’s a penalty one time, it’s a penalty every time. Allowing players to seal off the ball, to blatantly fly off their feet and then 1 in 10 times penalising it is ridiculous. The winning penalty, Price is stupid there’s no doubt about that but how is Baird playing the ball? Earlier in the game I heard him say “no, he wasn’t trying to lift it” which I assume was a reference to someone not actually playing the ball at ruck time. Given that’s what you’ve called out as being penalty criteria, how can you give a penalty at the end? Baird has wrapped round Prices waist and is lifting him fully off the ground FFS. I’m not saying Baird couldn’t have won a penalty if he’d engaged the ball, but that’s not what he did, not even close.

I’ve put these in order of priority, our lineout works and that’s a different game. I don’t think Poite cost us the game but equally, without that decision Ireland wouldn’t have won it

[Donny osmond]

He can unlock defences, bit he can also, often, give away possession and put his own team under pressure.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree and you're entitled not to rate him as much as I do obviously. However, just on the point above, are you thinking of anything particular from today?

There was the bad penalty and I remember one drop counter attacking (after showing some surprising pace) but not in a situation where I think anyone would say he was trying anything stupid. I just don't remember it being an error strewn game from him (or one where he went for much particularly extravagant).

I can barely remember what day it is mate.

Look, I can see and appreciate his qualities, it's just that I don't think we are going to address our short comings as a team with him at FH, that's all.

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[Mikey Brown]

There were times it didn’t help today. But it’s hard to know what he would have done if we’d kept a bit more of our own ball to attack with. We made errors absolutely everywhere yesterday, the lineout was just the most consistent one and could well have cost the game on its own.

[Mikey Brown]

[switchskier]

For me the 2 biggest problems were:

1. Our lineout, failure to secure our own ball killed us. If we’d been routinely maintaining possession I don’t think there’s any way Russell kicks that ball dead. To me that was an effort to get confidence back into Turner, who by that point was really struggling. For whatever reason, yesterday was an off day for Turner. Up until then he’s been going great guns at lineout time and around the park.

2. Poite. The guy is awful. He obviously knows the breakdown laws as on occasion he does ping for them but it’s his inconsistent approach to application that drives me nuts. If it’s a penalty one time, it’s a penalty every time. Allowing players to seal off the ball, to blatantly fly off their feet and then 1 in 10 times penalising it is ridiculous. The winning penalty, Price is stupid there’s no doubt about that but how is Baird playing the ball? Earlier in the game I heard him say “no, he wasn’t trying to lift it” which I assume was a reference to someone not actually playing the ball at ruck time. Given that’s what you’ve called out as being penalty criteria, how can you give a penalty at the end? Baird has wrapped round Prices waist and is lifting him fully off the ground FFS. I’m not saying Baird couldn’t have won a penalty if he’d engaged the ball, but that’s not what he did, not even close.

I’ve put these in order of priority, our lineout works and that’s a different game. I don’t think Poite cost us the game but equally, without that decision Ireland wouldn’t have won it

I need to watch it again but I find it baffling that we can compete with every team in the world at the breakdown except the Irish. It's not as if the Irish go out and dominate other teams but every time yesterday there seemed to be at least a meter between our players attempting to get at the ball and where it was being placed back for the scrum half.

Of course the flip side of that was that the Irish rarely had enough players in the backline to stretch us, but they didn't need to. They just waited for us to give away penalties or hoisted the ball high in the air.

Watson was terrific yesterday and neither Ritchie nor Faegerson was particularly bad. But we need a different type of player for Ireland I think. A Jason White type that can sit players down and give our aggressive players a chance to get after the ball.

[switchskier]

I'd imagine the Russell/coach relationship will dissolve again

Russell deserved to be hauled off after kicking it dead, hes so far up his own arse, thinks he can just laugh at the couple of huge mistakes he makes every game

Tbh I think we would be a better team with someone like Hastings in there as a regular.



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Maybe.

But when we have players giving away 6 points at a time in penalties then not sure it matters who is playing 10.

I'm not sure I want to see Price in a Scotland shirt anytime soon. I know that's harsh right now but ffs.

Price's box kicking was poor yesterday. We never really threatened to compete and it was often too far infield, giving the Irish options. I was surprised he stayed on, and then that he wasn't the one trying to play flanker (fair play to Steele, but wouldn't it have made more sense for Jones or Duhan to have been doing some of that work?)

[Mikey Brown]

Tbh I think we would be a better team with someone like Hastings in there as a regular.



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Maybe.

But when we have players giving away 6 points at a time in penalties then not sure it matters who is playing 10.

I'm not sure I want to see Price in a Scotland shirt anytime soon. I know that's harsh right now but ffs.

Price's box kicking was poor yesterday. We never really threatened to compete and it was often too far infield, giving the Irish options. I was surprised he stayed on, and then that he wasn't the one trying to play flanker (fair play to Steele, but wouldn't it have made more sense for Jones or Duhan to have been doing some of that work?)

Yeah that didn't seem much more worthwhile than going a man down to be honest, and I don't mean that as a dig at Steele. Even left and right scrum-halves would been preferable.

[stevedog1980]

I need to watch it again but I find it baffling that we can compete with every team in the world at the breakdown except the Irish. It's not as if the Irish go out and dominate other teams but every time yesterday there seemed to be at least a meter between our players attempting to get at the ball and where it was being placed back for the scrum half.

Of course the flip side of that was that the Irish rarely had enough players in the backline to stretch us, but they didn't need to. They just waited for us to give away penalties or hoisted the ball high in the air.

Watson was terrific yesterday and neither Ritchie nor Faegerson was particularly bad. But we need a different type of player for Ireland I think. A Jason White type that can sit players down and give our aggressive players a chance to get after the ball.

Ireland have for a long time been the team I hate the most at the breakdown. Routinely on their own ball they go with a latch that immediately disrupts the defensive attempts for the ball. Often this will be in the form of Cian Healy or Furlong overrunning the ruck and meaning that a player joining the ruck from the defensive side doesn't have a straight entry. More often than not, rather than pinging the attacking players for lazy runs that blocked the competition, the referee will penalise the defensive team for entry from the side. This is a really infuriating habit for me now of the referee penalising the most obvious offence rather than the first offence. They also use the latch and any other supporting players to tie players in at the breakdown for the not rolling away penalties. I know that all teams are doing this but Ireland use it with a mixed bag of sealing off and like I say, the "lazy" obstructions to stop a defending team from making a dent in the ruck. Ireland are guilty of committing lots of littler offences at the breakdown in the hope that the referee picks up on the more obvious penalties.

Poite is spectacularly inconsistent, you could have an identical ruck run 10 times and he'd have a different interpretation each time. He's the same with every scrum. I don't believe he deliberately favours either team, you just have to hope you're on the lucky side of the officiating on any given day.

I agree with you about a destructive tackler but I've always been a huge fan of Jason White. I know we have said it a lot on here but Bradbury really is the current generations Rob Dewey. All the attributes to be a great test player but just can't put it together consistently

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah it’s a shame. Between Bradbury, Graham, Crosbie I hoped that aggressive, physical edge can be found but Bradbury has been inconsistent, Graham not up to this level and Crosbie doesn’t seem to be in the picture for Scotland yet.

GT said the other day that Turner is the hardest tackler in the side. He really does some fantastic stuff in the loose, so I hope yesterday isn’t too much of a derailment for him.

[stevedog1980]

Yeah it’s a shame. Between Bradbury, Graham, Crosbie I hoped that aggressive, physical edge can be found but Bradbury has been inconsistent, Graham not up to this level and Crosbie doesn’t seem to be in the picture for Scotland yet.

GT said the other day that Turner is the hardest tackler in the side. He really does some fantastic stuff in the loose, so I hope yesterday isn’t too much of a derailment for him.

Agree on all that. Turner put in one huge hit on Stander, definitely a tough tackler. Suffers from being in the tight 5 so there's a little less open field tackling than you'll see from a back row

[switchskier]

Hoyland and Miller called up to the training squad. Assume that they're just camp bodies at this stage, but interesting to see Miller get the nod ahead of some more established names.

[Cameo]

Miller was very good on the weekend.

Is Russell out confirmed?

Btw - couldn't agree more on Poite. When I see him reffing I instantly think we are in trouble. He sees the same situation twice and comes up with completely different situations. First ten mins on Sunday I thought it was going to be a game you couldn't buy a turnover, the suddenly he flipped for a while. Did the same thing with scrums, first he's desparate for people to just get on with the game irrespective of whether they've taken it down, next minute he's penalising in a flash.

[Chunks Baws]

Miller was very good on the weekend.

Is Russell out confirmed?

Btw - couldn't agree more on Poite. When I see him reffing I instantly think we are in trouble. He sees the same situation twice and comes up with completely different situations. First ten mins on Sunday I thought it was going to be a game you couldn't buy a turnover, the suddenly he flipped for a while. Did the same thing with scrums, first he's desparate for people to just get on with the game irrespective of whether they've taken it down, next minute he's penalising in a flash.

Toony is preparing to be without Russell this weekend, according to the Herald.

Aye, the penalty against JR was particularly shite, and costly.