Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Oakboy]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

I'd forgotten him - which rather makes your point. I think he was unlucky not to get a chance at FB but Steward and Furbank are clearly ahead of him. I'd expect Hodge to be as well once he is fit again for Exeter.

[Spiffy]

Interesting that there's no Joe Cokanasiga in the squad. Glad about it though - he has been given so many chances on the basis of his physical frame and early promise and hasn't repaid the faith.

Puja

Yes. Joe is big, powerful and fast, but even at club level, where he is scoring tries, he makes a few howlers each game in positioning, decision making, handling, passing etc. He just seems to lack rugby smarts. His Bath team mate Muir, looks a better all-round wing and must have been pushing Roebuck for a squad slot.

[Puja]

Interesting that there's no Joe Cokanasiga in the squad. Glad about it though - he has been given so many chances on the basis of his physical frame and early promise and hasn't repaid the faith.

Puja

I know what you mean but I'm not sure he really has - he's so clearly a confidence player and he hasn't had a decent run of games for England, due to rotation, injury etc. When he's fit and high on confidence, he's pretty formidable. Against Wales in the WC warm-up he was very poor, but you could see he was trying too hard, running at multiple defenders etc - I think he's better than that.

Having said that, the England backline obviously won't play like Bath's so perhaps it's a mute point, he wouldn't get the ball anyway.

12 caps I make it, 9 starts.....12 tries. 2 knee injuries and the business with his dad. I'm not sure he's been given so many genuine chances (4 were RWC warm up games in 2019, didn't play in RWC and was carrying a knee injury into that), and pretty intermittent in any case, and none since autumn 2022.

RWC camp and warmup match last year?

The issue for me is that he keeps getting picked for squads when he's not performing well for Bath (admittedly hard to do in some of the Bath teams over the last few years) with the idea that he'll come good if picked.

Puja

[Banquo]

I know what you mean but I'm not sure he really has - he's so clearly a confidence player and he hasn't had a decent run of games for England, due to rotation, injury etc. When he's fit and high on confidence, he's pretty formidable. Against Wales in the WC warm-up he was very poor, but you could see he was trying too hard, running at multiple defenders etc - I think he's better than that.

Having said that, the England backline obviously won't play like Bath's so perhaps it's a mute point, he wouldn't get the ball anyway.

12 caps I make it, 9 starts.....12 tries. 2 knee injuries and the business with his dad. I'm not sure he's been given so many genuine chances (4 were RWC warm up games in 2019, didn't play in RWC and was carrying a knee injury into that), and pretty intermittent in any case, and none since autumn 2022.

RWC camp and warmup match last year?

My bad- outdated info poor research!

[Stom]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

lol.

Nah, good riddance. Not a good enough 1v1 defender, nor got the top end pace needed.

[Banquo]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

lol.

Nah, good riddance. Not a good enough 1v1 defender, nor got the top end pace needed.

Personally I think he should have stuck at 10.

[Mikey Brown]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

lol.

Nah, good riddance. Not a good enough 1v1 defender, nor got the top end pace needed.

Good riddance seems a bit harsh. I thought he did very well out on the wing in the sense he just isn’t an international winger, but is skilful and hard-working. It’s Borthwick (or whoever picked him) that I hold that selection against.

I’d like to see him give 10 another crack too.

[Banquo]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

lol.

Nah, good riddance. Not a good enough 1v1 defender, nor got the top end pace needed.

he did very well out on the wing in the sense he just isn’t an international winger,

I wouldn't give him that, but acknowledge out of position.

[Stom]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

lol.

Nah, good riddance. Not a good enough 1v1 defender, nor got the top end pace needed.

Good riddance seems a bit harsh. I thought he did very well out on the wing in the sense he just isn’t an international winger, but is skilful and hard-working. It’s Borthwick (or whoever picked him) that I hold that selection against.

I’d like to see him give 10 another crack too.

Maybe harsh, but he's just another example of a player who is obviously not up for it, but is so utterly bland so as to be unobtrusive, getting into the England team.

[Mellsblue]

Malins on the wing seemed utterly mad to me. It’ll be interesting to see how he looks after a full season at 15. And not just because he can learn off RICH LANE!!! blah blah blah

[Spiffy]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

lol.

Nah, good riddance. Not a good enough 1v1 defender, nor got the top end pace needed.

I think that Malins' pace is deceptive, perhaps because of his long striding, loping running style. Here is a link claiming that he was the fifth fastest player in the 2022 6N (in m/sec) after D. Graham, Penaud, Rees-Zamitt and Hogg.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/fastest-players- ... -revealed/

I can't believe that R-Z is not top of that list. I was surprised a few weeks ago to see Malins running down a fast opponent from behind in a club game, but I've for gotten who it was. Apart from top end speed, he's always had good acceleration.

[Which Tyler]

From COML, Re Barbeary:

Saw him last night after the hearing. He got off very lightly - according to him!! The second card was downgraded to yellow. The first got him 4 match ban reduced to 2 as he now has to attend Tackle School. So misses Toulouse and Bris matches.

That's a touch generous IMO*, and not remotely surprising with the post-RWC cop-out.
Good news for him though, and may yet see him added into the Endland squad.


* I expected 6, halved, and an extra week off for tackle school, so still 2, and 2 weeks for the 2nd card, but to run concurrently - so the same in real terms, but a harsher wrist slap

[Mikey Brown]

BTW, no hand wringing over Malins I see?

lol.

Nah, good riddance. Not a good enough 1v1 defender, nor got the top end pace needed.

I think that Malins' pace is deceptive, perhaps because of his long striding, loping running style. Here is a link claiming that he was the fifth fastest player in the 2022 6N (in m/sec) after D. Graham, Penaud, Rees-Zamitt and Hogg.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/fastest-players- ... -revealed/

I can't believe that R-Z is not top of that list. I was surprised a few weeks ago to see Malins running down a fast opponent from behind in a club game, but I've for gotten who it was. Apart from top end speed, he's always had good acceleration.

That does seem surprising, particularly as Hogg's legs went a good while back.

I should have clarified when I said he did well on the wing, I think in the same way I'd hope Smith or Cipriani would do okay out there without ever really looking at home. He had played wing basically all season for Saracens though so that's not much of an excuse. I feel like he may be another Alex Goode.

[Mikey Brown]

Strange one for Barbeary to now be available for England but not in the squad. Though maybe that's more fair somehow.

Unsurprising in terms of the bans really. Cop-out is definitely the word. They gave it a real go in the season leading up to the world cup and then completely abandoned everything that had been worked for. We might as well just say first half infringements are yellows and second half infringements are red, for all the sense anyone can make of how these incidents are reffed.

It says above the second yellow was down-graded, but wasn't it already a (second) yellow on field?

Also is there anything preventing him training with England in the meantime if he's not going to play for Bath anyway?

[Puja]

From COML, Re Barbeary:

Saw him last night after the hearing. He got off very lightly - according to him!! The second card was downgraded to yellow. The first got him 4 match ban reduced to 2 as he now has to attend Tackle School. So misses Toulouse and Bris matches.

That's a touch generous IMO*, and not remotely surprising with the post-RWC cop-out.
Good news for him though, and may yet see him added into the Endland squad.


* I expected 6, halved, and an extra week off for tackle school, so still 2, and 2 weeks for the 2nd card, but to run concurrently - so the same in real terms, but a harsher wrist slap

Assuming he didn't get the full 50% deduction because he's had previous disciplinary? Or has his age group one expired and he just didn't eat biscuits well enough?

Puja

[p/d]

First offence was a cracking tackle. Result of a bloody good kick chase by Bath.

[Which Tyler]

It says above the second yellow was down-graded, but wasn't it already a (second) yellow on field?

Yeah, it was a second yellow that was immediately upgraded to red; so it counts as being a red card.

First offence was a cracking tackle. Result of a bloody good kick chase by Bath.

It was, just a touch too high.
I'm not sure if he hadn't realised it was the SH catching, so expected a taller receiver, or if there was a marginal dip on landing. Both of those are his responsibility to know though, and meant he ended up making contact an inch or two too high (though I'd have preferred him to be looking a foot or so lower - seems a perfect opportunity to hit someone in the solar plexus and fold them in half, even if they get their hands free, there's a good chance they'll spill the ball)

[twitchy]

Give him some leeway, farrell never stopped high tackling and is the 'greatest england captain ever™'.

[Mikey Brown]

It says above the second yellow was down-graded, but wasn't it already a (second) yellow on field?

Yeah, it was a second yellow that was immediately upgraded to red; so it counts as being a red card.

I guess I'm not understanding the distinction. I don't see how it can be down-graded if it was only a red due to the prior yellow anyway.

If you dragged down 2 mauls at the try line I wouldn't have thought that gets recorded as a red card.

[Mellsblue]

Give him some leeway, farrell never stopped high tackling and is the 'greatest england captain ever™'.

[Puja]

First offence was a cracking tackle. Result of a bloody good kick chase by Bath.

It was, just a touch too high.
I'm not sure if he hadn't realised it was the SH catching, so expected a taller receiver, or if there was a marginal dip on landing. Both of those are his responsibility to know though, and meant he ended up making contact an inch or two too high (though I'd have preferred him to be looking a foot or so lower - seems a perfect opportunity to hit someone in the solar plexus and fold them in half, even if they get their hands free, there's a good chance they'll spill the ball)

This is what the protocols ought to be inculcating into coaches and thus into players. That situation should've been a full Lawes special, rather than there being any chance of head contact.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. I still view the ultimate hit as the where you can get them in the midrift and drive upwards. It doesn't matter if their arms are free for an off-load or not, nobody is getting the ball away if you hit them like that with a decent amount of force. It also leaves basically no risk of getting pinged. Basically all high tackles seem to be laziness or poor technique.

[FKAS]

Yep. I still view the ultimate hit as the where you can get them in the midrift and drive upwards. It doesn't matter if their arms are free for an off-load or not, nobody is getting the ball away if you hit them like that with a decent amount of force. It also leaves basically no risk of getting pinged. Basically all high tackles seem to be laziness or poor technique.

Like.

As the tackler in that position you've got options as well.

[Banquo]

Yep. I still view the ultimate hit as the where you can get them in the midrift and drive upwards. It doesn't matter if their arms are free for an off-load or not, nobody is getting the ball away if you hit them like that with a decent amount of force. It also leaves basically no risk of getting pinged. Basically all high tackles seem to be laziness or poor technique.

Like.

As the tackler in that position you've got options as well.

kiwis are/were taught to run around crouching in attack (when not carrying) and defence. In attack its called the triple threat position from vague memory, but also good practice in defence.

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting from this little video, Borthwick mentions CCS having previously impressed with his physicality when England trained with Quins, Richard Hill being the massive Roots advocate and the complete absence of a mention for Roebuck.