RugbyRebels

belgarion wrote:It really boils my p the way all those anti Brexit Scots
keeping going on about Scotland staying in the EU. Scotland
is not and has never been in the EU. All treaties, agreements etc
were signed by The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland Scotland does not appear in any of them as it does not
exist as an independent entity.

What is your point?


People living in Scotland in EU were recognised as citizens of a EU Country. People living in Scotland will probably be very similar to people living in Independent Scotland. EU has never forced citizens to leave.

Scotland is recognised as a Nation withing the UK by the EU.

Adder wrote:

belgarion wrote:It really boils my p the way all those anti Brexit Scots
keeping going on about Scotland staying in the EU. Scotland
is not and has never been in the EU. All treaties, agreements etc
were signed by The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland Scotland does not appear in any of them as it does not
exist as an independent entity.

What is your point?


People living in Scotland in EU were recognised as citizens of a EU Country. People living in Scotland will probably be very similar to people living in Independent Scotland. EU has never forced citizens to leave.

Scotland is recognised as a Nation withing the UK by the EU.

Is it recognised as a signatory to any treaties? Is it recognised as the Sovereign
power of the UK? Is it recognised as an independent nation within the EU? Because
if the answer to any of those questions is no then Scotland cannot stay in the EU
as it isn't in it to begin with.

belgarion wrote:

Adder wrote:

belgarion wrote:It really boils my p the way all those anti Brexit Scots
keeping going on about Scotland staying in the EU. Scotland
is not and has never been in the EU. All treaties, agreements etc
were signed by The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland Scotland does not appear in any of them as it does not
exist as an independent entity.

What is your point?


People living in Scotland in EU were recognised as citizens of a EU Country. People living in Scotland will probably be very similar to people living in Independent Scotland. EU has never forced citizens to leave.

Scotland is recognised as a Nation withing the UK by the EU.

Is it recognised as a signatory to any treaties? Is it recognised as the Sovereign
power of the UK? Is it recognised as an independent nation within the EU? Because
if the answer to any of those questions is no then Scotland cannot stay in the EU
as it isn't in it to begin with.

Lol. You don't make the rules as you go along. Scotland is recognised as an entity by the EU and that is what matters.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Stones of granite wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Stones of granite wrote: EFTA membership would suit me fine. The Norway model ticks most of the boxes without most of the downsides. That applies whether we're talking about an independent Scotland or the UK.

What downsides do you think you avoid by the Norway model? It seems to me you get all thedownsides with no upside.

If my understanding is correct (and it may not be), the downsides that could be avoided by an independent Scotland joining EFTA (EEA) rather than full EU membership are:
1. We would retain the ability to make trade agreements with non-EU countries. This would prevent trading issues with a fully brexited rUK.
2. We would not be forced into joining the Euro. Although, on reflection, the Euro does seem to work for the vast majority of member countries.
3. Membership cost would probably be significantly lower
4. We would not be bound by the Common Fisheries Policy, which would have the double advantage of placating the Fishing lobby while simultaneously showing the Spanish the stink-finger.

How do you think the proceeds of the fishing grounds and oil fields will be split up following Scottish Independence? Likely be a bun fight if you ask me.

bruce wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: What downsides do you think you avoid by the Norway model? It seems to me you get all thedownsides with no upside.

If my understanding is correct (and it may not be), the downsides that could be avoided by an independent Scotland joining EFTA (EEA) rather than full EU membership are:
1. We would retain the ability to make trade agreements with non-EU countries. This would prevent trading issues with a fully brexited rUK.
2. We would not be forced into joining the Euro. Although, on reflection, the Euro does seem to work for the vast majority of member countries.
3. Membership cost would probably be significantly lower
4. We would not be bound by the Common Fisheries Policy, which would have the double advantage of placating the Fishing lobby while simultaneously showing the Spanish the stink-finger.

How do you think the proceeds of the fishing grounds and oil fields will be split up following Scottish Independence? Likely be a bun fight if you ask me.

The boundaries are already settled. The Scottish Adjacent Boundary Waters Order was enacted as a Statutory Instrument by the UK Government at the same time as the Scotland Act which enabled devolution.

Adder wrote:

belgarion wrote:

Adder wrote: What is your point?


People living in Scotland in EU were recognised as citizens of a EU Country. People living in Scotland will probably be very similar to people living in Independent Scotland. EU has never forced citizens to leave.

Scotland is recognised as a Nation withing the UK by the EU.

Is it recognised as a signatory to any treaties? Is it recognised as the Sovereign
power of the UK? Is it recognised as an independent nation within the EU? Because
if the answer to any of those questions is no then Scotland cannot stay in the EU
as it isn't in it to begin with.

Lol. You don't make the rules as you go along. Scotland is recognised as an entity by the EU and that is what matters.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

So if it is recognised as an entity why do people in the EU keep saying that if
Scotland becomes independent it would have to apply for membership? If it is
a recognised entity within the EU when it becomes independent it shouldn't
have to.

belgarion wrote:

Adder wrote:

belgarion wrote:
Is it recognised as a signatory to any treaties? Is it recognised as the Sovereign
power of the UK? Is it recognised as an independent nation within the EU? Because
if the answer to any of those questions is no then Scotland cannot stay in the EU
as it isn't in it to begin with.

Lol. You don't make the rules as you go along. Scotland is recognised as an entity by the EU and that is what matters.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

So if it is recognised as an entity why do people in the EU keep saying that if
Scotland becomes independent it would have to apply for membership? If it is
a recognised entity within the EU when it becomes independent it shouldn't
have to.

The EU has multiple voices. Truth is , it's the first time they come against this situation.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Wow not too far behind the times am I?

bruce wrote:Wow not too far behind the times am I?

To be fair, the bastards did sneak it in under the radar, thieving 6,000 sq miles of previously Scottish waters and several "not very important" oil fields, without so much as a debate in Parliament....

Stones of granite wrote:

bruce wrote:Wow not too far behind the times am I?

To be fair, the bastards did sneak it in under the radar, thieving 6,000 sq miles of previously Scottish waters and several "not very important" oil fields, without so much as a debate in Parliament....

At least you won't have to worry about the decommissioning of those "older, not very important " oil fields.

belgarion wrote:It really boils my p the way all those anti Brexit Scots
keeping going on about Scotland staying in the EU. Scotland
is not and has never been in the EU. All treaties, agreements etc
were signed by The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland Scotland does not appear in any of them as it does not
exist as an independent entity.

Is this iambic pentameter? If so, you are Shakespeare and I claim my pound of flesh.

Donny osmond wrote:Didnt see it but seemingly Elsie has just been on sky news stating that iScot would apply for EU membership, so that seems to put that one to bed. One of the big questions now is whether the million Scots who voted to leave the EU will support independence or not.

You could also look at it the other way too, how many people who voted to remain part of the UK would still want vote that way now he goal posts have been substantially moved.

Embra would be a good test of that. Majority of my city voted to remain in both... 74% for the EU.

Besides, surely this doesn't matter, the Tory prime minster, with her mandate of a couple of hundred Torys has told us we can't.

Stones of granite wrote:

bruce wrote:

Stones of granite wrote:
If my understanding is correct (and it may not be), the downsides that could be avoided by an independent Scotland joining EFTA (EEA) rather than full EU membership are:
1. We would retain the ability to make trade agreements with non-EU countries. This would prevent trading issues with a fully brexited rUK.
2. We would not be forced into joining the Euro. Although, on reflection, the Euro does seem to work for the vast majority of member countries.
3. Membership cost would probably be significantly lower
4. We would not be bound by the Common Fisheries Policy, which would have the double advantage of placating the Fishing lobby while simultaneously showing the Spanish the stink-finger.

How do you think the proceeds of the fishing grounds and oil fields will be split up following Scottish Independence? Likely be a bun fight if you ask me.

The boundaries are already settled. The Scottish Adjacent Boundary Waters Order was enacted as a Statutory Instrument by the UK Government at the same time as the Scotland Act which enabled devolution.

I think the bigger problem would be paying for a navy to stop the Spaniards and everyone else just sailing in to take what they will

Why not resurrect and build on the Auld Alliance? Instead of declaring independence and then seeking entry into the EU, Scotland should become part of France and thus remain in the EU regardless of what the rump UK does.

Although the Frogs generally like to keep a tight rein on regions and overseas departments, I reckon that Scotland could negotiate almost complete autonomy under the nominal suzerainty of the French President in return for the sheer Lolz at the Rosbifs' expense France would get.

As a bonus, Glasgow and Edinburgh could join the Top 14.

Lizard wrote:Why not resurrect and build on the Auld Alliance? Instead of declaring independence and then seeking entry into the EU, Scotland should become part of France and thus remain in the EU regardless of what the rump UK does.

Although the Frogs generally like to keep a tight rein on regions and overseas departments, I reckon that Scotland could negotiate almost complete autonomy under the nominal suzerainty of the French President in return for the sheer Lolz at the Rosbifs' expense France would get.

As a bonus, Glasgow and Edinburgh could join the Top 14.

1... 2... 3...


But seriously, Top 14 doesnt look to be what it use to.

Not even going to mention how centralised France is

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Edinburgh in Exile wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Didnt see it but seemingly Elsie has just been on sky news stating that iScot would apply for EU membership, so that seems to put that one to bed. One of the big questions now is whether the million Scots who voted to leave the EU will support independence or not.

You could also look at it the other way too, how many people who voted to remain part of the UK would still want vote that way now he goal posts have been substantially moved.

Embra would be a good test of that. Majority of my city voted to remain in both... 74% for the EU.

Besides, surely this doesn't matter, the Tory prime minster, with her mandate of a couple of hundred Torys has told us we can't.

Saw some research that suggested the number if people switching sides was about equal. I.e. just as many pro-indy voters would now vote to stay in the uk in order to leave eu as anti-indy voters would now vote to leave the uk to stay in the eu. I'll see if I can look it up later.

Speaking of later, and much as I hate to defend Theresa May, she hasn't said cant at all.

Piece of piss, first hit on a google search...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ancing-act

Tl;dr version

"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.

So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.

The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."

Donny osmond wrote:Tl;dr version

"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.

So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.

The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."

Fair enough I guess. Can't understand that to be honest, then again, it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that I no longer agree with vast swaths of the voting public on this planet.

My dig at Theresa May stands.

RIP

Martin McGuinness, the former Irish Republican Army commander who laid down his arms and turned peacemaker to help end Northern Ireland's 30-year conflict, died on Tuesday after a decade as deputy first minister of the British province.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-brita ... SKBN16S0L0

rowan wrote:RIP

Martin McGuinness, the former Irish Republican Army commander who laid down his arms and turned peacemaker to help end Northern Ireland's 30-year conflict, died on Tuesday after a decade as deputy first minister of the British province.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-brita ... SKBN16S0L0

I can't see that affecting the Brexit timetable.

Edinburgh in Exile wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Tl;dr version

"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.

So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.

The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."

Fair enough I guess. Can't understand that to be honest, then again, it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that I no longer agree with vast swaths of the voting public on this planet.

My dig at Theresa May stands.

Its the Jim Sillars crowd innit?

Donny osmond wrote:Tl;dr version

"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.

So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.

The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."

I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Tl;dr version

"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.

So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.

The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."

I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.

Some lessons, it seems, are all too easily forgotten.

Stones of granite wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:Tl;dr version

"After this week’s supreme court ruling, Sturgeon said: “Is Scotland content for our future to be dictated by an increasingly rightwing Westminster government with just one MP here, or is it better that we take our future into our own hands?” However, so far, this argument has delivered only modest returns, with 12% of no/remain voters switching their vote towards independence.

So why has this small but notable shift not moved the headline numbers? The movement among this group has been offset by a much larger swing among those who voted yes to independence in 2014 but then voted to leave the EU last year. Despite only making up 14% of Scottish voters, 43% of these leave/yes voters have since abandoned their pro-independence position, with 28% now saying they would vote to stay in the union.

The other two groups, remain/yes and leave/no, together make up approximately 37% of Scottish voters and have remained reasonably consistent in their positions on independence in the aftermath of the Brexit vote."

I'd have thought that if we learned one thing last year it was to not take polling too seriously.

Some lessons, it seems, are all too easily forgotten.

Depends which polls you read. Lynton Crosby's and Vote Leave's were pretty accurate.