ALunpg wrote:Thought I would share this cut from the BBC website..
Discipline will 'kill' Lions
Lions assistant coach Graham Rowntree warned players are at risk of losing their places in the side because of ill discipline.
The Lions conceded 13 penalties in Wellington - 10 of which were kickable - and it was only Beauden Barrett's profligacy from the tee that kept the tourists alive.
"We have got to sort it out because it is going to kill us," Rowntree added.
"We have to sit them down and show them every day. We can't be doing this. We have to keep reiterating that point to the players.
"We can't lose a Test series on the back of some stupid penalties. That would be unacceptable. How do you live with that for the rest of your life?"
Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
Banquo wrote:Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
Someone read the Times this morning
Not sure NZ could moan about that in could conscience. They are the masters of blocking/obstructing without getting pinged for blocking/obstructing.
Banquo wrote:Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
Someone read the Times this morning
Not sure NZ could moan about that in could conscience. They are the masters of blocking/obstructing without getting pinged for blocking/obstructing.
actually was watching a bit of the highlights last evening.
And yes, part and parcel of the game these days, like conceding penalties on the 22, rather than closer in (obviating yellow cards or tries)
Stom wrote:So glad I was wrong about the selection. But it was the 2 changes to the pack that made all the difference. Both Warburton and Itoje were excellent, and key to the win. I could even go so far as to give Warburton the MoM award. Who did it go to officially?
I also thought that, after his Mako incident, Barrett was very tentative getting back up after assisting the tackler on George. And that contributed to Murray's try. So perhaps it was job well done for Mako there.
Was again impressed with Watson, he had another very good game. This suited Davies so much more, too, being the one bosh merchant in the backline. I think perhaps having both him and Te'o together blunts us a bit too much. And defensively we were much better. The pack in particular were much more alert to danger around the fringes. But it made a huge difference against 14 men...
What about next week? McGrath did put in a couple of decent tackles, but I'm just not sold on him as a Lions prop. Marler was excellent last time he played...just saying.
George has established himself well and truly. Accurate throwing, great tackling and defense, and those 2-3 runs a match are a great weapon.
AWJ does seem off the pace, but he did use his experience well on a couple of occassions. In the backs, Nowell on the bench is a waste for me. Better to have someone with a bit of pace. Seymour maybe?
Are you talking about TJ Perenara?
Marler is not really the answer to our current penalty woes..
Banquo wrote:Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
I saw that in real time, he didn't stop him getting to the tackle as when he released him TJ went to far to his left which was where he had been trying to go only for Murray to go straight, therefore he didn't stop him from being able to complete the tackle, Perenara just went to far to his left.
ALunpg wrote:Thought I would share this cut from the BBC website..
Discipline will 'kill' Lions
Lions assistant coach Graham Rowntree warned players are at risk of losing their places in the side because of ill discipline.
The Lions conceded 13 penalties in Wellington - 10 of which were kickable - and it was only Beauden Barrett's profligacy from the tee that kept the tourists alive.
"We have got to sort it out because it is going to kill us," Rowntree added.
"We have to sit them down and show them every day. We can't be doing this. We have to keep reiterating that point to the players.
"We can't lose a Test series on the back of some stupid penalties. That would be unacceptable. How do you live with that for the rest of your life?"
Mind, the numbers don't tell the whole story. One of Itoje's penalties was a comedy decision where he was given offside despite there being no ruck and no offside line (NZ had broken through and he tackled the man who received the offload from behind), one of Mako's scrum penalties was... interesting at best and the fact that Taylor got excused for a late tackle a minute before Mako did the same thing has been well discussed already. Conversely, we got away with a hell of a lot too - our defensive line was offside so many more times than we were pinged.
Given the inconsistency of the refereeing, I don't think there's too much value in picking out particular players for repeat offending. I'd focus more on the ones that were eminently avoidable, like the Murray high tackle, Vunipola's clear-out of Barrett, the tendency of our rucking to occasionally go missing, etc.
Stom wrote:So glad I was wrong about the selection. But it was the 2 changes to the pack that made all the difference. Both Warburton and Itoje were excellent, and key to the win. I could even go so far as to give Warburton the MoM award. Who did it go to officially?
I also thought that, after his Mako incident, Barrett was very tentative getting back up after assisting the tackler on George. And that contributed to Murray's try. So perhaps it was job well done for Mako there.
Was again impressed with Watson, he had another very good game. This suited Davies so much more, too, being the one bosh merchant in the backline. I think perhaps having both him and Te'o together blunts us a bit too much. And defensively we were much better. The pack in particular were much more alert to danger around the fringes. But it made a huge difference against 14 men...
What about next week? McGrath did put in a couple of decent tackles, but I'm just not sold on him as a Lions prop. Marler was excellent last time he played...just saying.
George has established himself well and truly. Accurate throwing, great tackling and defense, and those 2-3 runs a match are a great weapon.
AWJ does seem off the pace, but he did use his experience well on a couple of occassions. In the backs, Nowell on the bench is a waste for me. Better to have someone with a bit of pace. Seymour maybe?
Are you talking about TJ Perenara?
Marler is not really the answer to our current penalty woes..
No, he overran. Barrett might have been able to make a contribution in defence there, I thought.
Well, did Marler give away many pens last time he played? It didn't seem like it to me...
And, indeed, 0 pens conceded, and 0 tackles missed.
Banquo wrote:Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
Much too romantic a view that focuses overly on the beauty in rugby. The prosaic would look at Barret's rubbish kick on the NZ exit play that saw NZ defending with the Lions deep in NZ territory.
Stom wrote:So glad I was wrong about the selection. But it was the 2 changes to the pack that made all the difference. Both Warburton and Itoje were excellent, and key to the win. I could even go so far as to give Warburton the MoM award. Who did it go to officially?
I also thought that, after his Mako incident, Barrett was very tentative getting back up after assisting the tackler on George. And that contributed to Murray's try. So perhaps it was job well done for Mako there.
Was again impressed with Watson, he had another very good game. This suited Davies so much more, too, being the one bosh merchant in the backline. I think perhaps having both him and Te'o together blunts us a bit too much. And defensively we were much better. The pack in particular were much more alert to danger around the fringes. But it made a huge difference against 14 men...
What about next week? McGrath did put in a couple of decent tackles, but I'm just not sold on him as a Lions prop. Marler was excellent last time he played...just saying.
George has established himself well and truly. Accurate throwing, great tackling and defense, and those 2-3 runs a match are a great weapon.
AWJ does seem off the pace, but he did use his experience well on a couple of occassions. In the backs, Nowell on the bench is a waste for me. Better to have someone with a bit of pace. Seymour maybe?
Are you talking about TJ Perenara?
Marler is not really the answer to our current penalty woes..
No, he overran. Barrett might have been able to make a contribution in defence there, I thought.
Well, did Marler give away many pens last time he played? It didn't seem like it to me...
And, indeed, 0 pens conceded, and 0 tackles missed.
I don't watch a great deal of Marler but isn't he renowned for poor discipline, maybe he has reined it in, I still on't see him as being better than either of the other two options but each to his own.
The other thing I noticed was a potential forearm smash on AWJ, unnoticed by the officials, TMO included 23:48 far side of the ruck which sparked some afters:
ALunpg wrote:Thought I would share this cut from the BBC website..
Discipline will 'kill' Lions
Lions assistant coach Graham Rowntree warned players are at risk of losing their places in the side because of ill discipline.
The Lions conceded 13 penalties in Wellington - 10 of which were kickable - and it was only Beauden Barrett's profligacy from the tee that kept the tourists alive.
"We have got to sort it out because it is going to kill us," Rowntree added.
"We have to sit them down and show them every day. We can't be doing this. We have to keep reiterating that point to the players.
"We can't lose a Test series on the back of some stupid penalties. That would be unacceptable. How do you live with that for the rest of your life?"
Mind, the numbers don't tell the whole story. One of Itoje's penalties was a comedy decision where he was given offside despite there being no ruck and no offside line (NZ had broken through and he tackled the man who received the offload from behind), one of Mako's scrum penalties was... interesting at best and the fact that Taylor got excused for a late tackle a minute before Mako did the same thing has been well discussed already. Conversely, we got away with a hell of a lot too - our defensive line was offside so many more times than we were pinged.
Given the inconsistency of the refereeing, I don't think there's too much value in picking out particular players for repeat offending. I'd focus more on the ones that were eminently avoidable, like the Murray high tackle, Vunipola's clear-out of Barrett, the tendency of our rucking to occasionally go missing, etc.
Puja
I think you may want to watch that Itoje one again. Where it ends with Daly beating Read to the ball and touching down for a dropout, right?
Well, a ruck was, briefly, formed unfortunately. But that's neither here nor there, as the penalty was from before even then. He was slightly too quick on the previous phase, where he didn't make the tackle, the player to his left did. And he was offside, and Garces did note it (albeit a little late). It was as he came back from that attempted tackle that he tackled Retallick.
Marler is not really the answer to our current penalty woes..
No, he overran. Barrett might have been able to make a contribution in defence there, I thought.
Well, did Marler give away many pens last time he played? It didn't seem like it to me...
And, indeed, 0 pens conceded, and 0 tackles missed.
I don't watch a great deal of Marler but isn't he renowned for poor discipline, maybe he has reined it in, I still on't see him as being better than either of the other two options but each to his own.
For a couple of years, yeah, he lacked discipline. And he did when he first appeared. But between the two, and since he took time off over last summer, he's been a lot better, and not any less disciplined than anyone else, really.
Mind, the numbers don't tell the whole story. One of Itoje's penalties was a comedy decision where he was given offside despite there being no ruck and no offside line (NZ had broken through and he tackled the man who received the offload from behind), one of Mako's scrum penalties was... interesting at best and the fact that Taylor got excused for a late tackle a minute before Mako did the same thing has been well discussed already. Conversely, we got away with a hell of a lot too - our defensive line was offside so many more times than we were pinged.
Given the inconsistency of the refereeing, I don't think there's too much value in picking out particular players for repeat offending. I'd focus more on the ones that were eminently avoidable, like the Murray high tackle, Vunipola's clear-out of Barrett, the tendency of our rucking to occasionally go missing, etc.
Puja
I think you may want to watch that Itoje one again. Where it ends with Daly beating Read to the ball and touching down for a dropout, right?
Well, a ruck was, briefly, formed unfortunately. But that's neither here nor there, as the penalty was from before even then. He was slightly too quick on the previous phase, where he didn't make the tackle, the player to his left did. And he was offside, and Garces did note it (albeit a little late). It was as he came back from that attempted tackle that he tackled Retallick.
Technically speaking, it didn't end with a drop-out, but with Garces coming 45 metres and 2 minutes of attacking play back for the penalty because New Zealand apparently hadn't had any advantage. But yes, that's the one I was thinking of.
If the penalty was from the previous phase, then I'll apologise for being wrong - I thought it was from the tackle chasing back.
Did anyone notice Conor Murray failing to spot a 3 man overlap after Laumape dropped the ball in contact in the second half, I was screaming at the telly.
If he hadn't of had that excellent kick at the end and the try I would of move him to the bench for this Saturday, as it is I think he has vindicated himself to an extent.
It's funny as before the last 20 mins I was hoping Teo would come off the bench to stop Laumape and Webb on at 9, then I proceeded to feel slightly foolish. You would have thought that as NZ were playing without a 6 that the 9 would be looking to exploit the blindside a bit more.
Puja wrote:
Mind, the numbers don't tell the whole story. One of Itoje's penalties was a comedy decision where he was given offside despite there being no ruck and no offside line (NZ had broken through and he tackled the man who received the offload from behind), one of Mako's scrum penalties was... interesting at best and the fact that Taylor got excused for a late tackle a minute before Mako did the same thing has been well discussed already. Conversely, we got away with a hell of a lot too - our defensive line was offside so many more times than we were pinged.
Given the inconsistency of the refereeing, I don't think there's too much value in picking out particular players for repeat offending. I'd focus more on the ones that were eminently avoidable, like the Murray high tackle, Vunipola's clear-out of Barrett, the tendency of our rucking to occasionally go missing, etc.
Puja
I think you may want to watch that Itoje one again. Where it ends with Daly beating Read to the ball and touching down for a dropout, right?
Well, a ruck was, briefly, formed unfortunately. But that's neither here nor there, as the penalty was from before even then. He was slightly too quick on the previous phase, where he didn't make the tackle, the player to his left did. And he was offside, and Garces did note it (albeit a little late). It was as he came back from that attempted tackle that he tackled Retallick.
Technically speaking, it didn't end with a drop-out, but with Garces coming 45 metres and 2 minutes of attacking play back for the penalty because New Zealand apparently hadn't had any advantage. But yes, that's the one I was thinking of.
If the penalty was from the previous phase, then I'll apologise for being wrong - I thought it was from the tackle chasing back.
Puja
Was Itoje pinged for offside (and it might well have looked like a ruck to the ref, paint a picture and all that) or for the new fangled can't go within a metre of the halfback?
I felt the Lions had no chance in this series after the 1st test defeat, but they have turned things around, IMO they looked better before the red card, they seemed to lose the plot after that, lucky they managed to find their way again in the last 20.
They can win this series, it will come down to fine margins and taking chances as always, I hope we can take all ours and cut out the stupid infringements.
It would be great to see the all blacks humbled in their own backyard, especially at Eden park with its long unbeaten record.
Banquo wrote:Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
I saw that in real time, he didn't stop him getting to the tackle as when he released him TJ went to far to his left which was where he had been trying to go only for Murray to go straight, therefore he didn't stop him from being able to complete the tackle, Perenara just went to far to his left.
We will have to disagree that it didn't stop him making the tackle, but agree he'd over run. He looked like he was trying to change direction and faz slowed that down. Either way, it was illegal, and missed.
Banquo wrote:Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
Much too romantic a view that focuses overly on the beauty in rugby. The prosaic would look at Barret's rubbish kick on the NZ exit play that saw NZ defending with the Lions deep in NZ territory.
A key moment then, rather than the key moment....which I didn't say anyway.
Banquo wrote:Key moment missed on Murrays try....faz was obstructed supporting George, then lost it a bit and piled past the breakdown,grabbing tjp's leg and stopping him getting close enough to prevent the initial break.
I saw that in real time, he didn't stop him getting to the tackle as when he released him TJ went to far to his left which was where he had been trying to go only for Murray to go straight, therefore he didn't stop him from being able to complete the tackle, Perenara just went to far to his left.
We will have to disagree that it didn't stop him making the tackle, but agree he'd over run. He looked like he was trying to change direction and faz slowed that down. Either way, it was illegal, and missed.
I thought he pretty much ran through the space that he was being held into.
Numbers wrote:
I saw that in real time, he didn't stop him getting to the tackle as when he released him TJ went to far to his left which was where he had been trying to go only for Murray to go straight, therefore he didn't stop him from being able to complete the tackle, Perenara just went to far to his left.
We will have to disagree that it didn't stop him making the tackle, but agree he'd over run. He looked like he was trying to change direction and faz slowed that down. Either way, it was illegal, and missed.
I thought he pretty much ran through the space that he was being held into.
3:25 onwards gives you the best view:
......the key point being it was illegal, and you cant deny it hampered tjp, surely? If anything looks like pushed him further left.
Last edited by Banquo on Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Numbers wrote:Did anyone notice Conor Murray failing to spot a 3 man overlap after Laumape dropped the ball in contact in the second half, I was screaming at the telly.
If he hadn't of had that excellent kick at the end and the try I would of move him to the bench for this Saturday, as it is I think he has vindicated himself to an extent.
It's funny as before the last 20 mins I was hoping Teo would come off the bench to stop Laumape and Webb on at 9, then I proceeded to feel slightly foolish. You would have thought that as NZ were playing without a 6 that the 9 would be looking to exploit the blindside a bit more.
Lord Lucan wrote:[deleted]
It would be great to see the all blacks humbled in their own backyard, especially at Eden park with its long unbeaten record.
Is this the last NZ loss at Eden Park in 1994(?). Anyway, France win a 2-match series in NZ. Not an everyday event... This try - proof that truly great teams have great tries scored against them - NZ have 2 of the tops, with Gareth Edwards in the BaaBaas and this one, IMO the best ever:
